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ImpAtom posted:I liked Jessica Jones but admit it's not a fun or 'exciting' show and I can understand a lot of why people dislike it. Luke Cage and DD2, to echo what people said, are good for the first half and then welp. Honestly if they'd just... stick to a single good character arc defined by their strong villain they'd be fine instead of trying to do too much. Future Netflix shows would be well served to not have a set episode number. Iron Fist's big problem is that it's his origin story, and honestly that's among the weakest parts of his history. Give it 6-8 episodes instead of 13 and I have a feeling a lot of the problems would be fixed. Of course the showrunner is apparently guilty of high crimes(I never watched Dexter), so it would still have a giant albatross around it's neck. Iron Fist is orphaned and brought up in K'un-Lun, becomes the Iron Fist, leaves to find vengeance, finds the man responsible but pities the poor fool too much to kill him. A ninja kills the man responsible, Iron Fist is blamed for the killing, Iron Fist clears his name, and then good things happen after he finds a best buddy in Luke Cage.
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Mar 11, 2017 03:17
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I don't think polarizing is the right word for Jessica Jones. It seems like everybody agrees on the shows weaknesses, but some people like it's strengths enough to make up for it, some people don't, and some are in the middle.
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Mar 11, 2017 03:19
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Gyges posted:Iron Fist's big problem is that it's his origin story No it's not. Have you read... anything?
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Mar 11, 2017 03:20
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Guy Goodbody posted:I don't think polarizing is the right word for Jessica Jones. It seems like everybody agrees on the shows weaknesses, but some people like it's strengths enough to make up for it, some people don't, and some are in the middle. One of the main complaints I've seen is that JJ and the gang should have just sniped Killgrave in episode 3 and been done with it. People who generally like the show disagree that that's a weakness, and is in fact a point being made. Aphrodite posted:No it's not. Yes, I haven't seen it though. Everything other than Coleen appears to be poo poo, but the origin story for Iron Fist is the weakest of the 4 and into that hole they appear to have tossed shovels and various other pieces of excavation equipment. Gyges fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 03:38
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JJ's problem is that it spent at least a quarter of the series doing the equivalent of having Killgrave jump through a window under fire Hitler-style because they had an episode quota to meet. The conclusion the series reached could have been done earlier and with much less convoluted bullshit needed. JJ had a great core but its writing team clearly had no idea how to write that story for the number of episodes requested in an actually decent manner.
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Mar 11, 2017 04:58
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Oh Snapple! posted:The conclusion the series reached could have been done earlier and with much less convoluted bullshit needed. "The Marvel Netflix Story"
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Mar 11, 2017 05:00
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Cythereal posted:The first four episodes are great. Daredevil vs Punisher is an excellent premise and delivered well with excellent casting, great character chemistry, and solid writing. Even the first four episodes have their problems. Punisher in the first episode and his actions take almost entirely off screen. It was as if they just didn't have the budget for a realistic shootout.
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Mar 11, 2017 05:43
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I just rewatched DD2 and I still can't understand why people love the Punisher so much while I despise him. It's weird, I hate him in the comics, liked all three of the movies, and can't stand him in the series.
