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Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

evilneanderthal posted:

Echoing what everyone else said. In all likelihood the engineering is garbage. The fact that they're offshoring means they're treating engineering like a cost center.

The only way I've seen an offshore arrangement even sort of work was like this:
  • VP/SVP of engineering were themselves indian
  • Offshore team was contracted by number of engineers (as opposed to features, work items, whatever)
  • VP of engineering flew to india to participate in hiring process
  • Offshore engineers could make product decisions and management would back them

Even then, it wasn't great. No way around timezones and communication issues.
Offshoring to India for highly collaborative dev work is really weird to me. Latin America is better in every conceivable respect.

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the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture





Vulture Culture posted:

Offshoring to India for highly collaborative dev work is really weird to me. Latin America is better in every conceivable respect.

truth. i supervised a colombian shop that we retained to do our android app and they did superb work. we're giving them our iphone app now too and, if i get my way, our webapp

b0lt
Apr 29, 2005

Vulture Culture posted:

Offshoring to India for highly collaborative dev work is really weird to me. Latin America is better in every conceivable respect.

At my previous job, we offshored to a bunch of really good people in Ukraine, and then Putin bombed their office.

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


b0lt posted:

At my previous job, we offshored to a bunch of really good people in Ukraine, and then Putin bombed their office.

Same. Last I heard the company hired the tech lead as a proper employee and shipped him over.

That team was built in the same "best practices" mentioned above, i.e. a colleague and I went over and personally hired a couple of the best candidates and let them be involved in building out their team, but the separation and communication is still a blocker if you don't build remote accessibility into all your processes.

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003

Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

Hell, my team struggles just with trying to sync engineers between Germany and the two US coasts, and this is with excellent people hired as FTE, really good video conferencing tech, and big travel budgets.

Having none of that plus a body shop half a world away sounds like a nightmare.

Monkey Fury
Jul 10, 2001

Pollyanna posted:

I know, right?


Huh. Is that so? I sent a response offering to set aside some time for a chat, so it's a lead worth chasing at least. I'll let you know how it goes.


Yeah, I'll be grilling them about the work environment. I hope it's good.

Few days late, but I've heard some pretty positive things about doing tech work for the city of Boston (I know the city's head data honcho). Great work/life balance, smart people, decent salary, interesting work. Probably worth keeping on it!

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS
Anyone have a salary range for a SE2 doing devops in Boston?

I consider myself pretty well paid but I got my raise today and my manager had a weird look on his face when he asked if I had any problems with the updated comp so I figured I'd ask.

If you don't want to share your salary that's fine. All I'm looking for is a range that's more reliable than Payscale or Glassdoor.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Blinkz0rz posted:

Anyone have a salary range for a SE2 doing devops in Boston?

What's a SE2 in "years of experience"? Like midlevel 3~5 years?

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS
Yeah

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.
My favorite part about GlassDoor's salary ranges is that they're perfectly centered around your actual salary when you're the only person who has submitted one. So I kept submitting the previous year's salary, to fool any prying bosses. :ninja:

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

CPColin posted:

One of my former coworkers sent me a link to an open position on her team at her new job. She says the work/life balance is good and the pay and benefits are "great for SLO" (classic). She goes on to describe that most of the company is using waterfall and there's a substantial design and review process whenever her team needs to requests changes in the common code.

This is the part that concerns me, though:

"The international team in SLO are mostly senior leads; most of the actual developers are in India."

Has anybody in this thread worked in a setup like that? How'd it go?

CPColin posted:

Not to invite comparisons to the Goon in the Well allegory, but I figure it wouldn't hurt to send my resume along and meet with my former coworker's boss anyway. If nothing else, it's more experience with talking about stuff professionally over lunch, right?

I've got this lunch tomorrow, so I'm working tonight on figuring out how to ask the right questions and give this job a fair shake. Unemployment benefits don't last forever, after all! (But I don't want to set myself up to be miserable, of course.)

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.

CPColin posted:

I've got this lunch tomorrow, so I'm working tonight on figuring out how to ask the right questions and give this job a fair shake. Unemployment benefits don't last forever, after all! (But I don't want to set myself up to be miserable, of course.)

