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yeah I eat rear end posted:You are, though.
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Mar 16, 2017 20:52
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I'm sincerely a little confused with this document. It appears to be a history and critique of the US rather than discussing and providing evidence of effective Communism in practice. Also a whole lotta K's.
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Mar 16, 2017 20:52
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zh1 posted:There's no such thing for capitalism, mate. If your communist utopias were so great and successful why did they get dismantled while the USA is still here
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Mar 16, 2017 20:53
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yeah I eat rear end posted:If your communist utopias were so great and successful why did they get dismantled while the USA is still here Because the USA mettled with and outright destroyed them for centuries holy poo poo
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Mar 16, 2017 20:54
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zh1 posted:Because the USA mettled with and outright destroyed them for centuries holy poo poo So you acknowledge our way is better, thanks.
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Mar 16, 2017 20:56
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The soviet union is pretty indefensible and any leftist who gets really defensive about it is a huge red flag. They had some good early on success on issues like women's rights and literacy and actually experimented with democratic control of production (you know, the absolute core principle of marxism), but Lenin was already on the wrong track by the time he stroked out and then Stalin gave up any pretense of "building communism" and just established a lovely state-capitalist dictatorship and rolled back a lot of the early social reforms. Soviet Union is as good an example of communism as the Democratic Republic of Korea is an example of democracy.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:07
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Baronjutter posted:The soviet union is pretty indefensible and any leftist who gets really defensive about it is a huge red flag. They had some good early on success on issues like women's rights and literacy and actually experimented with democratic control of production (you know, the absolute core principle of marxism), but Lenin was already on the wrong track by the time he stroked out and then Stalin gave up any pretense of "building communism" and just established a lovely state-capitalist dictatorship and rolled back a lot of the early social reforms. Soviet Union is as good an example of communism as the Democratic Republic of Korea is an example of democracy. So insofar as a state is actually communist, it's a huge success? Thanks for agreeing with me
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Mar 16, 2017 21:10
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Communism lead to the objectively best cultures in the world (yet), just not in officially communist or socialist countries. The fall of the Soviet Union was the starting point of the downfall of the only welfare states to ever have existed on this planet.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:12
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Ahaha, christ, really? poo poo, thread, sorry. I'd have shut up if i knew what powerfull trollery i was summoning. Anyway, i am actually, no joke, a litteral communist. I'm not a loving tankie, though, and USSR and Mao apologists need to gently caress off. I'm an 'anarchist' in the political sense; i.e. in favor of worker self-government and direct control over their means of production, not simply in favor of government ownership of everything. I cannot emphazise this enough: Stalin is no better than hitler, and anyone who defends his regime is no comrade of mine. It's also not simply a matter of some group seizing power and making a country communist; propper communism requires a society that is, ground-up, not top-down, build around ideas of collaboration and combined ownership at the very core. For the record, i think communism, if it happens, will probably happen as a result of automatization; as labour is increasingly able to be automated, i think capitalism will strain under the massive unemployment and the dissilutionment in the idea that work, in the capitalist sense, is a driving or necessary part of life. I also, wholeheartedly, believe that capitalism is scourge on the world; more than anything, i am an anti-capitalist. While capitalism is, in fact, working exactly as designed, that means the ever-inceasing exploitation of the working classes, imperialism, concentration of wealth, and the deadly and straight-up murderous expoitation of third-world countries, while also fuelling and encuraging racism, patriarchy and xenophobia.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:29
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Magnusth posted:Ahaha, christ, really? poo poo, thread, sorry. I'd have shut up if i knew what powerfull trollery i was summoning. Source your quotes.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:31
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IMHO stupid newbie avatars on babby communists are a huge red flag that you are dealing with a rebelling teen (of any age).
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Mar 16, 2017 21:33
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Jerry Cotton posted:Source your quotes. "A spectre is haunting Europe – the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies. Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries? Two things result from this fact: I. Communism is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power. II. It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself. To this end, Communists of various nationalities have assembled in London and sketched the following manifesto, to be published in the English, French, German, Italian, Flemish and Danish languages. I. Bourgeois and Proletarians....."
