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"Mother Asumu" sure is a translation choice they made. I assume that's supposed to be along the lines of Auntie Rosa vs Rosa-ba-san, but it makes her sound like a nun. Also, Endless Nine is a good song. eta: Update on the previous page.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:14
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 13:12 |
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Yeah it's Asumu okaa-san. Not much else they could have done with that, I guess.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:31
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Erg... Not... Friday... Yet... Painful...   Well, there we go: Battler is still the grandson, so yes, he still qualifies. But if he isn't Asumu's son, then that would mean that CottonWolf's theory about his being Kyrie's son is right and he got switched somehow... or TCL is right, and Rudolph was an even greater philandering rear end in a top hat than we thought. Or one of the other siblings had a child unbeknownst to us... But I can't think about that right now, because... I feel too sad!  I have feelings, feelings about these video game characters!Ugh, emotion suppressed for years suddenly let out in a torrent at the last minute always gets me. You can just see all of the hidden anguish in Ange just flying out- the hole left by her family, the abuse by the one who was supposed to take care of her, the torments by her classmates, just everything, over 12 years... dare I ask how the voice acting is, here? And then her end...  So... does that mean never survived passed her suicide attempt in her fragment? That her entire quest, that whole part of the narrative, was just some vision she experienced before dying, like a "life flashes before your eyes" thing? Or was it something like in Mage: The Ascension and its treatment of paradox: that the only think keeping her both in her universe and wherever Battler is is that Battler doesn't know about her, because his sister can't be a cute four years old and a cynical teenager at the same time? Either way, being torn apart by red hot pincers...nope nope nope.And then, Beatrice... ProfessorProf posted:
Tender Child Loins was right: Beatrice is playing a monster. She didn't really want to cause all this suffering, but she feels she has no choice... or perhaps she thought she wanted to hurt Battler in the beginning, but turned againsty that? Or wanted to hurt everyone except Battler, but he came back?... No, the end of this game proved that this was always about Battler- there is something she must do, something she has to get from Battler, something Battler should remember but doesn't. And if he doesn't give it to her... then she wants to die. Something the game keeps coming back to is that it is possible to both deeply love and deeply resent someone... and that the dichotomy can drive you mad. And the way she punishes Battler for uncreativity, for not considering all angles, for gullibility, for letting other people control the narrative... And the slow, steady motif of betrayal, which steeps all of her games. Battler betrayed Beato and she will not let him go until he remembers... or makes his betrayal complete and kills her. How did he do it, Beatrice? Was it a promise, or confidence, made in callow childhood and broken by the drama of adults? Did he say he'd return on his white horse; would he do something for you then? Did you share a secret? Share a kiss? What could be so awful that you would make compact with demons to bring about an impossibility? Why put someone you clearly have strong feeling for through the worst hell you can imagine, and place yourself at the exit, declaring "The only way out is through"... It's the same. She is trapped in a cycle of madness and violence she cant escape, so she turns to that which locked her there to liberate her: love.
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Mar 9, 2017 16:56
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resurgam40 posted:dare I ask how the voice acting is, here? We're about to get a bunch of videos in a row, but I could add another one for Ange's confession if there's enough demand.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:34
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Also, it's a bit late, but the profile page has been updated. Welcome back, Battler.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:44
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ProfessorProf posted:We're about to get a bunch of videos in a row, but I could add another one for Ange's confession if there's enough demand.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:47
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lotus circle posted:I'd like to add to the starting pool of demand. Doesn't need to be immediate though. Yeah, I'll third this.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:03
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All right, video incoming probably tonight.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:25
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idonotlikepeas posted:Please kill me quickly. Poor Beato. Also, that was all in red, so we can take it to be a true statement about her mental state. So, presumably, "Why am [I] unable to love any[one?]" is the key line here. Who does that fit? Unless there's some massive false consciousness here, I think we can rule out Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Kinzo, Shannon and George. Jessica and Kanon's relationship is very odd, especially from Kanon's end, so I don't think they're out of the running. We don't know enough about Kumasawa, Nanjo, Genji and Gohda's private lives to say, but we can pretty well rule out Gohda, as he wouldn't have been there 6 years ago. Krauss and Natsuhi's relationship is pretty cold, so perhaps there's no love there. Rosa's a candidate. All the parents seem to genuinely love their children though, so that doesn't seem to fit. I guess the Rosa/Maria relationship is ambiguous enough that maybe that could not count as love for the purposes of the red. We know Battler's not Beatrice. Maria's too young and not strong enough to have done it. I'm inclined to think it was one of the younger ones, since presumably that's who Battler would have mainly interacted with 6 years ago, so my prime suspects have become Kanon and Jessica, but Kumasawa, Genji, Nanjo and Rosa are all at least worth looking at.
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Mar 10, 2017 00:06
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It's me, the Witch Doctor LOU BEATRICE
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Mar 10, 2017 00:17
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Is that stuff in English or Japanese in the original? If it's Japanese, what does it look like? (I'm curious if more or less of it is obscured.)
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Mar 10, 2017 00:48
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Added to the previous update: Sacrifice
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Mar 10, 2017 00:52
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Not news to anyone at this point, but the voice actress who plays Beatrice is good. The twisted scream at the end of that video was something special.
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Mar 10, 2017 01:22
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idonotlikepeas posted:Is that stuff in English or Japanese in the original? If it's Japanese, what does it look like? (I'm curious if more or less of it is obscured.) You're not potentially missing anything if that's what you're asking
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Mar 10, 2017 01:23
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CottonWolf posted:Not news to anyone at this point, but the voice actress who plays Beatrice is good. The twisted scream at the end of that video was something special.
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Mar 10, 2017 01:48
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ProfessorProf posted:
 Onii-Chan~
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Mar 10, 2017 03:29
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oath2order posted:
bannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbanned bannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbanned bannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbannedbanned (jk, it's actually beautiful!) edit: 
EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 04:25
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idonotlikepeas posted:Is that stuff in English or Japanese in the original? If it's Japanese, what does it look like? (I'm curious if more or less of it is obscured.) Japanese in the original, and it's about the same either way, as tiisai said. That said, it's probably worth noting that the lines swap between two different "I" pronouns. "Please kill me" and "just kill me and [bring] my story to an [end]" both use "watashi," while "try to stop me" uses "warawa" (which Beatrice uses).
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Mar 10, 2017 05:16
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Hmm. I understand that watashi is fairly standard, but what does warawa mean? I've never heard of that one before. Wikipedia suggests that it's an archaic way for a noblewoman to refer to herself, like if she were calling herself "Dame Beatrice" or something. Is that about it?
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Mar 10, 2017 05:38
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idonotlikepeas posted:Hmm. I understand that watashi is fairly standard, but what does warawa mean? I've never heard of that one before. Wikipedia suggests that it's an archaic way for a noblewoman to refer to herself, like if she were calling herself "Dame Beatrice" or something. Is that about it? Basically, yeah. The important takeaways from using it as a pronoun is "super antiquated" and "upper-class". The closest equivalent in English would be slipping into the royal "we". For an idea of the tone intended, some other examples include Queen Zeal from Chrono Trigger, Ruto in Ocarina of Time, and the dubbed version of Luna in MLP. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 05:40
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Pretty much if a woman is using "warawa" in Japanese media, they're saying they're old as balls/immortal. Also the kanji for it literally means "concubine." 