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Mar 11, 2017 05:56
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Jessica Jones was good all the way through, though I think it suffered from having an OP villain who peaked in Episode 10 and who couldn't really escalate any further without becoming a cartoon. I cared about the characters, completely bought the drama, and enjoyed all the character work that the episodes involved. Arguments about killing Killgrave off partway into the season miss the point the show was making about violence and cycles of abuse, and furthermore miss a very basic plot point: Jessica isn't just trying to neutralise Killgrave, she's trying to prove he even has superpowers in the first place. A failure to do that would mean that she'd have condemned a woman to a lengthy prison term for something she didn't do, and, subtextually, represented a failure for Jessica to escape self-condemnation for the crimes she committed when under Kilgrave's mindcontrol. It has problems, of course, but I think it's by far the strongest actual show to come out of Netflix Marvel. On the other hand, Luke Cage was complete rubbish. Episodes bled into each other with little in the way of structure and distinguishing content, the show fundamentally couldn't handle the fact that it has an overpowered hero driving the action (Mariah's off quoted speech about drowning Cage is remarkable not only for how logical it is, but also for the fact that no-one then tries to do any of the things she suggested!) and instead has characters repeat their various character motivations and interactions quite a number of times while winding down the clock on the season's length. The reason the early episodes are better than the later ones isn't because the plot is better in the early episodes; it's because we haven't heard Cottonmouth and Mariah have the same argument about not being seen at her club plus five times. The show was structurally confusing (why waste time on suggesting that Diamondback's a legitimate threat if you're going to dismiss him as a loser so thoroughly in the finale?) and ultimately quite boring. Mariah's psychodrama worked for me, and given that it ultimately ended up being the actual climax of the show, you have to wonder whether most of the stuff Luke did was even that useful in the end. (Which, yes, it deliberate irony on the part of the show, but also aggressively dismissive to the show's entire season.) I'm actually interested in seeing where Scott Buck takes Irony Fist. I trust the critics, in that they don't like the early episodes of Iron Fist, but a) show's often take time to improve, b) critics can often be wrong, and c) I remember back when Scott Buck was a really respected writer working for Alan Ball's Six Feet Under and HBO's Rome. His Six Feet Under scripts are particularly good -- he wrote the Christmas episode, for one, and also 'That's My Dog', one of the most loving upsetting and disturbing episodes of television to ever be produced. Yes, latter Dexter is absolute poo poo -- but latter anything on Showtime is absolute poo poo. Those network executives are loving crazy, and are clearly meddlesome fuckwits determined to run their shows into the ground. I'm absolutely willing to give this show a chance based on all of that.
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Mar 11, 2017 06:11
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In It For The Tank posted:On a related note, the most annoying thing about the ninjas was that they could hide the sound of their heart beating but not their breath. It also is a complete change of how his power works, they literally showed it gave him like a 3d map of the area around him several times if he can't realize a person is there because of their hearts how the hell can he run around on rooftops and the such?
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Mar 11, 2017 08:30
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Open Source Idiom posted:Jessica Jones was good all the way through, though I think it suffered from having an OP villain who peaked in Episode 10 and who couldn't really escalate any further without becoming a cartoon. I cared about the characters, completely bought the drama, and enjoyed all the character work that the episodes involved. Arguments about killing Killgrave off partway into the season miss the point the show was making about violence and cycles of abuse, and furthermore miss a very basic plot point: Jessica isn't just trying to neutralise Killgrave, she's trying to prove he even has superpowers in the first place. A failure to do that would mean that she'd have condemned a woman to a lengthy prison term for something she didn't do, and, subtextually, represented a failure for Jessica to escape self-condemnation for the crimes she committed when under Kilgrave's mindcontrol. It has problems, of course, but I think it's by far the strongest actual show to come out of Netflix Marvel. Agreed. I think it was very successful because the main character was a victim of sexual abuse who happened to have superpowers, rather than the other way around. And the show did an excellent job making sure that she couldn't just superpower her way out of problems. Even when she had her nemesis in captivity, it was actually her hands that were tied. Subtle ironies like that added a lot of depth to the show. Also, Rachael Taylor was fantastic. Great character, very solid acting. Hope to see Hellcat in future shows.
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Mar 11, 2017 10:07
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enraged_camel posted:Agreed. I think it was very successful because the main character was a victim of sexual abuse who happened to have superpowers, rather than the other way around. And the show did an excellent job making sure that she couldn't just superpower her way out of problems. Even when she had her nemesis in captivity, it was actually her hands that were tied. Subtle ironies like that added a lot of depth to the show. It depends if the viewer had been convinced that this conundrum actually worked and obviously lots of people were not.
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Mar 11, 2017 15:48
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HIJK posted:It depends if the viewer had been convinced that this conundrum actually worked and obviously lots of people were not. It's very common for audiences to miss ironies and not appreciate great writing. 
