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It's a good point that he's doing with 'poor workers' what he thinks feminists are doing with 'women,' though. I think he's hung up on how identity politics was used to attack Sanders and the left as racist/sexist during the primary. That's the only thing IDPol is to this guy: A way to attack the poor. Accretionist has issued a correction as of 03:25 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 23:02
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The important thing is that liberals pay lip service to marginalized groups and classes, despite them being incapable of realizing justice within their own political framework. Socialism, in contrast, expresses not just a desire to achieve justice but creates the means through which justice can be realized - both social and economic - for all.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:03
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Thug Lessons posted:It's not true that "all politics is identity politics" except in a really trivial, meaningless way. You can define identity politics however you want, including a way that encompasses all politics, but that's a semantic "gotcha" argument. There is a really strong philosophical argument that all politics are identity politics and you didn't really provide any refutation out side of "I said so" so forgive me for not immediately seeing your point. Dr. Poz has issued a correction as of 23:17 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 23:05
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Dr. Poz posted:There is a really strong philosophical argument that all politics are identity politics and you didn't really provide any refutation out side of "I said so" so forgive me for glossing right the gently caress over you. Okay, let's say I accept that, and all politics is identity politics. That still doesn't mean there's nothing that distinguishes what we traditionally identify as identity politics, (feminism, LGBTQ activism, etc.), from ideological currents like liberalism, conservatism and socialism. It's sort of like when people say "Taxation is theft" and we have to argue about the definition of theft. It's entirely semantic and doesn't really address anyone's concerns.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:18
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Thug Lessons posted:Okay, let's say I accept that, and all politics is identity politics. That still doesn't mean there's nothing that distinguishes what we traditionally identify as identity politics, (feminism, LGBTQ activism, etc.), from ideological currents like liberalism, conservatism and socialism. It's sort of like when people say "Taxation is theft" and we have to argue about the definition of theft. It's entirely semantic and doesn't really address anyone's concerns. It seems sorta weird that your complaint is how I define terms while complaining that I'm using semantic chicanery and not addressing anybodies concerns. Defining terms is really important to productive discussion if there is some disagreement in perspective. And in the conversation I was in I am directly addressing his concerns. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:37
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SomeMathGuy posted:(real talk does anyone right of Trotsky even know what "praxis" is?). it's how socialists spell "practice"
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Mar 16, 2017 23:41
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Skeptic Tank posted:It seems sorta weird that your complaint is how I define terms while complaining that I'm using semantic chicanery and not addressing anybodies concerns. Defining terms is really important to productive discussion if there is some disagreement in perspective. And in the conversation I was in I am directly addressing his concerns. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I can't actually see the context because when I click on that thread there's nine replies, and none of them are yours or (presumably) the one you're replying to. I don't know if the thread got nuked, or it's actually a different thread, or what. But regardless I can't see the context. Anyway I certainly agree that defining terms is important, but it's only important insofar as making sure everyone is on the same page and understands what's being discussed. Saying "actually all politics is identity politics" doesn't do that and it's not even clarifying terms, it's accusing someone of committing a category error. It's preempting their argument, regardless of content, by saying they've made a grammatical mistake. That's why I'm "complaining about how you use terms", because you use them as a sledgehammer.
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Mar 16, 2017 23:57
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platzapS posted:it's how socialists spell "practice" Praxis your form for maximum gains
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Mar 17, 2017 00:36
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It's the skill points from the mediocre Deus Ex reboot.
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Mar 17, 2017 03:18
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The mediocre Deus Ex reboot is actually good
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Mar 17, 2017 03:55
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quote:neoliberal identity politics is a problem because it uses feminism and anti-racism and the language of LGBTQ rights to shore up the power of capital. This only hurts the majority of women and people of color. BUT making claims about, or analyzing, gender or race or sexuality is not "identitarian" or "divisive." What's divisive is not incorporating those analyses into your own politics.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:01
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I describe the DSA as a Democratic Socialist Feminist Organization, because the neoliberal hijacking of feminism is a real thing, it coincided with the purging of marxist professors at universities, which was funded by none other than Turning Point USA, the same group that brought Milo Yiannopolous to campuses all across America.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:14
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I recruited two LGBT people the other day to my chapter, one was trans, as soon as they heard Democratic Feminist Socialism their eyes lit up like I'd told them they just won a new car or whatever. I was pumped too b.c. my goal is to have a super gay poc dsa that utterly obliterates neoliberal scum.