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Mar 10, 2017 05:45
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I assume Battler's first order of business is to say how he might still be Kinzo's grandchild? I don't think he necessarily has to be Rudolf's son. In 1967, Rosa sees Real Dead Beatrice die, and "around" 1968 the boat stops going to Kuwadorian. 18 years later, the murders happen. RDB being the daughter of Kinzo's actual mistress and herself having a kid has been my bete noir for a while, and now I note that kid could have been the person we've known as Battler. Assuming Asumu actually had a child which lived around the same time, the children could have been switched, with Asumu's daughter being the mysterious lady haunting the mansion, who could be quite angry that the mother who threw her away died without ever being punished (again you can see me being over-influenced by recent events). So, why switch kids? I don't have to answer that, and I don't really want to, but suffice to say I think Kinzo wanted to "capture Beatrice," (I just realized from his perspective RDB really might have vanished into thin air. Better to believe in magic that than to believe she'd drowned or been eaten by wolves or whatever, eh?)
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Mar 10, 2017 08:59
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Battler most certainly does NOT have to say how he might be Kinzo's grandchild. Ange already stated in blue how he could be such, while still following the red from before, and Beatrice did not refute it in red. Remember, blue truth has to be countered with red, or it is taken to be the truth. Ergo, Battler is Kinzo's grandchild because he's Rudolf's son. And yes, Beatrice technically has till the end of the game to do so, but there's basically no reason for her to wait in this particular instance if she was capable of refuting it. There's also the whole Ange calling him older brother in red, and the reverse from Battler, though I suppose you could claim he was adopted or something to get around that particular statement (not taking other statements into account). Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 09:56
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  October 5th, 1986, 11:50 PM  BGM: Voiceless Please, someone explain in a way even I can understand... what happened yesterday. I was in the kitchen of the mansion, grabbing some food without permission. If you open up that massive business-class refrigerator, you can find anything. You can eat and drink as much as you like. Even if the typhoon didn't clear up for a week, I'd have more than enough to eat. With wine in one hand, I was helping myself to some dry-cured ham. I wonder just how expensive this wine and ham are. You ingredients are out of luck too. If only you'd had Gohda-san to cook you, you could've been reborn as much more incredible food... I looked at the clock. Very soon, it would be 24:00. October 5, the second day, would end. The insane October 4, yesterday, seemed like a lie. That's how much... nothing had happened after that test thing. Nothing happened.  Nothing happened at all. I wanna start demanding a refund on all the time and energy that tension stole from me, because after that, for an entire day, a full 24 hours... Nooothing happened. So surely, nothing's gonna happen now.  There, I was given a strange test to determine the Successor to the Headship or whatever. I gave a serious answer in my own way, but it somehow hadn't meshed with the other side. Beatrice got pissed for no reason and fell silent. I yelled at her to try and say something, but she gave no answer. When I asked where Maria was, she just told me to go to the chapel and left. To tell the truth, it was an anticlimax. No matter what kind of weird test you give, at least tell me whether I've passed or failed. Are you trying to say 'Thanks for coming, your results will be mailed to you later' or something? Quit messing with me. Anyway, I then headed to the chapel. After failing their tests, both George-aniki and Jessica were killed. I couldn't let Maria get killed too. Also, I might get a chance to catch some person trying to kill her. As a little kid, I often heard from Jessica that you'd get in trouble if you went near the chapel, so I'd never been there, but I at least knew where it was.  I thought this might be someone telling me to open the door, but after trying all the keys, I found that none of them fit. I also called Maria's name, but there was no answer whatsoever. I searched around the chapel, but there was a limit to what I could do in the pitch black with just a flashlight. I realized that this key bundle might be a set of master keys, which could make it possible to open the door to the mansion. I found no sign of Maria, so I returned to the mansion.  However, it's amazing how good humans are at adapting. The inside of the mansion must still be wrapped up in that smell. However, I grew completely used to it and stopped minding it. It didn't seem any worse than any old house where someone had burnt some meat. At first, I was bewildered by the stench, but I decided to head to the dining hall for the time being...  It was the remains of Aunt Natsuhi and the others who'd become the first victims. Half of each head had been completely split open, and it was so gruesome that even without knowing a thing about examining corpses, I could say that they were 100% dead... And on top of that, the remaining halves of their faces were left like normal, so it was even easy to identify them. Really convenient corpses, these were. And in addition to those six bodies... was one more.  She lay next to Aunt Rosa, as though sleeping alongside her. I cried. At the death of an innocent young girl. And at the cruel way my dad and the rest had died. I raced through the mansion swinging the hat-stand spear, yelling 'Come out here, bastard'. But I couldn't find any trace of anyone else. Thinking they might be planning to hide somewhere and attack me from behind, I went around searching for hiding places, sometimes growing more cautious, and sometimes intentionally letting my guard down in various ways, but in the end, not even a kitten appeared... Then, morning came. My tension and fatigue combined with my drowsiness, making for the worst kind of dawn. Humans are pretty incredible. Even when a murderer might been hiding somewhere, we prioritize drowsiness and fatigue over our own lives. By that time, I was starting to feel pretty ridiculous. After all, for a full six hours before dawn, I'd walked around the mansion, yelling at the culprits to show themselves. My search had been a careful one, and I'd tired myself out and let my guard down. Even so, no one came to attack me. Basically, I lost patience with them and figured they could do whatever the hell they wanted... The boat won't come until the typhoon passes. They said on TV that it won't pass until tomorrow, so I've got another full day today. Lazing about lost its interest, and even though I knew it would probably make the police mad, I decided to play detective a bit.  BGM: At Death's Door The six who had been killed in the beginning really were pitiful. The weapon used was probably a gun. Maybe their heads were split by something powerful, like a magnum bullet or a shotgun. It was a reasonable theory to hold. Compared to that, the seventh corpse, Maria, had died in a much better and cleaner way. At a glance, I could see no external wounds and didn't understand how she'd been killed. But by her mouth were traces of bubbles that she might've spat out, and it looked like a typical death by poisoning that you might see in a TV drama. Wasn't Maria called out to the chapel and given a test...? So why was she in the corpse-filled dining hall, lying next to her mother, dead...? Even if the cause of death was poison, who gave it to her? Her clothes weren't disturbed at all. It's hard to imagine that she was forcibly pushed down and given an injection of poison. It's probably better to assume that she was given a capsule of poison or something and made to swallow it. But compared to the scattered and violently mutilated corpses in this room, Maria's corpse was too clean. If they had a gun, they only needed to pull the trigger. But poisoning, whether by having her drink it or by an injection, would take a lot more effort. Considering the culprit's brutal nature, you'd think Maria's death alone was given special treatment. Why was only Maria given a sleep-like death? True, being killed is always a pitiful thing, but for some reason, Maria's death alone seemed very courteous to me... Both of Maria's hands were joined on her chest, as though the dead person had put them there herself. Did Maria do that herself before dying...? Isn't this usually something done by someone else after the person dies...? As though sleeping with her mother, whose head was half crushed, Maria dozed in peace. For some reason, that contrast really bugged me. Including the direct cause, it's probably safe to say that Maria's death is shrouded in mystery... And more than anything else...  