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Mar 11, 2017 17:24
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enraged_camel posted:It's very common for audiences to miss ironies and not appreciate great writing. Here's the thing: it was garbage writing because the script writers couldn't come up with a better justification for a bad idea. Everytime Kilgrave pulls off another escape they should have added a slide whistle. e: in fact they could have added a slide whistle to the murder corpse line, the "inside you" line, and whompwhompwhompwhommmmmp to every Simpson scene ever, 'cause that was just...mediocre. And how did JJ cure Malcolm of a drug addiction that badly? The lady who plays Trish was good but she had a really mediocre script to work with. JJ wasn't bad, it just was only okay. HIJK fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 17:27
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notthegoatseguy posted:But he isn't THAT gifted. He only won against Nobu in Season 1 out of luck. And Nobu is just treated like a bitch in season 2. Considering we're dealing with a blind guy here I think anything above 'not swinging in entirely the wrong direction' is pretty gifted. Hell, he's winning fights too.
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Mar 11, 2017 18:51
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RareAcumen posted:Considering we're dealing with a blind guy here I think anything above 'not swinging in entirely the wrong direction' is pretty gifted. Hell, he's winning fights too.
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Mar 11, 2017 18:54
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It's hosed up that they've never done a Daredevil meets Zatoichi story.
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Mar 11, 2017 19:34
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Guy Goodbody posted:It's hosed up that they've never done a Daredevil meets Zatoichi story. Wait, not even in a What If? That is hosed up.
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Mar 11, 2017 20:10
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I am currently 4 beers and 2 shots into another rewatch of Showdown in Little Tokyo, and I will have you know that this is a finely crafted Fil that beautifully balances action, pathos, and sentimentality.
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Mar 11, 2017 20:33
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It's a bit worrying that all the reviews I'm reading about Iron Fist keep saying that Luke Cage was good and this is going to be boring. How low is that bar if this is going to be worse?
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Mar 11, 2017 20:38
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I've enjoyed all the Marvel shows so far, maybe I'm broken inside. 
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Mar 11, 2017 21:05
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Nah don't listen to goons.
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Mar 11, 2017 21:11
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Invalid Validation posted:Nah don't listen to goons. ... Or Forbes ... Or Metacritic (Season one sits at 75% compared to Season 2's 68%, but has fewer reviews) ... or literally everyone who has gotten a screener of Iron Fist I'll give you that while I found all that stuff about LC, DD, & IF easily, the only negative stuff I could find about JJ was a really huge Reddit thread that is basically echoing the criticisms we've lobbied here, but interspersed with a ton of super loving creepy "I think she should have hosed more black guys" stuff and any real publication that talks about basically just says "10/10 genre defying television only marred by perhaps having too cool of a villain" which i JUST don't see, but again, i couldn't be bothered to watch more than 4 hours of it before going back to Daredevil.
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Mar 11, 2017 21:24
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PerniciousKnid posted:I've enjoyed all the Marvel shows so far, maybe I'm broken inside. As have I. But I also just enjoyed rewatching Showdown in Little Tokyo.
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Mar 11, 2017 22:19
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10 Beers posted:But I also just enjoyed rewatching Showdown in Little Tokyo.
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Mar 11, 2017 23:04
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10 Beers posted:As have I. I am a huge Dolph fan, so I am always up to watch that movie.
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Mar 11, 2017 23:41
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PerniciousKnid posted:I've enjoyed all the Marvel shows so far, maybe I'm broken inside. Personal tastes are personal tastes, if you enjoyed everything there's nothing wrong with that. Chances are there's someone who'd like a badly reviewed piece of entertainment. It's not like a poor rating on a movie should make you less able to enjoy it. An example with me, I thought Real Steel was pretty good and that's only got such unparalleled high marks of 'average'
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Mar 12, 2017 00:10
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10 Beers posted:As have I. There are people who don't like watching Showdown in Little Tokyo? How sad.