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Mar 17, 2017 04:17
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For future reference how precisely does Neoliberalism hijack feminism and antiracism. Like I know it does, and I know tge end result, but by what processes and methods
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Mar 17, 2017 04:24
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Phi230 posted:For future reference how precisely does Neoliberalism hijack feminism and antiracism. Remember the Democratic sit in to expand the scope of the no fly list? That same no fly list with no judicial oversight that has literal babies on it. Civil rights leaders from the Democratic leaders were sitting in on the house floor to expand a racist violation of civil rights. David Hill put it better: https://twitter.com/machineiv/status/842580312013991938 Edit: This probably isn't really an answer to your question and is more of an example of the result. My bad. Dr. Poz has issued a correction as of 04:51 on Mar 17, 2017 |
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Mar 17, 2017 04:46
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Phi230 posted:For future reference how precisely does Neoliberalism hijack feminism and antiracism. The main way i know it is by tieing it to corporate interests and separating any related issues form economics, ie ignoring the fact that an increase in wealth among minorities would help with systemic oppression by reducing/eliminating the negative affects of poverty and allowing them to actually hire lawyers instead of getting dicked around by the law. Also by praising companies for hollow "progressive" stances while ignoring poo poo labor practices that encourage economic inequality (STARBUCKS DID SOMETHING FOR BLACK HISTORY MONTH, LETS IGNORE THEIR poo poo WAGES AND HORRIBLE BUSINESS PRACTICES SO THEY DO MORE~~~)
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Mar 17, 2017 04:50
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Agean90 posted:The main way i know it is by tieing it to corporate interests and separating any related issues form economics, ie ignoring the fact that an increase in wealth among minorities would help with systemic oppression by reducing/eliminating the negative affects of poverty and allowing them to actually hire lawyers instead of getting dicked around by the law. Also by praising companies for hollow "progressive" stances while ignoring poo poo labor practices that encourage economic inequality (STARBUCKS DID SOMETHING FOR BLACK HISTORY MONTH, LETS IGNORE THEIR poo poo WAGES AND HORRIBLE BUSINESS PRACTICES SO THEY DO MORE~~~) i'm mostly in agreement with this but i'm also going to add on that the kind of feminism/antiracism that is measured in woke executives was able to be created in an environment where any real challenge from the left was marginalized at best (and murdered by the police at worst) edit: reminder that PoCs and LGBT people don't really have a choice when it comes to political parties, it's either vote for the democrats or don't vote
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Mar 17, 2017 04:58
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Phi230 posted:For future reference how precisely does Neoliberalism hijack feminism and antiracism. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/feminism-capitalist-handmaiden-neoliberal
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Mar 17, 2017 05:11
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Thug Lessons posted:I can't actually see the context because when I click on that thread there's nine replies, and none of them are yours or (presumably) the one you're replying to. I don't know if the thread got nuked, or it's actually a different thread, or what. But regardless I can't see the context. I don't want to derail too bad so this'll be my last post on it. I didn't just point out a grammatical error, I explained how he accidentally conceded the point without understanding it because he doesn't in general understand identity politics. I'd suggest that if you can't see the context that I made the post in that it'll be difficult to lay out a proper criticism of my post. Going to slink back to lurksville for a bit.
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Mar 17, 2017 06:44
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Identity politics become a problem when and if they fail to build solidarity. It's the difference between campaigning to get more minority representation to fills seats in corporate board rooms versus burning the board rooms down. The former helps elevate marginalized individuals into positions of power while ignoring how those who are not elevated remain marginalized. The second empowers all people regardless of the degree or extent of their oppression by democratizing the material conditions of society. When liberals use identity politics, it's just an attempt to make the economic and political elite more diverse, not to actually equalize and democratize society to any meaningful degree. This can lead to stuff like right now where you have liberals laughing at and mocking poor whites who might suffer under trumps policies because some of them voted for him. It's not right to laugh or mock someone based on their class and the poverty they experience. The fact that they voted for trump is a problem and they are not automatically absolved of that by being poor, but it doesn't help build any kind of class consciousness to mock them on the basis of their class, that's just economic elitism.
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Mar 17, 2017 11:08
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apropos to nothing posted:The former helps elevate marginalized individuals into positions of power while ignoring how those who are not elevated remain marginalized. This is how the neoliberals took the term. By making identity politics offer individual rewards, and turning every person of that identity into the liberal version of the rights temporarily embarassed millionaire, convincing them to support stuff that hurts black people overall while helping SPECIFIC black people be able to gently caress over the black masses as well. Because it plays better when the racist oppressors are the same color and we can pretend its not racism.
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Mar 17, 2017 13:33
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Yeah the problem with liberal/neoliberal identity politics is that they have no goal beyond making the ruling class demographically representative (in terms of race/gender/etc.) of society as a whole. As long as whatever behavior is being called "identity politics" goes beyond that to actually challenging the idea of a ruling class, the system that creates a ruling class, and so on, I don't see a problem.