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Mar 16, 2017 21:34
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Capitalism is against a free market. In a functioning social democracy, both labour and capital are free to form corporations which can compete against each other or work with each other to achieve their goals.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:34
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Jerry Cotton posted:Capitalism is against a free market. In a functioning social democracy, both labour and capital are free to form corporations which can compete against each other or work with each other to achieve their goals.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:38
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The USSR and China are good examples of how successful a state capitalist dictatorship can be, what they can accomplish, and what they're terrible at. But they shouldn't be at all held up as examples of actual marxism/socialism because they didn't even match the most basic definitions. And beyond those most basic definitions, there's thousands of different interpretations and ideas of what a "proper" attempt at socialism would look like but they're all just untested ideas that will never see the light of day. Not necessarily because they are flawed or would produce a worse society than we have now, but because the world would never allow it. So why even talk about or care about it? Because back in the day the threat of communism helped reign in some of the worst excesses and abuses of capitalism. So many of europes best social programs and "social democracy" was implemented in order to appease the working class, to show them capitalism can work in a way that doesn't totally gently caress them over. A great way to diffuse uppity workers who might get radical is to make their conditions better. Now that "communism has been proven wrong", labour unions are mostly defeated and marginalized, and people have been atomized into hyper-individualistic consumers and identity groups rather than classes there's absolutely no push-back to capital anymore. It's ever creeping austerity, death of the middle class, and an ever growing gap between the rich and poor. Even if the idea of communism is an impossible and ridiculous pipe dream, the fear of it or the ideas it represents, the fear of an organized working class that has a limit to how hard they'll be exploited is one of the only ways to protect let alone expand the meager gains in quality of life the average person enjoys. If you enjoy your slightly regulated capitalism with some basic centrist social services, thank a radical leftist.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:41
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Alright, so has there ever been a working example of (real) Communism? I'm not Communist myself, so I really am curious what Communists look to and say, "This works. This is proof of our system."
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Mar 16, 2017 21:45
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Das Boo posted:Alright, so has there ever been a working example of (real) Communism? Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba I think are the closest that we have. I'm planning on traveling to Cuba this summer or fall so hopefully the citizens there will enlighten me to the wonders of communism.
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Mar 16, 2017 21:54
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Magnusth posted:I'm trying to parce this sentence, but i honestly have no clue what you're trying to communicate. Best i can tell, you're using a lot of words to say "The truth is in the middle"? I'm not, you're just a bit thick. Let me try to paraphrase it in a way that can't be misinterpreted. (I may well fail at this.) It's not a free market if the workforce is not allowed to incorporate themselves. People who like to extol the virtues of a free market are usually violently against an incorporated workforce. 3D Megadoodoo has a new favorite as of 22:00 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 21:55
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Solice Kirsk posted:Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba I think are the closest that we have. I'm planning on traveling to Cuba this summer or fall so hopefully the citizens there will enlighten me to the wonders of communism. I can't speak for Vietnam or Cuba, but my experience with Laos was very gun-filled. 
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Mar 16, 2017 22:03
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Baronjutter posted:Which version on paper are you talking about? I'd love to read some of them.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:23
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Collateral Damage posted:I meant it's something that at a glance seems like a good idea to someone who's incredibly naive and/or disconnected from reality. zh1 being a shining example. your tiny head is filled with lies.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:27
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Oh, I've absolutely no doubt that I'm probably a dyed-in-the-wool capitalistic neoliberal running dog, but if we had a communist revolution and it looked like the communists were going to win, you can bet I'd change sides. I've no doubt there'd be some profit to be had out of it. 
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Mar 16, 2017 22:37
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Wheat Loaf posted:Oh, I've absolutely no doubt that I'm probably a dyed-in-the-wool capitalistic neoliberal running dog, but if we had a communist revolution and it looked like the communists were going to win, you can bet I'd change sides. I've no doubt there'd be some profit to be had out of it. we'd see right through you and you'd be right up against the wall with the rest of them
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Mar 16, 2017 22:38
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zh1 posted:we'd see right through you and you'd be right up against the wall with the rest of them Nah, I reckon my dad's just about rich enough that I can pass for a convincing communist.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:42
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zh1 posted:we'd see right through you and you'd be right up against the wall with the rest of them I like you zh1. Your brand of crazy is refreshing.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:43
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capitalism has ruined the earth and the people who would oppose it are seen as crazy 'tankies' or whatever, it's pretty clear none of you have even half a clue
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Mar 16, 2017 22:46
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As much as Commies pretend to be champions of the worker, why are, like, none of them good at working? They're all like, poets with sadbrains and bullshit like that. They're all the Lumpenproletariat and none of them wanna admit it. They can't actually do any work, but they wanna be commies so the work is done for them. They want to be taken care of, because the "each according to his need" really speaks to them.