I'm sure you'll do the needful.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


What is stopping me from quitting a job and THEN going job hunting? Is it always 100% necessary to have a job lined up before quitting, or is it just best practice?

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
Your budget; your confidence in finding a new job; your willingness to not have health insurance and other benefits; your ability to explain away the time gap in between quitting your old job and starting your new one to any future employers. That's about it really.

I've had a couple times where I left an old job without having a new one lined up, and it hasn't torpedoed my career. Just be ready with explanations at interviews.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Budget I can handle, its securing a job and insurance that bugs me. Insurance aside, I thought having a job made it easier to get one, so that'd be a reason to wait. Then again, I don't know how true that is.

If it gets intolerable, I'll just ditch my current place. It's gotten REALLY bad and is only going to get worse (e.g. reorgs in the pipes, management meddling etc).

sarehu
Apr 20, 2007

(call/cc call/cc)
What's so bad about it? You go to work, get money, little to no chance of getting impaled by a forklift. If you'd rather work somewhere else, go convince somebody else to give you money for your skilled labor. It's that simple.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.

Pollyanna posted:

What is stopping me from quitting a job and THEN going job hunting? Is it always 100% necessary to have a job lined up before quitting, or is it just best practice?

If you work in an industry or locale where it can take 6 months to find a new position, or if you have significant risk of ruin and no savings, it's good advice to play it safe. But if you're a single person with enough savings to cover a few months of no income and no children, it's not the end of the world (and it might make you feel better to eject from a bad situation).

I forget what the term of art for it is, but leaving your job counts as a trigger which gives you the option to buy insurance on your state's ACA marketplace. If your insurance needs are low ("what if I get cancer?") then you can look for an affordable plan on there.

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

Pollyanna posted:

Budget I can handle, its securing a job and insurance that bugs me. Insurance aside, I thought having a job made it easier to get one, so that'd be a reason to wait. Then again, I don't know how true that is.

If it gets intolerable, I'll just ditch my current place. It's gotten REALLY bad and is only going to get worse (e.g. reorgs in the pipes, management meddling etc).

If you're worried about having a gap in your insurance coverage, COBRA is usually available (though you'll be paying the full premium now which is usually pretty nasty if the plan you're on is decent).

I've quit before I had something lined up. In general I wouldn't recommend it, it's a source of constant stress that only builds as time goes on until you become employed again. But sometimes it's the right choice, and that's something only you can really evaluate.

Some people will look down on you for having any unemployment on your record, as if work is a virtue unto itself and you are somehow less for having not worked at some point in your life. You don't want to work for people like that anyway. Most won't care about a blip or two. If they ask you can give them something vague or even the truth (softened as much as possible so as not to sound angry or bitter).

For what it's worth, it's probably safer to quit without something else lined up in this industry, than in most others. You shouldn't have much trouble finding a new gig in any case.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005

fantastic in plastic posted:

I forget what the term of art for it is, but leaving your job counts as a trigger which gives you the option to buy insurance on your state's ACA marketplace. If your insurance needs are low ("what if I get cancer?") then you can look for an affordable plan on there.

It's also worth checking out short-term insurance plans if you are the only person covered and young/healthy. I've used eHealthInsurance.com (no affiliation) to check out various plans. As an example, my new job won't cover me for 2.5 months from the end of my old plan. Here were my options:

COBRA from old company (Cadillac plan): $650/m
Obamacare: $350/m
Short-term insurance (HDHP, 20% coinsurance): $100/m

It's worth noting that the short-term plans don't qualify as coverage under Obamacare, so unless Trump scraps the requirement, you must get qualifying insurance within a 3 month window. I never see the doctor and am (I think) pretty healthy, so I felt comfortable with the limited plan I picked. YMMV.

sarehu
Apr 20, 2007

(call/cc call/cc)
Pollyanna I strongly recommend getting a job before quitting, you'll have a much easier time being choosy over your next employer that way.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.
Getting laid off seems lit tho

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Getting laid off seems lit tho

Having done both, it's definitely the better option. Less storytelling.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

sarehu posted:

Pollyanna I strongly recommend getting a job before quitting, you'll have a much easier time being choosy over your next employer that way.
Corollary: 100% of the time, you'll find it's much easier to negotiate salary/benefits for a job you don't need in the first place.