After the first six were killed, five more fell through 'pitfalls' and were captured. What are pitfalls? Those things that suddenly open and you fall through them, right...? The room had a solid floor with a carpet that looked dignified, if a bit worn out. No matter how you looked at it, it was single piece. If a pitfall had opened up, there would have to be a seam just in that place. And, if there had been some trick like a pitfall, wouldn't it creak when you walked on it?? No matter how much I walked around, feeling the carpet, I just couldn't imagine that a pitfall was hidden here. Anyway, it'd be one thing if a single person fell, but a full five people did. By putting together everyone's stories, each one of them had fallen from a different location, so at the very least, there had to be five separate places with pitfalls. So what does this mean? Was this room actually made with pitfalls across the entire floor, so by pushing a button, you could open up a pitfall in the location of your choice, some kind of contraption like that?? That kind of ridiculous mechanism would be surprising even in a ninja mansion. But if Dad and the rest had heard about this, I wonder if they'd say 'I wouldn't put it past Grandfather to do it, to make it'. ...At any rate, I didn't learn anything more from the dining hall. Do the pitfalls not exist? Or do they exist, but I just can't find them, amateur that I am? I can't say for sure. Since they claimed that the pitfalls were there, I can't ignore them, even if I can't find them...  BGM: Witch of the Painting He had been called out to the arbor in the rose garden... and, probably, shot in the forehead with a gun. Jessica had been called to her own room on the second floor of the mansion. The door to her room was locked. But that wasn't a problem at all, since I had a master key.  ...But after the dining hall, I was used to corpses, so I'd built up a bit of an immunity. The phone receiver was loose and dangling. Had she been killed while still on the phone with me? Jessica was leaning against the wall right next to it, with half of her head split open. As far as I could tell by glancing at the scene, it looked as though she'd been killed while on the phone. In that case, had the culprit been right there before her eyes? I hadn't gotten that impression when listening to Jessica's voice over the phone. I'm pretty sure Jessica said... 'They got me'. It's probably best to assume that she'd already received a fatal wound at the time of the phone call. That's right, and she also said this.  ...From what I could tell by looking at Jessica's corpse, there were no wounds on her other than the damage to her head. Could she have had an injury serious enough to make her prepared for death, and then died halfway through the phone call? But the way she'd talked on the phone made me think that she'd escaped harm for the time being. You shouldn't be able to have a casual conversation over a phone if the culprit's right before your eyes. So, did the culprit come in partway through the phone call and kill Jessica...? No, that can't be right. After all, this room was locked. ...Wait, that doesn't tell me anything. If the culprit stole a master key from one of the victims, locking the door would be meaningless. But she had no external wounds other than her head. In that case, should I assume that the fatal wound she was prepared to die from and the actual external wound that damaged her head were two different things, and that both of them were made to the same part of the body? In other words, Jessica was struck severely to the head... and received an incredibly bad wound. Then she called me... and either lost consciousness or died while on the phone. Then, the culprit came and damaged her head again, something like that. After being called to this room, Jessica was attacked by the culprit and received a serious injury. Then, the culprit thought she'd been killed... and went away for the time being. But Jessica miraculously started breathing again... and called me with what would become her dying message. Then, the culprit realized that they'd failed to kill her... and rushed back to deliver the final blow after Jessica fell unconscious from massive blood loss... ...That seems to add up, more or less. Except for how Jessica was able to accurately predict the nature of that final blow. And, there was one more thing that bugged me about the phone call from Jessica. Jessica had said this...  ...She said it almost as though she'd witnessed George-aniki being killed. But while you certainly could see the rose garden from the window in Jessica's room, and you could even see the roof of the arbor where George-aniki had been summoned, it was very far away. Add on the fact that it was the night of a typhoon, and it's very hard to imagine that she was able to witness everything that happened by the arbor from this window. And more than anything else. Jessica left before George-aniki. So she shouldn't have known that George-aniki's test took place by the arbor. Why did Jessica know... that George-aniki had been killed...?  BGM: Stupefaction It was in one of the old guest rooms, at the back of the first floor. In the past, before the construction of the guesthouse, the relatives had spent the night in these. Kyrie-san's situation matched Jessica's perfectly. She'd probably been killed during her phone call with me. The receiver was hanging untidily, and Kyrie-san lay crumpled in that corner. But the way she had been killed was very different from Jessica. Her head wasn't smashed. Instead, a stake with an occult design was buried into her forehead. It was so gruesome, so I pulled it out. After pulling it, I realized that this might get me into trouble with the police later. So, a little too late, I set it down by Kyrie-san's side. Its tip was sharp and stained with enough blood that it must have penetrated fully to the brain. I didn't know what kind of metal it was made of, but it was about as heavy as a paperweight. Certainly, if you were stabbed all-out with something like this, it might cause a terrible wound. ...I... probably knew what that stake meant. It's one of those. The style of killing from the fourth twilight onwards in the witch's epitaph. It's probably that 'gouge with a stake and kill' thing. However, a human skull is very firm. No matter how much someone mustered their strength, could it really have been pierced so neatly...? No. By my reasoning, this stake wasn't the cause of death, but had just been used to damage the corpse after death. She was probably killed with a gun or something, like George-aniki, and the stake had been stuck into the hole left by the gun. Thinking of it that way makes it easier to accept.  As she said on the phone, even though she was holed up inside a locked room, Kyrie-san was being attacked. In fact, this room had been locked. Also, she mentioned a golden thread or something flying in and attacking her. In fact, there were four places around Kyrie-san's corpse with holes that could have been caused by some kind of attack. But... a golden thread attacked her... through the keyhole...? I looked at the door from Kyrie-san's perspective. If it had been one of those old keyholes you see in old mystery movies, where you can peek through to the other side, then it would've clearly been possible to stick something through it. But even though the doors in this mansion were old-fashioned, the locks were the familiar, average cylinder style that you could find in any normal house. In other words, they weren't constructed in a way that would let you penetrate through them. So no matter how thin an object you might try to stick through the keyhole, it's unthinkable that something penetrated through from the outside and attacked. ...A cylinder lock. And a keyhole...? But despite that, Kyrie-san definitely said that something like a golden thread had flown in through the keyhole, spun around while aiming for her, and attacked her... 'A golden thread attacking through a keyhole'. I couldn't understand what it meant at all. But, even so... Kyrie-san probably predicted that I wouldn't be able to understand all this. And it wasn't just Kyrie-san. Jessica said it over the phone too. No, since the very beginning, from the time we talked with Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san and got the phone call from Uncle Krauss's group, everyone has said the same, consistent thing.  