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Mar 16, 2017 22:48
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why are u so lazy says probably a computer janitor to factory workers, miners, farmers
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Mar 16, 2017 22:49
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Aramek posted:As much as Commies pretend to be champions of the worker, why are, like, none of them good at working? What the hell are you even talking about? Are you people copy/pasting this poo poo from somewhere?
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Mar 16, 2017 22:51
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I hope anyone reading this has been more than convinced that capitalism is worthless just based on the quality of the people defending it
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Mar 16, 2017 22:53
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zh1 posted:What the hell are you even talking about? Are you people copy/pasting this poo poo from somewhere? 
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Mar 16, 2017 22:54
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steinrokkan posted:why are u so lazy says probably a computer janitor to factory workers, miners, farmers Tech is voodoo to me, I'm medical. 
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Mar 16, 2017 22:55
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Das Boo posted:Alright, so has there ever been a working example of (real) Communism? Revolutionary communism is bunk for this reason. No society has ever improved through an abrupt, unmoderated change. So there are no positive examples of a "fully transformed" revolutionary socialist society ala the USSR / China. But Marxism can also be a tool for a systematic, analytical learning about social problems and addressing them in a deliberative (aka democratic), gradual fashion. In that concept, there can be no example of a fully developed socialist society because the target social form permanently evolves - it follows the Marxist material dialectic dynamic, but lacks the idea of pursuing an ultimate, fixed goal. It would be like asking "where is your example of a perfectly working justice", knowing very well that no system of justice is perfect on any level, but ignoring the critical work being done on reconciling the issues of current justice systems, as well as the obvious importance of justice in general. As Hegel said, it's impossible to know where the dialectic process of social change will take you, but it happening, and one can only attempt to do his best to steer it using the correct approach. steinrokkan has a new favorite as of 23:00 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 22:55
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that's the second time some emptyheaded anime avatar has replied with ironicat. does anyone still think this is funny or...??
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Mar 16, 2017 22:58
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steinrokkan posted:Revolutionary communism is bunk for this reason. No society has ever improved through an abrupt, unmoderated change. So there are no positive examples of a "fully transformed" revolutionary socialist society ala the USSR / China. But Marxism can also be a tool for a systematic, analytical learning about social problems and addressing them in a deliberative (aka democratic), gradual fashion. In that concept, there can be no example of a fully developed socialist society because the target social form permanently evolves - it follows the Marxist material dialectic dynamic, but lacks the idea of pursuing an ultimate, fixed goal. It would be like asking "where is your example of a perfectly working justice", knowing very well that no system of justice is perfect on any level, but ignoring the critical work being done on reconciling the issues of current justice systems, as well as the obvious importance of justice in general. steinrokkan posted:why are u so lazy says probably a computer janitor to factory workers, miners, farmers Aramek posted:As much as Commies pretend to be champions of the worker, why are, like, none of them good at working?
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Mar 16, 2017 23:01
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steinrokkan posted:Revolutionary communism is bunk for this reason. No society has ever improved through an abrupt, unmoderated change. So there are no positive examples of a "fully transformed" revolutionary socialist society ala the USSR / China. But Marxism can also be a tool for a systematic, analytical learning about social problems and addressing them in a deliberative (aka democratic), gradual fashion. In that concept, there can be no example of a fully developed socialist society because the target social form permanently evolves - it follows the Marxist material dialectic dynamic, but lacks the idea of pursuing an ultimate, fixed goal. It would be like asking "where is your example of a perfectly working justice", knowing very well that no system of justice is perfect on any level, but ignoring the critical work being done on reconciling the issues of current justice systems, as well as the obvious importance of justice in general. Thank you for the good Hegelian posting.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:02
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If communism really is inevitable, you shouldn't even need a revolution anyway and society will naturally evolve towards socialism. </ramsaymacdonald>
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Mar 16, 2017 23:03
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Wheat Loaf posted:If communism really is inevitable, you shouldn't even need a revolution anyway and society will naturally evolve towards socialism. </ramsaymacdonald>
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Mar 16, 2017 23:04
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By jove! I think he's getting it!
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Mar 16, 2017 23:06
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Not a bad argument but I'm not 100% convinced.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:07
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