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Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

The storm has a name... - Let's Read TORG


Part 18b: A history of violence

The first chapter of the book is about The Cosm of Tharkold, but really it's focused on discussion of the Tharloldu and the Race. And we start with the Tharkoldu, so get ready for some loving :biothruths:.

The Thakoldu are, for wont of a better word, demons. They are naturally violent beings who gain psychic sustenance (and fun) from chaos and the pain and terror of others. As far as they're concerned, humans are prey. Period. Humanity's natural place in the world is to serve the Tharkoldu as slaves and food. The problem is that the drat monkeys won't accept their place, and instead of using strength or ferocity to defend themselves (as is right and proper by Tharkoldu thinking), they use tricks and treachery.

Tharkoldu instinctively resist the idea of a "central government", and as a result their governmental and cultural structure can best be described as "feudal clans". The most ferocious demons are in charge, but only if they can hold on to the position. From there, things operate in a sort of "domination pyramid"; all Tharkoldu relationships basically boil down to the concepts of domination and submission.

quote:

A pride is dominated by an alpha. All the demons in a pride are submissive to the alpha. This does not mean that the alpha has defeated all the pride members in combat. Many prides contain members who have voluntarily submitted to the alpha in order to participate in some activity at which the pride excels. For example, most powerful Tharkoldu magicians are alphas, dominating prides composed of their students and assistants.

An average pride contains 20 demons, all dominated by a single alpha. The largest pride has slightly over 100 members, and a small pride can consist of a single paired dominant and submissive.

A great alpha dominates a great pride, made up primarily of alphas. An average great pride contains 20 alphas. Thus, a typical great alpha indirectly dominates about 400 demons.
The next step up are the Demon Lords, who typically control a few dozen great alphas each. But given how the chain of domination (oh god I can't believe I just typed that) works, they actually control a few thousand lesser Tharkoldu.

At the top of this weird-rear end pyramid are the 64 Demon Princes. These are the ones who dominate the Lords (as well as their own retinues), and as such can indirectly command tens of thousands of demons. Two of the most powerful Princes, Trog Ammoz of the Scarlet Waste and Sterret of the Blades, each control over a million Tharkoldu each.

Technically speaking, the High Lord should be at the top of this whole pyramid scheme, but while the Princes submitted to Kranod (thanks in no small part to his Darkness Device) the majority haven't submitted to Jezrael yet.

quote:

There are prides that do not owe ultimate submission to a Prince, or even a great alpha. Some are outlaw prides, predators who prey upon other demons. Some are new prides, or prides whose chain of dominance has been broken by the death or conquest of a superior. Demons at all levels are constantly jockeying for more power. Every dominant, from the newest alpha to the most powerful Princes, is well aware that those who submitted yesterday are probably plotting against it today.
All this begs the question: if their inherent natures fight against the idea of working together on an equal level, how the hell can the Tharkoldu have anything approaching a functioning society?

The reason given in the book is that the Tharkoldu are intelligent enough to override their instincts, even though they don't like it. Which...okay?

quote:

They can transcend their instincts. They don't like it, they don't do it unless they have to, but one of the tests of intelligence is the ability to overcome or sublimate instinct in order to achieve abstract goals. Demonkind passes that test.
Sure, let's go with that. Apparently the other reason the Tharkoldu are capable of not constantly ripping each other to shreds is because they're operating under the world's high Social axiom. Regardless, the demons don't organize into human-style social structures (family -> tribe -> village -> city -> nation), instead organizing into prides, strongholds, and demesnes.

Tharkoldu are also able to repress their natural instincts in pursuit of abstract concepts like capitalism or research. Of course, they're still built around the whole dominance/subservience thing so Tharkoldu tend to be pretty violent in their pursuit of these ideas. Economic contests turn into struggles for monopolies, with a few Princes controlling what little economic structure Tharkoldu culture has. As for science...really, most Tharkoldu technology comes from the humans. Humanity has had to advance quickly to survive in the War, and "properly motivated" Race slaves are the main source of discoveries on the Tharkoldu side.