They'd been shown that right before their eyes. These weren't tricks or fakes. There was no choice but to believe it. With one voice, they had all said that. When the mystery woman calling herself Beatrice appeared, even I had pretty much believed that she was a real witch and might start summoning goat monsters right and left. However, after being left alone for a whole day, my feeling of tension had faded completely. I was now able to think that something so stupid definitely couldn't be true. Did they lose their heads a little in an extraordinary situation where their lives were exposed to danger... and mistakenly think that a witch was attacking them with magic? ...But multiple people gave the same kind of testimony, and on top of that, none of their opinions conflicted each other. If it had just been a single statement, I'd be able to suspect that they just didn't see what they thought they saw, but doing that now is pretty... difficult...  ...Even though he'd escaped the dungeon of Kuwadorian... and somehow made it this far by a secret underground passage, he had been killed. Buried into the gruesome cross-section of his half-crushed head... was a stake with an occult design, like the one that had been buried into Kyrie-san's forehead. And in this situation, it was very hard to imagine that this stake was the weapon used. He had been killed with a powerful gun like the six in the dining hall, and after death, had been jabbed with a stake like Kyrie-san. I wonder if the golden threads that Kyrie-san spoke of attacked Uncle Krauss too. Does there exist some kind of tool, like an endoscope, that's very thin but can be moved about at will...? And that can also attack people...? No way. I've never heard of anything like that. But even so, if this fact had been revealed to one of the relatives, maybe they'd say 'I wouldn't put it past Grandfather to make it'... Since I can't deny the existence of golden thread X that can be moved at will and attack people, I can either accept that this mysterious weapon exists, or else... I'll have to accept that this was a murder committed with magic. To find the next corpse, I had to go out through the back door and search around outside a bit. Behind the mansion, in the wild-grown bushes that were almost swallowed up by the forest, there was something like an old well...  BGM: Dead Angle Both corpses had their heads smashed. And, though they weren't stuck in, there were stakes lying right next to each damaged head. Each corpse was atrocious, but having to look directly at Shannon-chan's lovely face, which had been half blown away, was very painful... Then, there was the well. I'd heard that inside it was a secret underground passage to the mysterious mansion, Kuwadorian. By this time, I'd begun to think that Beatrice and her accomplices might've used this underground passage... and left for Kuwadorian. Even though there had apparently been at least ten of them, I hadn't seen a trace of anyone. It seemed very likely that they'd already escaped to a different location. There's the typhoon. They can't go out to sea. It goes the same for the forest. There's no way they could traverse such a deep, uncultivated forest on foot. In that case, they had only one place to go. The mysterious hidden mansion, Kuwadorian. Through the secret underground passage at the bottom of the well...! By this time, I had entirely lost my fear of being killed if I happened to come across the enemy. Don't gently caress with me...! This time I'll storm into your mansion...!  The old well had a firm cover on it. The cover was an iron grill. The gaps between the bars were perhaps 20 centimeters across. You could peer inside, but it really wasn't something a human could pass through. If I hadn't known better, I wouldn't have thought it anything more than a simple cover to prevent falls. But from what Kyrie-san had told me, I knew that its purpose was to prevent intruders from entering the secret underground passage in its depths...! But the cover was extremely firm and rigid, and no matter how much I pushed or pulled, I couldn't even get close to opening it. I couldn't find any obvious lock. It might be sealed by some mechanism. But no matter how much I investigated it, I couldn't find anything to release it. The biggest piece of information Kyrie-san had tried to give me, gambling her final moments, was the underground passage in this well...!  I had an idea. After all, I'd seen the various tools in the gardening shed when we'd locked Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san in there. But the shutter to the gardening shed was locked. On top of that, the key was with Gohda-san, who was dead on the inside. In other words, this gardening shed was a closed room. There's no way to open it from the outside. In that case, I've got to break the shutter. There has to be a tool for that somewhere. Kinda feels like I'm going in circles here.  BGM: Corridor in the Sands of Purgatory The boiler room was dimly lit, humid, smelled horrible, and on top of all that, was incredibly creepy. But there were several large tools there, and I managed to find a fire hatchet and some massive wire cutters. And... Grandfather's corpse. No, strictly speaking, I should probably say that I found a burnt corpse of a person who was probably Grandfather. Someone's corpse had been stuffed into the blazing fires of the boiler... However, by coincidence, I was able to notice the number of toes on the corpse. Both feet had six toes. That's right, I think I heard it from Dad some time long ago. Something about Grandfather having polydactyly, with extra toes. According to old Ushiromiya family tradition, it seems that those with extra fingers or toes had some kind of good fortune and were treated as a good omen. ...And because of that, Grandfather was selected to be the Successor or something... But I wonder if I can be certain this is Grandfather's body just from the number of toes. After all, Grandfather was supposed to be the leader of the group of culprits. I didn't have a clue why he'd get stuffed into a boiler in a place like this and die.  ...If it really was Grandfather, did that mean that the leader of the group of culprits wasn't Grandfather, but that Beatrice after all...? Grandfather was used because he was convenient... and was then thrown away? Unfortunately, it didn't look like I'd be given a chance to hear Grandfather's side of the story... Now that I had obtained a tool, I thought about rushing to take on the cover to the well, but I decided to break the shutter to the gardening shed first. I had plenty of time to kill anyway. I figured I should check on the condition of Gohda-san's and Kumasawa-san's corpses. I hit the shutter with the hatchet, breaking into it, stuck the wire cutter into the crack, and scissored it around, opening up a hole. Then, I faced Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san's corpses once more... As a result, I learned a new fact.  BGM: Lure ...And on both of their foreheads were signs that they'd been shot with a gun. The loop seemed longer than a normal noose. On top of that, the length was different on each to match the height of each person. In other words, the lengths had been adjusted so that both Gohda-san, who was tall, and Kumasawa-san, who was short, had their feet solidly but barely on the ground. Also, while the ropes carried both of their weights as their heads lolled, both of them had some slack below their knees. This meant that if they'd stood up with these loops around their necks, there would've been some extra length. In other words, these loops wouldn't have been that great for hanging people. The direct cause of death was probably a shot to the head. It was gruesome. Their insides were still dripping out from those gaping holes, staining their faces a deep red. It's probably best to assume that they were then hung, pulled up, and left exposed like that. If they'd been shot with a gun, they would probably have been lying down on the floor. If that had been the case, you wouldn't have been able to tell they were dead even if you peeked through the window. The mountain of stuff would've gotten in the way, so if they'd been lying down, they would've been hidden. To make the deaths of these two known to the rest of us who couldn't go inside, they would've had to hang them like this, making it visible from the outside. ...Was this... done to get back at us for thinking that those two would surely be safe if we left the key with them...? I wonder where the shutter key we gave Gohda-san, which should've ensured their safety, is now...  