Mniot
May 22, 2003
Not the one you know

Vulture Culture posted:

Corollary: 100% of the time, you'll find it's much easier to negotiate salary/benefits for a job you don't need in the first place.

This works when you're at a job that you're fine with going back to. If your thought process is "couldn't I just quit this shithole and figure things out later?" then you've already given up the ability to walk away from anything less than ideal.

What I've done in the past is give myself a timeline of 3-6 months -- a little bit less than you think it'll take to get fired -- then job-hunt hard and let your work slip as needed.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Mniot posted:

This works when you're at a job that you're fine with going back to. If your thought process is "couldn't I just quit this shithole and figure things out later?" then you've already given up the ability to walk away from anything less than ideal.

What I've done in the past is give myself a timeline of 3-6 months -- a little bit less than you think it'll take to get fired -- then job-hunt hard and let your work slip as needed.
They don't know that your BATNA sucks unless you tell them that it sucks.

Hughlander
May 11, 2005

Vulture Culture posted:

They don't know that your BATNA sucks unless you tell them that it sucks.

Pretty much this. I got laid off once and when interviewing I never once said I wasn't working.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll
Nap Ghost
I quit my last job without having anything lined up because I was having trouble interviewing due to the extremely life-invasive schedule (ops in a F100 non-tech is invariably poo poo), and being on-call and getting called often for nearly 2 years straight made me extremely irritable. This made the most basic of coding problems tougher to do, and even past that interview stage I was pretty irritable when it's not how really am even at a job I despise. Having burned out before and gotten a job despite the burn-out (and resulting in a relative backwards step in my career by every measure), I decided against interviewing during burn-out again. As a result, I normally keep 7+ months of expenses on-hand as cash and try to keep my eyes peeled for small gigs and am working on a better public project portfolio.

Reality
Sep 26, 2010
I quit my first job (at 26) for some free time and I have it as "Retired" on my resume. It's gone over well with companies I've interviewed with and I've had a few jobs since then.

I wouldn't retire again, but I don't regret it.

xpander
Sep 2, 2004
Anyone know anything about System Engineer roles at Amazon? Someone from the Edge Services team emailed me yesterday, and I'm wondering how they interview for those vs pure SDE jobs.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

Any good recommendations for learning C++? I used it in college but not so much since then and my new role is working on a C++ code base. I'm coming from years of Java so the basics are fine but I'm drowning a sea of const* auto&& std::strings that must be rvalues.

mekkanare
Sep 12, 2008
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Stroustrup's A Tour of C++ was pretty good, although I ended up not using C++11 and it's been a bit since I read it.
I'm a newbie myself, but isn't the double ampersand used for move semantics?

leper khan
Dec 28, 2010
Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

mekkanare posted:

Stroustrup's A Tour of C++ was pretty good, although I ended up not using C++11 and it's been a bit since I read it.
I'm a newbie myself, but isn't the double ampersand used for move semantics?

Yes, move uses rvalue references. I'm not aware of other useful things to do with them, but I also don't currently spend most of my time in C++.

csammis
Aug 26, 2003

Mental Institution
Well I earned my "got laid off" badge last Friday. Hooray.

My wife and I have been considering a move to the Pacific NW - we're in Kansas City currently. Does anyone have experience with hunting for relocation-type jobs while laid off? Is it wiser to find a stable position locally and then do the larger move planning or am I right in figuring that now's as good a time as any for a moonshot?

Related, anyone know of goon-approved employers of C++ developers in the Portland or Seattle areas? :v:

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Getting laid off seems lit tho

After the first what-the-gently caress shockwave passed it actually is looking pretty good. Like JawnV6 said it's completely explicable resume-wise, plus you don't have to spin any veiled criticism of your current employer's shenanigans.

