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wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!
Did Frozen Phil ever finish restoring that Mustang?
Last I recall, he had split from his wife, and it was being stored in a garage owned by the (former) in-laws.

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JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
What do I need besides my socket set and a box of new plugs to change sparkplugs on a 2010 Honda Civic? Do I need a torque wrench and gap gauge?

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

JUST MAKING CHILI posted:

What do I need besides my socket set and a box of new plugs to change sparkplugs on a 2010 Honda Civic? Do I need a torque wrench and gap gauge?

Anti-sieze compound for the plug threads.
Maybe a small piece of rubber hose to fit over the tops of the plugs to start threading them in to the holes, before you put the ratchet on them.

Preoptopus
Aug 25, 2008

Три полоски,
три по три полоски

JUST MAKING CHILI posted:

What do I need besides my socket set and a box of new plugs to change sparkplugs on a 2010 Honda Civic? Do I need a torque wrench and gap gauge?

Just tighten them so they are snug. Get ngk iridium plugs. If you don't have a spark plug socket you might need a magnet to get em out. You shouldn't need to gap new plugs but be careful and place them down in there as oppose to just dropping them in.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
Get a spark plug socket. It's cheaper than breaking the porcelain on a new plug.

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
Thanks guys. I have a spark plug socket I've never used, hopefully they're a standard size.

0toShifty
Aug 21, 2005
0 to Stiffy?

Preoptopus posted:

Just tighten them so they are snug. Get ngk iridium plugs. If you don't have a spark plug socket you might need a magnet to get em out. You shouldn't need to gap new plugs but be careful and place them down in there as oppose to just dropping them in.

NGK's part numbers actually specify the gap - if they have a dash in the part number - they're specially gaped for that application.

for example IZFR6K-11S has a dash 11 - so that means a 1.1mm gap. If there's no dash number then it has a "standard" gap of 0.8mm-0.9mm

Geoj
May 28, 2008

BITTER POOR PERSON

JUST MAKING CHILI posted:

Thanks guys. I have a spark plug socket I've never used, hopefully they're a standard size.

Spark plug sockets are most commonly found in 5/8 and 13/16. If you have a harbor freight near you they sell both sizes for $3 each, or most chain parts stores usually carry them in front of the register but you'll probably pay more.

Odds are you'll need the 5/8 size.

tactlessbastard
Feb 4, 2001

Godspeed, post
Fun Shoe
I would have thought all the 94 to 96 civics had already been stolen at least once to repair other stolen civics in a ever reducing reservoir of still repairable stolen 90s civics.

totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.

wesleywillis posted:

Anti-sieze compound for the plug threads.

This is wrong. Do not put anti-seize on spark plug threads (unless they're black).

Geoj posted:

Spark plug sockets are most commonly found in 5/8 and 13/16. If you have a harbor freight near you they sell both sizes for $3 each, or most chain parts stores usually carry them in front of the register but you'll probably pay more.

Odds are you'll need the 5/8 size.

I just want to complain about the US still not using metric. But yes, I'll confirm that they're 5/8ths. Technically, 14mm 16mm. :ninja:

0toShifty posted:

NGK's part numbers actually specify the gap - if they have a dash in the part number - they're specially gaped for that application.

for example IZFR6K-11S has a dash 11 - so that means a 1.1mm gap. If there's no dash number then it has a "standard" gap of 0.8mm-0.9mm

Yes! Actually, all the letters mean something, though there's a couple different PN conventions depending on how old the design is. The most important ones are the first and second numbers, heat range and gap respectively. Even ones like TR55 has two numbers - it's HR 5 with 0.5mm gap.

totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Mar 15, 2017

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

totalnewbie posted:

This is wrong. Do not put anti-seize on spark plug threads (unless they're black).


Since when? Not trying to start poo poo, just wondering, I've always done that since forever. Especially in aluminum heads.

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012


You should still be checking gaps because a plug can and will shift during shipping. A cheapo gapping tool is like $3. Given most ngk iridium plugs are like $6-$7 a pop, its good insurance.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.
Some ship with a nifty little tube around the threads and electrodes to prevent getting regapped by the freight company, which I like, but I still check em.

totalnewbie posted:

This is wrong. Do not put anti-seize on spark plug threads (unless they're black).