In other words, the gardening shed had been a closed room after all. And that gave rise to another question. Because this can't be explained by a hanging. If they didn't commit suicide, then those nooses were set up by the culprit. ...It might have been possible to shoot them through the window, but it's really unthinkable that someone could've tied two loops to the beam from the outside. And furthermore, there's no way they could've lifted up the heavy corpses. In other words, to do all of this, they would've had to go inside. But the key was in Gohda-san's pocket, and the shutter had been locked. In other words, the gardening shed had been a closed room. Gohda-san had said that there was only one key to this shutter. But is it possible that there was a copy... and that the culprit was in possession of it...? If we're allowed to theorize that there actually was a duplicate of the gardening storehouse key... and that Gohda-san just didn't know about it, then this isn't even close to a closed room. But why is it that, despite the fact that almost all of the other corpses were shot to death and left almost completely alone, just these two corpses were intentionally hoisted up? I couldn't help but feel something a bit odd about that...  There were 18 people on this island. I'm here, and there are 16 corpses. Kanon-kun's corpse is the only one I haven't been able to confirm. According to Kyrie-san, he had been killed while climbing out of the well... and had fallen down into it. So with the well closed up like this, it's impossible to check. I tried shining a flashlight through the bars, down into the darkness in the depths of the well. But it seemed that the jet-black darkness had no intention of showing me its depths with a light of that level... It looked like I'd have to break the bars after all. Using the hatchets and things I'd dragged from the boiler room and the gardening shed, I tried breaking the cover of the well. But the metal bars were extraordinarily sturdy, and breaking them wasn't easy. I hit them with the hatchet over and over, until my hands started feeling weird, and eventually gave up on breaking them... It's impossible. If they were at least wood, I might've been able to break them. But this metal... That's right, there's no way you can slice through metal bars like butter with a human's strength. ...I can't even begin to understand... that story about how Kanon-kun cut through metal bars. I heard that a light like a red laser beam grew out of his arm... and that he sliced through the metal bars like he was cutting through butter. Cutting through metal bars like butter...? And what's with the red laser beam? Does that mean he secretly had a burner on him or something... and used that to burn through the bars...? Still, just what kind of laser... could cut through metal bars like butter? It almost sounds like the kind of laser beam you'd find in those robot anime I'd loved as a kid, doesn't it? Does something like that actually exist...? And how did Kanon-kun get that laser beam...? No matter how much I want to ask him, he's already been killed. Plus, even his corpse is now in the depths of the well, beyond this cover. If Kanon-kun could slice through metal bars, I'm sure he could handle this metal cover in a single swing. It... feels just like the closed room Gohda-san was locked in while holding the key. Only one person can open the door, but they're locked inside... If only I had that power of Kanon-kun's, I'd be able to do something about this cover myself...  BGM: Minute Darkness Kyrie-san told me to believe in witches, and I even met an insane woman calling herself one. Could Kanon-kun possibly be... a human on the witch's side...? Or else... the culprit? ...What the heck. Am I gonna start treating him like the culprit... just because I can't find his corpse?  ...Very well, I couldn't bear having you push all the crimes on Kanon and building a human culprit theory that way. I will guarantee it with the red...   So, my whispering in red does not reach the piece you... But it did reach you, right...?  ...Golden threads that attacked through key holes. No, we even have testimony that something gold flew around the dining hall when the first six died. The two might've been the same weapon. Then there was the closed room murder of the garden shed, and the laser beam that could cut metal bars. And that wasn't all. There was much, much more... like the group of goat monsters, the story of a witch who could create pitfalls just by snapping her fingers, the rabbit-like demons who had fired golden threads... I think there was more, but each part was all screwed up. I couldn't possibly accept it... and was forced to suspect that it was some kind of trick or mistake. ...But why in the world had everyone spoken with one voice, saying the same thing without contradictions in their testimony...? It's not only the magic. There's Maria's mysterious death. Why Jessica knew that George-aniki had been killed. The mysterious burnt corpse that I couldn't confirm really belonged to that drat geezer. And more, and more. All stuff I don't get...! I tilted the wine bottle up and gulped. I don't have a clue what's going on. After dinner last night, the kids were chased out and told to go back to the guesthouse, and then there was a massacre in the dining hall. Kyrie-san and the rest were dropped through pitfalls and captured. Then, Jessica and George-aniki were called out to take a test or whatever and killed. Even though Kyrie-san's group was able to escape the dungeon somehow, all of them got killed in the end. And at the very, very end, even Maria was killed, leaving me all alone. In short, I did nothing except stay locked up in the guesthouse. During that time, a huge incident occurred and ended. What can I call it except incomprehensible? I don't have a clue anymore!  BGM: Dead Angle  "You show me your true form yourself...! I won't run or hide, so come at me with arrows or bullets or whatever...!"I haven't gotten any sleep since yesterday, so I'm incredibly sleepy. You wanna kill me, go ahead. I decided to return to the guesthouse and boldly rest in a bed.  The big clock did too. It was almost exactly 24:00. Then, the sound of the bell rang out, proclaiming that 24:00 had arrived... As I listened, I looked up at Beatrice's portrait. Exactly 24 hours ago, I met you. What were you trying to say...? And where did you go? Just who in the world are you...? Golden Witch, Beatrice. I haven't solved a single one of the riddles surrounding you...! Show yourself... And fight me...!!  BGM: Dir Like a guest of honor finally appearing, she showed herself on the landing at the top of the big staircase...  "So, you finally show yourself... I've been kept bored for a whole day."  "Yeah. I was bored, after all. I did a heck of a lot of it." "...Ange... was a good piece." "Don't you... speak Ange's name." "...She appeared through a miracle, sacrificed herself, and gave you the tenacity required for certain victory." "Don't you...speak Ange's name." "...That brutal death was something you needed. If you hadn't seen that death, you wouldn't have grown serious. Without the wake-up call of Ange's ill-fated future, your tenacity for victory would not have been born." "I told you not to speak Ange's name...!!" "...In short, she was a necessary sacrifice. Otherwise, an anger great enough to kill me would not have been born in you. The rivalry between us cannot be destroyed." "drat you, Lady Bernkastel, it's more fitting to call that a trump card than a piece. No matter how much a piece acts, it does not stray from the board. But no matter how much power a trump card wields, it is always thrown away after it is used." "Ange was truly a good trump card for you." At Battler's angry roar, Beato finally stopped talking. "...You know, I don't have time to play around in a place like this anymore. Even a tie will keep Ange waiting." "So, I'll break through you, take my family, and go back home!! I won't waste a second playing witch games with you!!" "In that case, what should you do? You know, don't you?" "Yeah! I'll beat you down!! I'll blast away all witches, magic, illusions and delusions!! Come on, let's get started!!! I won't let you trick me again!! Resume the game, okay? I'll tear apart the witch's veil concealing the outright lie you are!!!" "You talk too much. All you have to do is honestly say 'I'll kill you'." "Yeah. If those are the words you want, I'll say them. This is the first and last wish of yours that I'll lend an ear to." "...I thank you." "I'll..." "..."  
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Mar 10, 2017 14:20
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The profiles have been updated. And with that, humans of the thread, it is exam time. You've done a lot of hard work during this Episode trying to answer the questions of who and why, but now, we must set that aside and address how. Were the murders committed by magic, or by human hands? Does Battler's theory that an already-dead Kinzo allows an 18th extra person to slip onto the island hold, or is Kinzo's existence assured? How can all the mysteries of Rokkenjima be explained without the existence of witches? Don't expect to be let off with a passing grade for merely explaining Episode 4. This battle will span all four game boards, to force one side or the other to surrender for all eternity.