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.
Had an in-person interview at a nice place, but one of the interviewers wasn't there because the interview day had been rescheduled once, due to weather. I interviewed with this last interviewer the day after via videoconference and in my opinion, it did not go nearly as well as any of the in-person interviews.

Kicker: this last person is the director over the job function that I am interviewing for a role in.

I already think it is plausibly reasonable but just wanted to take the temperature of the wise oldies: would it make sense to send a nice email to the hiring manager (different person, with whom I had a very nice interview among other interactions) talking mostly about how much I enjoyed the interviews etc. (which I genuinely did) and tack on a bit that (at least lightly) addresses how I think I screwed up the interview with the most important person I spoke with / how I did myself a disservice by talking about X instead of Y?

(Hint: I think I want this job.)

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

prisoner of waffles posted:

Had an in-person interview at a nice place, but one of the interviewers wasn't there because the interview day had been rescheduled once, due to weather. I interviewed with this last interviewer the day after via videoconference and in my opinion, it did not go nearly as well as any of the in-person interviews.

Kicker: this last person is the director over the job function that I am interviewing for a role in.

I already think it is plausibly reasonable but just wanted to take the temperature of the wise oldies: would it make sense to send a nice email to the hiring manager (different person, with whom I had a very nice interview among other interactions) talking mostly about how much I enjoyed the interviews etc. (which I genuinely did) and tack on a bit that (at least lightly) addresses how I think I screwed up the interview with the most important person I spoke with / how I did myself a disservice by talking about X instead of Y?

(Hint: I think I want this job.)

Can't really hurt to demonstrate enthusiasm, and if you are sure enough of your error, you can try addressing it. Shows you care, that you can improve on your own, etc. Just don't go admitting to a bunch of stuff that they might not have noticed.

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

xpander posted:

Anyone know anything about System Engineer roles at Amazon? Someone from the Edge Services team emailed me yesterday, and I'm wondering how they interview for those vs pure SDE jobs.

Was it a system engineer job or a system development engineer job? The former requires minimal coding, whereas the other requires you to meet something close to an SDE.

Rudest Buddhist
May 26, 2005

You only lose what you cling to, bitch.
Fun Shoe
CTO pushed back my announcement to the team that my last day will be the 31st. This is the third time it's been pushed back.

Should I just start telling people? He keeps using this "let's keep this between us" thing every time we discuss my departure.

I've been training up someone to take on my current workload the last two weeks so I feel like this shouldn't be too much of a surprise to everyone.

edit: We've lost a large amount of developers in a short amount of time. I guess he's just worried about morale? Still annoying.

Rudest Buddhist fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Mar 20, 2017

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

Rudest Buddhist posted:

Should I just start telling people? He keeps using this "let's keep this between us" thing every time we discuss my departure.

[...]

edit: We've lost a large amount of developers in a short amount of time. I guess he's just worried about morale? Still annoying.

What would be wrong with being straightforward with your CTO? Tell him why you want to let people know you're going and ask why he wants it to be delayed. If you leaving will be a morale event, telling people at the last second probably won't make it any better.

Rudest Buddhist
May 26, 2005

You only lose what you cling to, bitch.
Fun Shoe
Yep, agreed. Going to bring it up this afternoon.

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JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

csammis posted:

Well I earned my "got laid off" badge last Friday. Hooray.
:woop:

csammis posted:

My wife and I have been considering a move to the Pacific NW - we're in Kansas City currently. Does anyone have experience with hunting for relocation-type jobs while laid off? Is it wiser to find a stable position locally and then do the larger move planning or am I right in figuring that now's as good a time as any for a moonshot?
If you can stand the wait, I'd go for the moonshot now. Interviewing and searching takes effort. I've found it a lot harder to balance a full-time job and all those stresses while actively looking.

The "stable position" would ideally be some contracting thing where you can sling code for a few hours a day and bounce out to the coast when necessary both short and long-term. I couldn't walk into a salaried job knowing I was on the way out, but I suspect this principle would falter if my health care depended on it.

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