I just want to complain about the US still not using metric. But yes, I'll confirm that they're 5/8ths. Technically, 14mm. :colbert:


Yes! Actually, all the letters mean something, though there's a couple different PN conventions depending on how old the design is. The most important ones are the first and second numbers, heat range and gap respectively. Even ones like TR55 has two numbers - it's HR 5 with 0.5mm gap.

Isn't 9/16 14mm, and 5/8 roughly 16mm?

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
9/16s is roughly 14mm. gently caress dicking around with this, the last thing I need is to round off a goddamned spark plug.

totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.
This is why standard sucks. It's 14mm thread, 16mm hex. I get them confused these days because I don't think about them ever, anymore. Especially now that everyone is using M12/Hex14 (and some even smaller, like M10/BiHex12 or Hex14). Went back and edited.

wesleywillis posted:

Since when? Not trying to start poo poo, just wondering, I've always done that since forever. Especially in aluminum heads.

Since they started plating the spark plugs. Adding anti-seize will gently caress with your tightening torque, so you'll turn the threads more to get the proper torque, which puts strain on the insulator and can cause internal breakage. Or if you turn it enough times, it won't have enough torque and can come loose.

There can be concerns regarding corrosion and certain fuel types, but those are accounted for during development/testing. For example, E100 (i.e. Brazil) applications need nickel plating; zinc plating (NGK and Champion's standard) won't hold up. Strangely enough, just a little bit of gasoline like in E85 is enough to avoid the corrosion issues. On the other hand, Bosch and Denso's standard nickel plating isn't as good in normal salt spray because it's just not as good as zinc. Plus Bosch and Denso use a hot crimp operation, so their plating isn't chromated like NGK and Champion's.

Cop Porn Popper posted:

You should still be checking gaps because a plug can and will shift during shipping. A cheapo gapping tool is like $3. Given most ngk iridium plugs are like $6-$7 a pop, its good insurance.

No, you should NOT be checking gaps, especially if it's a precious metal spark plug. ESPECIALLY with a cheapo gapping tool. The only acceptable tool to use for precious metal spark plugs are pin gauges and they're not cheap.

All spark plugs should come with gap protectors to keep the gaps from being damaged. Gap is one of the tightest tolerances on a spark plug so, yeah, they're not just allowed to shift around and be hit.

Using gauges, especially slide or block gauges, are very likely to damage your center electrode. Don't do it.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.
Well, crap. I learned something today, thanks for that. Guess I won't gently caress up my next set of plugs then.

tactlessbastard
Feb 4, 2001

Godspeed, post
Fun Shoe

kastein posted:

Well, crap. I learned something today, thanks for that. Guess I won't gently caress up my next set of plugs then.

Same!

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012


totalnewbie posted:

No, you should NOT be checking gaps, especially if it's a precious metal spark plug. ESPECIALLY with a cheapo gapping tool. The only acceptable tool to use for precious metal spark plugs are pin gauges and they're not cheap.

All spark plugs should come with gap protectors to keep the gaps from being damaged. Gap is one of the tightest tolerances on a spark plug so, yeah, they're not just allowed to shift around and be hit.

Using gauges, especially slide or block gauges, are very likely to damage your center electrode. Don't do it.

Then send my store the proper tool to regap the plugs, because on average about one box in 100 (regardless of if its ngk, denso, bosch, champion or under a big 3 name. Autolite are just special and include no protection, at least on cheap plugs.) comes in with the gap completely closed off or at least 20 thousandths from what it should be, due to either manufacturing issues or damage during shipping. More frequently they are off by 5-10 thousandths and the only tool we have access to is slide gauges. :colbert:

Michael Scott
Jan 3, 2010

by zen death robot

This is why I come to AI and this thread. To learn cool facts that a tiny minority of car owners understand, and probably not many mechanics either. Thanks totalnewbie! You're the spark plug guy eh?

Here's NGK's page on the subject: https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs

Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Mar 15, 2017

totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.
Fun story, I was sent to Mexico a couple weeks after I started my job (i.e. I didn't know a loving thing) to tell a customer engine plant the same thing. They had 100% incoming inspection with block gauges and it was loving their poo poo up real bad. Fortunately I went with a coworker who was in QA.