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Mar 10, 2017 14:36
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Just caught up with the last updates. Ughhhh so heartwrenching! resurgam40 already said exactly what I was thinking during that scene with Beato making the weird faces: more evidence on the "Beatrice is a mask of bravado" pile. The mask is cracking, and the effort that she puts in to maintain that façade is becoming more strenuous. She's running out of steam, so Battler (and we) had better figure this poo poo out, and fast. I'm glad that Ange was able to help her brother out, but a small part of me is disappointed that she essentially got fridged. I take solace in knowing that IRL Ange is off having murder adventures of her own, and hopefully coming to terms with the truth in her own way. I just hope that this isn't the end of her role in the story; I was just getting into her as a character! So back to the murders. I have two main observations. I noticed that the "gouge the X and kill" section of the ritual murders was really executed halfheartedly in this take. The stakes are only lodged in Krauss's and Kyrie's heads, and the rest are just lying next to Nanjo and Shannon. We've seen the latter before in episode 2, with Shannon in Natsuhi's room. It just seems really off, especially in light of the Stakes as characters. They make a point (lol) of being stab-happy, so it's hard not to notice when the stakes are just lying in proximity to the corpses. Why does that happen? You can't even make the case for them falling out of the appropriate wounds, since there's no indication that the corpses were maimed in the relevant areas. This seems like decisive evidence for the stakes in previous games being used to cover gunshot wounds, in case anyone was doubtful of that. It also seems like the culprit kind of lost their relish for the game, much like how Beato faded away after Battler failed his test. Kanon's corpse goes missing yet again. Yes, it's easy to explain his absence away with the grate, but how and why would he be down there if it's impossible to open? When Kyrie's group escaped, there was no mention of a grate. And I doubt there would have been time to bolt a heavy metal grate onto the well in the time between the escape and Battler's discovery of the scene. So my thought is that no one came through the well. Instead, they could have been running from that point towards the mansion (or away from it; there's no indication that anyone was going in a particular direction). If that's so, where is Kanon? His death was pronounced in red, but in a game where name death is a thing, that's near-meaningless. His other persona could very well be the culprit.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:27
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Tender Child Loins posted:Kanon's corpse goes missing yet again. Yes, it's easy to explain his absence away with the grate, but how and why would he be down there if it's impossible to open? When Kyrie's group escaped, there was no mention of a grate. And I doubt there would have been time to bolt a heavy metal grate onto the well in the time between the escape and Battler's discovery of the scene. So my thought is that no one came through the well. Instead, they could have been running from that point towards the mansion (or away from it; there's no indication that anyone was going in a particular direction).If that's so, where is Kanon? His death was pronounced in red, but in a game where name death is a thing, that's near-meaningless. His other persona could very well be the culprit. We still have no conclusive evidence that anyone was ever in Kuwadorian. If someone earlier's suggestion that the killer was just holding people at gunpoint and making them read from a script down the phone to the people in the guesthouse is right, they could have just set it up to make it look like people were fleeing towards the house from the well. That works particularly well if the entire point of doing that is to "prove" that Kanon is dead. Everything else is exactly as was explained, so why wouldn't Kanon's body obviously be down the well? E: Kanon doesn't seem like a good candidate for the third episode's murders though, because he's in the weird daisy-chain murder rooms. And I still don't have a solution for that puzzle. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 18:39
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CottonWolf posted:E: Kanon doesn't seem like a good candidate for the third episode's murders though, because he's in the weird daisy-chain murder rooms. And I still don't have a solution for that puzzle. Both Kanon and Shannon are "resurrected" by Beatrice in episode 3, for the express purpose of leading Jessica and George to their deaths. Kanon's body is not confirmed again after that point. Perhaps he was placed in the chapel in that chain in order to make his body less accessible/visible to the survivors. That way, he would be free to leave and do whatever. I feel like there's something more to this than "Kanon is the culprit," though. I still think Shannon is Beatrice and she is the object of Battler's "sin." But I do believe Kanon, Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are heavily involved in this, across game boards.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:59
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Tender Child Loins posted:I feel like there's something more to this than "Kanon is the culprit," though. I still think Shannon is Beatrice and she is the object of Battler's "sin." But I do believe Kanon, Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are heavily involved in this, across game boards. If we assume that "Why can't [I] love any[one]?" from the end of the update before last is valid red text, I don't think Shannon makes sense as Beatrice, unless she's just going along with George's advances out of a sense of obligation. I'm with you on Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa being suspicious in the extreme though.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:19
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CottonWolf posted:If we assume that "Why can't [I] love any[one]?" from the end of the update before last is valid red text, I don't think Shannon makes sense as Beatrice, unless she's just going along with George's advances out of a sense of obligation. I mean, "Without love, it cannot be seen" -- in the context of the blue ocean -- could be set up for a subversion. Shannon, as furniture -- that is, as someone heavily psychologically conditioned into suppressing her emotions by being a servant of the Ushiromiyas -- might be trying to feel this thing called "love" through great effort -- after all, the ocean is gray, not deep blue, and magic isn't real; without love, magic cannot be seen like the false color of the ocean can't be seen. Shannon knows that, for humans, the ocean is blue, but she still sees gray, and so she chooses the ideal person on the island, i.e. nice guy, not her brother, not an adult, theoretically some situation involving the Battler from years ago and that white horse thing but then he's gone so whoops it's George, to cargo-cult summon the emotion of love by going through the motions. This isn't to say that I necessarily believe it's Shannon, because I feel like there are a lot of logistical problems involved, but I don't think we can rule her out on the basis of feeling love. Poltergrift fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 19:30
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... Okay. I've had my suspicions on who Beatrice is for a little while now (I thought I had some idea before, but revelations during Ep4 have solidified my thoughts in a certain direction), to the point that I am almost certain- about 90% so, perhaps more- that I know who it is. The why part is significantly more iffy with the information we have, and built on inferred knowledge and hearsay, so I am not comfortable with more than 50% certainty there... but as requested, I will set that aside and examine the much more juicy question of how the murders were completed, a question the flummoxed me many times. How could one person, armed with mundane tools and an iron will, blow through the mansion and kill all these people in locked rooms and leave no trace? How is such possible without magic or a miracle, without being an act of God or the work of a witch? Well... that starting point is part of the problem, because something the novel has been particularly reinforcing of late but was always there since the beginning... is that in order to make a world, you have to have two. (The French have a term for this, known as folie a deux, "a madness shared by two," which comes up as an explanation as to how more than one can experience clearly supernatural or impossible phenomena, such as abductions or ghost sightings; humans are social creatures after all, and the sharing of powerful belief, even if it is false or delusional, is something humans do and are good at doing.) The importance of two people comes up again and again as a recurring motif, and it leads me to a conclusion that the idea that the culprit could be one person is fundamentally wrong. To be more precise... Beatrice is not one person. Beatrice is a conspiracy, containing of at least two, and potentially up to five, people. I name these people: Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa. Between the master keys they share, their knowledge of the property, their control of the entire situation, and Nanjo's position as the only medical expert on the island, they can manipulate any part of the story as they see fit, in a way the other characters cannot. Krauss, Natsuhi and Jessica have knowledge of the island, but not a complete one, as there were places the servants go regularly that they do not, and that covers all of the other siblings and cousins as well- even if Rudolph, Eva, and Rosa have sufficient motive to carry out the murders, they lack the appropriate knowledge and unity to do so. Oh, yes, they have a conspiracy of their own against Krauss, but there is no reason to suspect anything more than extortion as an aim... and Krauss and Natsuhi have a conspiracy of their own with Nanjo and Genji As implied members, but again, it concerns Kinzo, not murder. But there is no guarantee that that is the only conspiracy that Genji and Nanjo are part of, and if Krauss' conspiracy is, as some have suspected, to hide from the other siblings that Kinzo is dead or otherwise infirm... well, that provides an interesting angle that the Beatrice conspiracy can use to pretend that Grandpa is alive and well and doing crazy murders. And, if they have access