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Mar 17, 2017 15:22
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apropos to nothing posted:Identity politics become a problem when and if they fail to build solidarity. It's the difference between campaigning to get more minority representation to fills seats in corporate board rooms versus burning the board rooms down. The former helps elevate marginalized individuals into positions of power while ignoring how those who are not elevated remain marginalized. The second empowers all people regardless of the degree or extent of their oppression by democratizing the material conditions of society. When liberals use identity politics, it's just an attempt to make the economic and political elite more diverse, not to actually equalize and democratize society to any meaningful degree. This can lead to stuff like right now where you have liberals laughing at and mocking poor whites who might suffer under trumps policies because some of them voted for him. It's not right to laugh or mock someone based on their class and the poverty they experience. The fact that they voted for trump is a problem and they are not automatically absolved of that by being poor, but it doesn't help build any kind of class consciousness to mock them on the basis of their class, that's just economic elitism. good post
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Mar 17, 2017 15:27
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Ronald McReagan posted:Yeah the problem with liberal/neoliberal identity politics is that they have no goal beyond making the ruling class demographically representative (in terms of race/gender/etc.) of society as a whole. As long as whatever behavior is being called "identity politics" goes beyond that to actually challenging the idea of a ruling class, the system that creates a ruling class, and so on, I don't see a problem. i genuinely feel like its like how elites take up random "causes". its to remove themselves mentally from moral guilt without actually putting any effort into solving the real underlying problems because that would inconvenience them and their checkbook.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:05
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Ruzihm posted:good post Thanks. This article does a really good job of elaborating on what I mean: https://www.socialistalternative.org/2015/11/02/identity-politics-struggle-oppression/ Additionally, on last week's This is Hell! Jodi Dean spoke about this towards the end of her interview, which I would suggest listening to all the way through anyway because Jodi Dean is probably my favorite living communist: https://thisishell.com/interviews/942-jodi-dean Finally, Vivek Chibber kind of tangentially covers this in a talk he gave where he speaks about how socialists specifically organize around class because it is the most effective way to achieve equality for groups in all aspects of their lives, race, class, gender/sexuality, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzhVLRbbvVA
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Mar 17, 2017 21:05
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Also I hope it's OK to post in here. I'm not a member of DSA and can't become a member because I'm a member of SAlt and DSA specifically bars members from also being affiliated with any democratic centralist organization, but I still see ya'll as comrades. Myself and other members of SAlt in my area have been working with and trying to coordinate with the DSA in our area as much as possible.
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Mar 17, 2017 21:12
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apropos to nothing posted:Also I hope it's OK to post in here. I'm not a member of DSA and can't become a member because I'm a member of SAlt and DSA specifically bars members from also being affiliated with any democratic centralist organization, but I still see ya'll as comrades. Myself and other members of SAlt in my area have been working with and trying to coordinate with the DSA in our area as much as possible. comrade from another... momrade?
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Mar 17, 2017 21:15
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:comrade from another mom, rad!
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Mar 17, 2017 21:17
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apropos to nothing posted:Also I hope it's OK to post in here. I'm not a member of DSA and can't become a member because I'm a member of SAlt and DSA specifically bars members from also being affiliated with any democratic centralist organization, but I still see ya'll as comrades. Myself and other members of SAlt in my area have been working with and trying to coordinate with the DSA in our area as much as possible. Salt is pretty dang cool. keep up the great work, comrades.
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Mar 17, 2017 21:24
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https://twitter.com/detroitdsa/status/842828353023479809 things going well
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Mar 17, 2017 22:44
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and right on schedule here comes SAlt entryisming all up in our thread too!
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Mar 17, 2017 23:36
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i'm (mostly) kidding btw
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Mar 17, 2017 23:36
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loving Trots, they're probably trying to sell us newspapers. The bastards.
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Mar 17, 2017 23:47
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apropos to nothing posted:Thanks. This article does a really good job of elaborating on what I mean: https://www.socialistalternative.org/2015/11/02/identity-politics-struggle-oppression/ i just wanted to thank you for posting this video, it fuckin owns and it got me off my rear end to throw together a newsletter prototype i've been putting off i'll share the newsletter with you guys if my chapter really likes if you're interested
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Mar 18, 2017 04:00
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id rather have salt than the revcom people with their little wheely hampers full of flyers
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Mar 18, 2017 04:05
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Mar 18, 2017 04:16
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Business Gorillas posted:i just wanted to thank you for posting this video, it fuckin owns and it got me off my rear end to throw together a newsletter prototype i've been putting off yeah that video is super helpful for a new guy like me my terrible brain was kind of overloaded after 1 hour in 1 DSA meeting so I've been cramming my skull full of this stuff since and it can be hard to find clear communicators.
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Mar 18, 2017 04:25
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OhFunny posted:We all could have put this time arguing about dunk memes toward upvoting dunk leftist memes on imgur. this one's great  e: why was a tweet that fuckin big Grand Prize Winner has issued a correction as of 07:16 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 07:09
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Dr. Poz posted:Remember the Democratic sit in to expand the scope of the no fly list? That same no fly list with no judicial oversight that has literal babies on it. Civil rights leaders from the Democratic leaders were sitting in on the house floor to expand a racist violation of civil rights. When I talk about how "neoliberal" has lost a lot of its utility through misuse, this is a prime example of what I mean.
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Mar 18, 2017 07:40
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Is this where I discuss my issues with the way a lot of us try to speak to the general public in academic language and get mad when they don't understand or misconstrue it, instead of reframing those concepts in a way that is easy to understand? And how that is totally taken advantage of by the right? IMO "identity politics" wouldn't be as great a wedge issue if many didn't try to just use critical race theory as taught in academia directly instead of tailoring an argument based on it towards the audience in question. Lightning Lord has issued a correction as of 11:39 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 11:35
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