Cop Porn Popper posted:

Then send my store the proper tool to regap the plugs, because on average about one box in 100 (regardless of if its ngk, denso, bosch, champion or under a big 3 name. Autolite are just special and include no protection, at least on cheap plugs.) comes in with the gap completely closed off or at least 20 thousandths from what it should be, due to either manufacturing issues or damage during shipping. More frequently they are off by 5-10 thousandths and the only tool we have access to is slide gauges. :colbert:

I wouldn't recommend Autolite plugs anyway.

And tool, you say. Umm, if you want to regap a precious metal plug (i.e. not nickel) then you need:
1. A set of pin gauges down to 0.00X
2. Something like a wrench socket to use to close the gap (it's small, fits in your hand, has some heft but isn't too heavy).
3. Something with a small hole and a THIN edge on the inside to use to pry open the gap. Basically, this allows you to lever the ground electrode and avoid all contact with the center electrode.
4. Patience and a carefully calibrated hand.

And keep in mind that a 0.9mm gap doesn't necessarily mean target gap size is 0.9mm. Depends on the actual tolerance.

totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Mar 15, 2017

totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.

Michael Scott posted:

This is why I come to AI and this thread. To learn cool facts that a tiny minority of car owners understand, and probably not many mechanics either. Thanks totalnewbie! You're the spark plug guy eh?

Here's NGK's page on the subject: https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs

You have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes...

I work on sensors now, primarily O2 (switching and wide-range). Feel free to ask if you have any questions. But sensor technologies differ a lot more between competitors and a lot of things are system-related and not answerable on a component-level, so it's more difficult to answer them in a generic, public internet way.

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011
My flex fuel 08 crown Vic came with, from the fleet mechanics I assume, unplated, un-anti-seized, copper Autolite plugs (they were a bitch to get out).

I put in platinum tip, plated Champions. However, they didn't come with gap protectors, so 3 of the eight were completely smashed closed.

I did my standard "Leatherman/Knipex plier the ground electrode open, hamfist a .054 feeler gauge in the gap, tap shut with end of screwdriver handle until it touches." :ohdear:

totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.
Ford doesn't use Autolite these days, FWIW. Also, you shouldn't put Champion into your car if you can avoid it. NGK/Denso > Bosch >>> Champion >>> Anyone else.

But yeah, your method is exactly a way that people damage the center electrode. If you can somehow ensure that the force is directly along the center electrode axis then maybe it's not so bad, but if it's not (and it's probably not) then you risk really damaging the center electrode. It can chip or break off completely.

I'm not saying that it will definitely be damaged, it's just risky. That's why the plant that I went to was still able to operate, because they weren't damaging all of their plugs (or even most...)

I mean, in the future, maybe it's better to open up the plugs at the store and see if they're obviously damaged. And if you open them up and they don't have gap protectors, definitely don't buy them.

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011
I know they're not supposed to use autolite, but they did. Fleet maintenance :v: . Champion was the only platinum plug available in the size I needed from the auto store within walking distance. I'm normally a 100% NGK guy.

I don't pry between the center electrode with a flathead screwdriver to open it up (used to though), I pull the ground electrode by the sides open.

But the average dude doesn't have pin gauges, right? So I used what I had. Hell, a ton of shadetree "mechanics" might not even have feeler gauges on hand. What do you do in that scenario? As stated by the other post, the stores might not even have the right tools.

This is all amazing info and I want to pick your brain so hard.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

as a person who never leaves my house i've done pretty well for myself.

Metal Geir Skogul posted:

But the average dude doesn't have pin gauges, right? So I used what I had. Hell, a ton of shadetree "mechanics" might not even have feeler gauges on hand. What do you do in that scenario? As stated by the other post, the stores might not even have the right tools.

A sheet of ordinary printer paper is about a tenth of a millimetre thick. Possibly good enough for shadetree work.

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011
I mean in the context of this. I have feeler gauges, and used them.

totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.
We always have our own tools, so I don't know what you plebeians are forced to do :D But yeah, it's just risky. There's a lot of things you can do and get away with, but it's just never the recommended option.