to the signet ring... then the way it moves throughout the story is explainable without magic too. That is my explanation: Without love, the truth cannot be seen, true, but without another person, a world cannot be made. If a single man or woman claims to be able to turn out the lights with a snap of their fingers, and cannot do that, s/he looks like a fool or a lunatic. But if they had someone else near the power source to cut it at the exact moment of the snap, then they are a "witch." With multiple partners, it is possible to turn out the lights, to start a fire, to cause a man to die in a locked room, to even "raise the dead"...When impossible things were done in this story, we focused on the individual's ability to shape events, and we have to think bigger... and we have to see that some delusions are not built by one person's hand, but several. With this new hypothesis in mind, let us examine the four murder-games and see if even the incompetent I can explain them using entirely mundane methods. The First Game: -First mystery: the letter. How did the letter with the signet ring and umbrella get into Maria's bag to get to the table? This one is fairly easy, especially if Kinzo is dead: The letter was forged, and the envelope had the signet ring taken from Kinzo's body and dropped in the first envelope. The other two letters were probably forged and distributed at this time too. The first letter was given to Maria, along with an umbrella, by "Beatrice" in the garden. As for who "Beatrice" is here... I suppose anyone could have done it within the time frame (this is a full 3 hours, after all, from 3 to 6 PM), but Genji and Nanjo were otherwise occupied for most of that and while Kumasawa's whereabouts were unknown at that time, I am given to Shannon and Kanon here, and not just because they both could pull off the figure  - they were both uniquely situated to easily be Beatrice here. Recall that Shannon was with the kids on the beach up until just before the rose incident, until she excused herself and didn't really give a tangible reason why- that gives her plenty of time to prepare the letter and the envelope, and maybe an actual dress with which to fool Maria. And Kanon was the one who got the kids for dinner in the guest house, and as far as anyone knows wasn't anywhere from 3 to 6- AND he was the one who brought up Maria after the cousins had put the incident out of their mind ("Wasn't Maria-sama with you...?), which seems like a deflection to me, so he could have done the thing dress and all and stashed it somewhere in the amount of time he had. So my gut says that Shannon or Kanon is the Garden-Beatrice.-Second mystery: The First Twilight. First of all, the bodies: I know we've been kicking around the possibility that the bodies in the garden shed were faked, and indeed we don't really have any guarantee of death for those people, but my feeling here is that all of those bodies are real, and definitely dead. In the first place, all of those injuries are pretty hard to fake as described; you can do some pretty amazing things with make up, but to the extent that they were damaged without any known makeup artists on the island...? Does not seem likely somehow. Laying aside the motives, it is entirely possible that they were found, killed, and dragged to the shed, and had their faces defaced there- or alternatively were shot in the head, but the lack of bulletholes literally anywhere makes me discount that. Since blood was found in the dining hall in the morning, it is possible they just went there after a certain time and killed whoever was left. But that's only four people -Krauss, Kyrie, Rudolph, and Maria... perhaps they were expecting Eva and Hideyoshi to be there as well, or perhaps, after breaking for the night after 12AM, these four decided to reconvene and discuss something without Eva and Hide (I find myself liking this theory, but have no theory as to why... perhaps there is yet another conspiracy going on, or they noticed something suspicious about Hide and Eva and wanted to talk about it; Rudolph did confide to Battler that he was going to be killed), or perhaps were called there at a certain time by something (I have no proof of that). Whatever: the point is, they've two bodies too few, and we need six in order to fulfill the epitaph build the legend of the witch. I believe that Gohda was chosen as a matter of expediency; he was shown in the servant's room along with Genji and Kanon, so it's entirely possible that they killed him then, to fill out the quota or because he saw or heard something he shouldn't (and always publically scoffed at the idea of the witch, so his death lessens the "toxin"). But what about Natsuhi? I believe she was meant as a victim, but uh-oh: she hung one of Maria's protective charms on the door handle. Shannon was on the beach when Maria handed those charms out, so if she was the one who was supposed to kill Natsuhi, she'd know about that and know that a death while protected by a scorpion would weaken the "legend", so I believe that she killed herself- or possibly went to the shed and had someone else do it for her, to fulfill the quota. -Third mystery: the Two That Are Close. This one gave me trouble before, but that was when I was relying on the testimony of people I now find suspicious. Everyone I suspect is now creating Beatrice are controlling this narrative from their viewpoints, so the only things we can trust are true are: Genji being sent to fetch Eva and Hide at (or around) 7PM, Natsuhi coming to the crime scene a bit later, and the kids arriving shortly after. We have only Kanon and Genji's word for it that the door had been locked with a chain from the inside...and we have only Kumasawa and Kanon's word for it that there was a sigil painted on the door after they went to get the wire cutter and cut the lock. If those testimonies are now considered false, then there's no need to deal with windows or people hiding in wardrobes, because this is no closed room. My hypothesis then, is such: Kanon and Kumasawa painted the door and affixed the letter beforehand, and afterward knocked on the door to alert Eva. After Eva opens the door, Kanon kills her, kills Hideyoshi in the bathroom, and places the stakes, with Kumasawa's help (Genji has gone back to tell Natsuhi that "dinner is ready" around this time). Then, Kanon closes the door, locks the chain, cuts it from the inside, opens it again, and both Kumasawa and Kanon make a show of looking around once Natsuhi has arrived. Bam: a locked room created without it's being actually a locked room. -Fourth Mystery: The Boiler Room: again, regarding Kanon's "death", all we have to go on is the testimony of people I now find untrustworthy. Although the stench of Kinzo's corpse is now noticeable by all, it's Kanon and Kumasawa who "went on ahead" to investigate. People have already pointed out the discrepancy of those guys going together, but only Kanon seeing Beatrice or being attacked, Kumasawa arriving later. Besides, the thing that happens here is something of a leitmotif of the central theme: Kanon stands heroically against Beatrice's will to protect his loved ones, and he is struck down through treachery and Beato's might. At the time, I took it as real at the time, because the sentiment behind it and the feeling of betrayal it evokes seemed true, but knowing what I do now, I have to question his death here as I now question Shannon's death in the First Twilight: is it really a murder, or a sacrifice to build the Legend of the Golden Witch and send a message? So this is my hypothesis: Kumasawa stabbed Kanon in the chest as he held the axe aloft, to create the illusion of resistance. She stabbed him in a non-lethal manner so Nanjo can dress his wounds and later give a false diagnosis of his death. After his corpse is isolated, Kanon rises again to prepare the final, physical meeting of Beatrice. As for Kinzo, he was placed in the boiler before the start of the game, and sometime last night, someone turned on the heat. -Fifth Mystery: The Last Letter and the Final Sacrifices. Here, again, the letter part is easy: once the conversation turns to the picture, one of the four left- Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo and Maria- place the envelope on the table when everyone's back is turned. It could be any of them, but I don't think it's Maria, because she serves a different purpose here: rereading this scene and what she says, it really does sound like somebody told her this is what would happen when the letter was placed- that the "unbelievers" would turn on longtime servants, friends and relatives because they "lack love" and don't believe in Beatrice. The entire incident is created with the understanding that the meaning of the sigil on the letter will be found and doubt will be sown. So the letter is planted, and the four all go down to the Parlor where "Beatrice" (Kanon in disguise) waits. The rest of the story goes like this: Genji locks the door to the room, and Beatrice "appears" (comes out of hiding). She bids everyone to sit, and tells Maria she has done a good job. And now, for the "Legend" to be complete, her last task is to turn and face the wall and sing a song until the others come, with her eyes closed so the "toxin" doesn't interfere. And then she kills the other three, or they kill each other, and the same method to crush the head is used, and then Beatrice locks the door with "Kanon's" master key Then she waits on the stairs for Natsuhi to come, and then, when she draws her weapon, Beatrice draws her own (or had it out) and kills her. This concludes the First Game, and anything after the final score count seems ancillary to the central mystery, so I wont include it here. Whew! I was going to move on to the other games, but this is pretty extensive, what with going back and going over everything with a fine toothed comb... but now I think I need a break. The other games are forthcoming.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:39
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I'm otherwise planning to drop the first half of the final battle tomorrow, but do you guys want an extra day to theorycraft before Battler begins his attack?
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Mar 10, 2017 21:41
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Aw man, it's time for the final battle of pre-Chiru Umineko. I'm as excited for people's analyses as I am for the upcoming update. You can think of going into this fight as Umineko's equivalent to a detective calling everybody into the parlor. The clues are out in the open, and the narrative has finished toying with you for now; all that's left to do is set the book aside for a moment and consider what's going on.