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Mar 12, 2017 00:23
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:I am a huge Dolph fan, so I am always up to watch that movie. Gyges posted:There are people who don't like watching Showdown in Little Tokyo? How sad. Hello, new friends.
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Mar 12, 2017 01:33
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HIJK posted:
I think it has more to do with season 1 being the only show before Disney installed the firewall between Marvel TV and Marvel Movies.
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Mar 12, 2017 05:25
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I think it has more to do with season 1 being the only show before Disney installed the firewall between Marvel TV and Marvel Movies. That line has always been there. The only thing Feige is credited on from the TV world is Agent Carter. I think the success of DD S1 is that they had one showrunner that had a consistent vision. For whatever reason, there seems to be two or three plot lines that run throughout DD Season 2 and they barely interact with each other until the very end.
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Mar 12, 2017 05:37
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Maybe just stick with what appeals to you most, rather than looking for some outside source like rottentomatoes? I know how it's hard to avoid it, but think about it. Are you looking for what pleases you most? or what other people are pleased by instead?
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Mar 12, 2017 05:51
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notthegoatseguy posted:I think the success of DD S1 is that they had one showrunner that had a consistent vision. For whatever reason, there seems to be two or three plot lines that run throughout DD Season 2 and they barely interact with each other until the very end. The first season of Daredevil had multiple showrunners. First was Drew Goddard, who left early on to direct the never made Sinister Six movie, then Steven DeKnight came on board as his replacement. And the second season of Daredevil had multiple plot lines as a response to the criticism of the first season, and Jessica Jones, of trying to stretch out a single plot over 13 episodes.
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Mar 12, 2017 05:53
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Drew Goddard wrote the pilot and left fairly early in Season 1's development process. I remember reading that he left when they had VERY roughly outlined the first half of the season. DeKnight then came in and provided a clear vision for the season. Season 2 had a "clear vision" from two dudes and it totally failed to cohere. We can all debate if the Punisher/Elektra stuff worked or not, but there's a consensus that the last 1/3 was a trainwreck. I also felt like Season 2 had no idea what it was "about", largely losing the gritty urban feel of the first season for a generic superhero tale. Castle's monologue in episode 4 might be my favorite moment in the entire Marvel franchise, but Punisher's Lethal vs NonLethal Force is a well-worn cliche.
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Mar 12, 2017 06:11
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howe_sam posted:The first season of Daredevil had multiple showrunners. First was Drew Goddard, who left early on to direct the never made Sinister Six movie, then Steven DeKnight came on board as his replacement. I don't think DD S1 was criticized for stretching the plot too thin. I think it didn't quite stick the landing for the last episode, but it was by no means bad.
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Mar 12, 2017 06:24
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I've never been a fan of the ninja side of the Daredevil mythos, so the Stick/Hand parts of season 1 just felt like padding to me. I doubt I'm in the majority on this but I wanted more courtroom stuff.
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Mar 12, 2017 07:08
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Yakmouth posted:I've never been a fan of the ninja side of the Daredevil mythos, so the Stick/Hand parts of season 1 just felt like padding to me. 2nd the court room. I wanna see some goddamn phoenix wright poo poo! Matt is supposedly a great lawyer when he tries and Foggy a decent one. Show that!
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Mar 12, 2017 07:11
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Law and Order: Hell's Kitchen would suit just fine.
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Mar 12, 2017 09:27
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Yakmouth posted:I've never been a fan of the ninja side of the Daredevil mythos, so the Stick/Hand parts of season 1 just felt like padding to me. The courtroom/lawyering is pretty much complete bullshit though.
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Mar 12, 2017 17:34
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notthegoatseguy posted:The courtroom/lawyering is pretty much complete bullshit though. It's complete bullshit from a realistic perspective but it's a lot stronger thematically. They had an interesting idea with Daredevil grappling with his religion in the face of magic ninja bullshit but never did enough with it for it to really sell to me while Daredevil's central conflict of wanting to do good within the law while both needing and wanting to act outside the law is a lot more interesting.
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Mar 12, 2017 17:39
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