But seriously, feel free to ask any questions. I've got way more knowledge than I ever thought I'd have about these very specific subjects.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

as a person who never leaves my house i've done pretty well for myself.

totalnewbie posted:

But seriously, feel free to ask any questions. I've got way more knowledge than I ever thought I'd have about these very specific subjects.

Tell me something about the chemistry/physics of O₂ sensors that Wikipedia gets wrong or leaves out.

PainterofCrap
Oct 17, 2002

hey bebe


I check the gaps on all new plugs, but I run old iron.

Get a proper set of feeler gauges. They make (or made) proper pin gauges for plugs - folding or open. The sets also have a slotted key that fits over the ground, so that you can bend it in or out by levering on the ground itself, without ever touching the electrode:

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


Gonna do my first tune up on my old 302 very soon. Suggestions on proper spark plugs and good quality gauge so I don't feel too dumb at the store?

Parts Kit
Jun 9, 2006

durr
i have a hole in my head
durr
Got a new valve cover gasket in my 87 B2000 and it's still leaking oil like crazy on the firewall end. I did run it for a bit and retighten the bolts in the pattern, twice, with no real change. I did not use RTV, seems like some folks say to use it and some say to not use it -- should I or what?

I'm going to get a small camera down in the gap between the engine and the firewall and make 100% sure the oil isn't coming from somewhere else -- any places I should make sure to check?

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
Buy the little bottle of dye with the UV penlight from a parts store. Eliminate the guesswork.

Parts Kit
Jun 9, 2006

durr
i have a hole in my head
durr
Yeah, I'll do that this weekend.

totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.

PainterofCrap posted:

I check the gaps on all new plugs, but I run old iron.

Get a proper set of feeler gauges. They make (or made) proper pin gauges for plugs - folding or open. The sets also have a slotted key that fits over the ground, so that you can bend it in or out by levering on the ground itself, without ever touching the electrode:



Yeah, with the nickel plugs, you can do whatever you want, really. You won't hurt it. It's the precious metal tips that are susceptible to damage.

Well, I mean, I guess one question is what is the tolerance of those pin gauges? Probably not as good as you technically need it to be. Not if it's cheap enough for you to just buy one on a whim.

Platystemon posted:

Tell me something about the chemistry/physics of O₂ sensors that Wikipedia gets wrong or leaves out.

I dunno, there's a lot that goes into the sensor that the article doesn't get into detail or glosses over. I mean, there's planar and thimble type switching and wide-range sensors, though the Denso thimble-type wide-range sensor is a 1-cell type and not as good as the 2-cells.

Or, for example, the UEGO sensor schematic isn't quite accurate:
If you look at a UEGO sensor, you'll see that it sometimes has 5 wires going from the sensor to the connector but 5, 6, or 7 pins going from the connector to the ECU. Well, I guess the article does say common...
2 wires are for the heater
1 wire is for the Nernst cell
1 wire is for the pumping cell
1 wire is a common wire that is connected to both cells
1 extra terminal comes from if there's direct compensation, where the pump cell signal is diverted through a resistor in parallel
2 extra terminals comes from if there's a label resistor where the resistor is not directly connected to the sensor but the ECU reads the resistor value, looks up the compensation in a table, and proceeds accordingly
0 extra terminals if there's no compensation (they can do other things to improve accuracy instead, but it's more calibration-intensive)

You can see all that if you deconstruct the sensor.

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

totalnewbie posted:

You have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes...

I work on sensors now, primarily O2 (switching and wide-range). Feel free to ask if you have any questions. But sensor technologies differ a lot more between competitors and a lot of things are system-related and not answerable on a component-level, so it's more difficult to answer them in a generic, public internet way.

Oh boy, you opened a can of worms. :v: Might even deserve its own thread!

These questions are a little specific. #1, any idea why GM Ecotec engines run so absolutely terrible on Bosch +4 plugs? I know they're plugs designed to just make more money, I don't run them (nor have I ever) in anything I own, but every post about "I changed plugs and now my ecotec is missing and runs like poo poo" I find is usually "I put Bosch plugs in". Same thing Honda forums I used to be on.