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Mar 10, 2017 22:27
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resurgam40 posted:-Fourth Mystery: The Boiler Room: again, regarding Kanon's "death", all we have to go on is the testimony of people I now find untrustworthy. Although the stench of Kinzo's corpse is now noticeable by all, it's Kanon and Kumasawa who "went on ahead" to investigate. People have already pointed out the discrepancy of those guys going together, but only Kanon seeing Beatrice or being attacked, Kumasawa arriving later. Besides, the thing that happens here is something of a leitmotif of the central theme: Kanon stands heroically against Beatrice's will to protect his loved ones, and he is struck down through treachery and Beato's might. At the time, I took it as real at the time, because the sentiment behind it and the feeling of betrayal it evokes seemed true, but knowing what I do now, I have to question his death here as I now question Shannon's death in the First Twilight: is it really a murder, or a sacrifice to build the Legend of the Golden Witch and send a message? So this is my hypothesis: Kumasawa stabbed Kanon in the chest as he held the axe aloft, to create the illusion of resistance. She stabbed him in a non-lethal manner so Nanjo can dress his wounds and later give a false diagnosis of his death. After his corpse is isolated, Kanon rises again to prepare the final, physical meeting of Beatrice. I don't have any red quotes to counter this but reading it gave me another theory on this. Since there was a scene of Battler chasing after someone after Kumasawa called everyone over. Kanon was dead before the first twilight. And The Kanon we know is an imposter that placed the corpse of the real Kanon in the boiler room with a stake in his chest. Just feel like throwing this out there, also it seems pretty convenient that Kinzo is extra crispy whenever Battler sees him so he died before the first twilight too probably maybe. That's all I cooked up from your post, I might come up with some more if you post something on Episode 2. Cause I don't even remember 90% of Episode 2 honestly. 
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Mar 10, 2017 23:24
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Right, time to theorise on the daisy-chain room. It's been driving me insane. Warning - This might end up being mainly red text wordplay. The circumstances: Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Genji, Kinzo, and Gohda are all killed and locked into rooms. The key to the ith+1 room is locked in the ith room, each of the servants is carrying their own master key. This proceeds for the entire loop, forming a closed room of 6 rooms. The known red text: There are 5 master keys, one for each servant. All the doors and windows in the six rooms are normal. No device exists that can lock them without a key. Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa - these six are all dead. There is no one hiding in the six rooms. The six died instantly. Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms. The six were not killed by traps. None of the six committed suicide. It is also strongly suggested that: None of the six died an accidental death. - Beatrice was cut off by Renove before she could say it in red. At least one of the six's deaths was not a homicide. - Beatrice refused to repeat it in red that "The six deaths were all homicides" it was implied to be because it was untrue. Somewhere in these propositions must be the answer. If we can find the hole here, the how should simply fall out. Homicide - noun 1. the killing of one human being by another. A broad definition, combined with the word kill, that does not imply any active intent on the part of the killer, which severely limits movement on this front. It rules out cases such as euthanasia and death by neglect as well as the more obvious methods of killing. Basically only leaving us with natural death, which includes things like terminal illness, infectious disease and heart failure. Unfortunately most of these are ruled out by "The six died instantly", as most of these are delayed deaths. Therefore we are forced to reinterpret one of the red truths to be metaphorically rather than literally true. Tender Child Loins coined the term "name death" earlier for the death of a persona rather than physical death. So "Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa - these six are all dead" seems like a good position to start for this reinterpretation. Irrespective of what it means to die, the deaths must still be instant to adhere to "The six died instantly". However, there are no temporal statements in the red text at all, so we can use the old trick of letting things happen outside of when they're implied to. This leads to our "Name death" theory. I'll go through how it works now. The Name death theory This theory works equally well with Shannon and Kanon and requires Nanjo as an accomplice. It doesn't work with any of the other servants, unless we want to hypothesise that Genji's non-servant name is not Genji. To avoid undue specification, I'll call them X. Right: At some point prior to the murders X is in conversation with a person whose motivation was to fundamentally change their psyche. It's easy to hypothesise that their goal was to stop them from being furniture. It's thematically nice if it's Jessica or George talking to Kanon or Shannon respectively, but ultimately it's irrelevant. The point is that there has to be a motivated interlocutor in this theory, elsewise this would have counted as a accidental psychic name death, which while not stated in red, we are pretty sure is wrong. A single phrase is uttered that is so damaging/convincing, that instantaneously X realises that they are not furniture. This act causes the personality X to die, and be replaced with their pre-servant personality.This must be a single powerful phrase causing a sudden effect, elsewise "The six died instantly" is violated. This death meets the requirement for X to be dead in the red text "Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa - these six are all dead". Once we've leapt through this loophole, the rest of the murder becomes trivial. On the night of the murder, X corners each other murderee individually and kills them. Their bodies are placed in the requisite locations and the doors locked. X finally enters their own room, and locks the door with their master key. They proceed to make their body look as though they have been killed and wait to be discovered. When the bodies are found Nanjo falsely describes X as being dead. Time passes. X leaves their room to continue their bloody work. This hinges on the nuance of the word hiding in the red text "There is no one hiding in the six rooms". There is no attempt for X to hide themselves. There is concealment, but the concealment is of the situation rather than a specific person. Assuming that this meets the requirement; Voila, one murder committed by humans through heinous torture of the English language. I can't find a working 19th person version of this murder, if Battler's right and Kinzo's dead at the start. Maybe someone else can come up with one? E: Edited to remove references to the 19th person theory, which I thought I had then fell apart midway through (and general neatening up). CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 23:59
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You guys have come so far in your reasoning. I'm so proud. It's all pointless and useless since it was the witch and you'll have to accept her magic sooner or later, but at least you're all trying. 
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Mar 11, 2017 00:22
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Lord Koth posted:Battler most certainly does NOT have to say how he might be Kinzo's grandchild. Ange already stated in blue how he could be such, while still following the red from before, and Beatrice did not refute it in red. I meant that he would have to take some kind of action in the game, even if it was just to say "yeah, what Ange said." Beatrice could deny it at first, he could respond with a similar theory...whether a scene like that developed or not, I assumed he would have to act on his intention to be accepted as the opponent called for. Oh, and of course he's Ange's older brother: she grew up with him. That red statement doesn't establish anything about his biological parentage. quote:Remember, blue truth has to be countered with red, or it is taken to be the truth. I simply disagree. Red statements must be true, blue statements must only be possible and not involve magic. I will not accept undisproven blue statements as the actual truth of the matter merely on the face of their being blue and undisproven.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:30
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Doc Hawkins posted:
Then you are ignoring one of the rules of the game.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:01
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ProfessorProf posted:The profiles have been updated. And with that, humans of the thread, it is exam time.  ProfessorProf posted:I'm otherwise planning to drop the first half of the final battle tomorrow, but do you guys want an extra day to theorycraft before Battler begins his attack? I'd play it by ear tomorrow. See if we still seem to be discussing things and use your own judgment.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:16
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Doc Hawkins posted:I simply disagree. Red statements must be true, blue statements must only be possible and not involve magic. I will not accept undisproven blue statements as the actual truth of the matter merely on the face of their being blue and undisproven. In this cat box, whatever isn't denied becomes the truth. You can disagree all you want, but that's not how this works.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:19
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