#2, any idea why Hondas flip their poo poo with Bosch O2 sensors, when most cars seem to handle them fine? 80s and 90s Hondas do, anyway. Most people on any Honda forum know to only run NTK, maybe Denso, O2 sensors in them, same with plugs. Bosch sensors (at least on OBD0 and OBD1 Hondas) seemed to always trigger mixture or O2 codes.

I was surprised to see both Nissan and Bosch logos on the original O2 sensor from my Altima. It seemed to run the same with an NTK sensor though. v:v:v

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011
Bosch +4 has hosed every vehicle I've put them in. From an 83 ranger, to 88 olds 3800, to any modern car I've dicked around on. ACVWs with digital high power coil mods, motorcycles, pickups, etc.

Are they ever OEM or required? Like, aircraft engines or some poo poo?

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

I'll have you know my 1980 F-150 351M ran exactly the same on +4 as it did on every other plug. :colbert:

(very poorly for a few thousand miles before fouling the plugs)

(it also has 60wt oil in it and still only had ~5 psi at idle, 25-30 PSI at highway speeds once warm)

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011
Those are my ACVW numbers. Maybe I should try +4s :v:

autism ZX spectrum
Feb 8, 2007

by Lowtax
Fun Shoe
I had a 200X Mazda Protege that just absolutely loved the +4s

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totalnewbie
Nov 13, 2005

I was born and raised in China, lived in Japan, and now hold a US passport.

I am wrong in every way, all the damn time.

Ask me about my tattoos.

Yu-Gi-Ho! posted:

Oh boy, you opened a can of worms. :v: Might even deserve its own thread!

These questions are a little specific. #1, any idea why GM Ecotec engines run so absolutely terrible on Bosch +4 plugs? I know they're plugs designed to just make more money, I don't run them (nor have I ever) in anything I own, but every post about "I changed plugs and now my ecotec is missing and runs like poo poo" I find is usually "I put Bosch plugs in". Same thing Honda forums I used to be on.

#2, any idea why Hondas flip their poo poo with Bosch O2 sensors, when most cars seem to handle them fine? 80s and 90s Hondas do, anyway. Most people on any Honda forum know to only run NTK, maybe Denso, O2 sensors in them, same with plugs. Bosch sensors (at least on OBD0 and OBD1 Hondas) seemed to always trigger mixture or O2 codes.

I was surprised to see both Nissan and Bosch logos on the original O2 sensor from my Altima. It seemed to run the same with an NTK sensor though. v:v:v

One of the biggest considerations for the spark plug is what's called ignitability. This is measured in several ways, but one is MB50, i.e. how quickly after spark does 50% of the fuel mixture burn. This time is heavily dependent on the initial few milliseconds; as you can imagine, once your flame kernel becomes bigger, combustion speeds up. The more mass you have around the spark, the more this flame kernel will be slowed down. So the Bosch +4 plug having so many ground electrodes really reduced ignitability and it throws off your ignition timing a lot.

Consider:
Larger gap = better ignitability = higher demand voltage (voltage required to spark) = worse durability

So then you're always looking for ways to increase ignitability so you can reduce the gap size to get better durability, but this means progressively more expensive spark plugs: nickel -> precious metal -> ground electorde tapering -> dual fine electrode

But then there are even more considerations, like DFE isn't great for turbo engines because the GE is so much longer and now overheating of the GE starts to be a concern. Things like that.

Now the research is all in improving ignitability while keeping prices low and durability high. It's a challenge because there are several novel systems but they all have problems: cold plasma only runs in a very specific regime, a lot of ways to add energy to the spark have massive durability problems, other systems like laser are hugely complex and expensive, etc.

tl;dr: Bosch +4 GEs get in the way of the flame kernel and gently caress up the ignition timing.

O2 sensors are very calibration intensive and system dependent. If you try to throw a Bosch wide-range sensor instead of NTK, for example, it could just be that the ECU doesn't have the proper hardware or software to handle the different Bosch sensor. Even with a switching sensor, Bosch sensors are planar type and NTK and Denso have thimble types (though NTK also makes planar) so again, it could be a hardware/software issue.

When it comes to O2 sensor, because it's so calibration/system dependent, I would always recommend going with the OEM supplier, if not PN.

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