Next up we go into Strongholds and Demesnes, which we mentioned a bit earlier.

quote:

Tharkoldu are territorial. Make that TERRITORIAL! Entering a demon's territory uninvited is a direct challenge and usually risks immediate and violent reprisals. Alphas, great alphas, and Lords establish their territory in strongholds. Princes dominate numerous strongholds in an organization called a demesne. There are 66 demesnes on Tharkold: 65 are ruled by the Princes. The 66th is Oris, the demesne of the High Lord.
The stronghold is the basic geographical social construct...thing. There's no real set size; a single stronghold might be a small estate, or the size of a city. It's really more about how well whoever's in charge can control and defend it than population or anything.

A demense is more like a country, although they're much smaller than what we'd consider a country. The largest demense, Dzis, only has a population of two million Tharkoldu spread out over the world's equivalent of Africa and Madagascar. For reference, that's about the population of Nevada spread out over a whole continent.

It's also worth pointing out that demnses don't just house Demons. The global human population is estimated at 1.5 billion (it being hard to get an accurate count at the moment), and just under half of that number live as slaves in the demenses. To put this in perspective, the global population as I'm writing this in March 2017 is 7.4 billion. Dzis itself contains almost 60 million Race slaves, used for everything from mining to breeding stock to generate more humansslaves.

Which...brings us to Demonic Breeding and Population. And if you think this is gonna be uncomfortable to read, rest assured it's even more uncomfortable to write because you're just reading my summary. I had to read the whole drat thing.

So let's just get this out of the way: Tharkoldu are natural hermaphrodites, capable of either seeding or gestating a child. And how is it determined who in the relationship does which? That's right: through the line of domination! The dominant Demon gets to pick who's going to impregnate the other (the "Inseminator") and who's going carry the child to term (the "Gestator"). In fact, Demons who aren't in a dominance/submissive relationship can't conceive. It's also not unheard of for a dominant Tharkoldu to cement dominance though...

...you know what? I'm not going to finish that sentence.

While a Demon is pregnant, both the Thorkoldu in the relationship lose their hermaphroditic "abilities" (their word, not mine), even though there's no reason the one who impregnated the other would have to. The given explanation (which would be pretty much confirmed in the world history) is "because magic" so whatever. In addition, the submissive Demon cannot plot or betray the other because magic again.

Tharkoldu gestation takes 22 months, although after about 11 months the embryo is usually removed from the parent and placed in a magically-enhanced incubator on the property of a Tharkoldu lord or prince. Near as I can tell, this is mainly to keep the species capable of growth while still leaving as many Demons available for the War as possible. Tharkoldu are carnivores from birth, which may be another reason for the chambers. It's incredibly rare for a Tharkoldu to give birth to more than one child at once. We need to know all this because reasons, but the takeaway is that the Tharkoldu birth and population growth rates are far lower than humans'.

Oh, and just as an FYI: Jezrael has managed to impregnate the Demon Prince Krezlakh (the first Prince to submit to her) through a mix of techno-magic and metaplot. This is actually an "important" plot point later on down the line.

A Tharkoldu reaches physical maturity around 8-10 years old, and barring violence they'll live to about 150-200 years on average (Kranod lived for about 600 years, but he had the Darkness Device so that doesn't really count). Of course, "barring violence" isn't really an option for their species and world. The global Tharkoldu population hovers about 40 million, which is very low, especially compared to the humans. The main reason they've managed to last through the War is because even a 10-year-old Tharkoldu is capable of killing a small group of soldiers on its own. As far as the species is concerned, there's no such thing as a "non-combatant".

Jumping ahead a bit, the other reason is that, when the species as a whole is threatened, the Tharkoldu will form a "swarm" and rally around a central figure...without honoring the normal lines of submission! :wotwot: :monocle: During a swarm, all Tharkoldu become focused only on the enemy. Old grievances, the concept of internal dominance, all that is put aside as the Demons focus all their anger on their enemy. Swarms are incredibly rare events, with the most recent being 600 years ago. In fact, the leader of that swarm was Kranod, was empowered by the Gaunt Man, and resulted in the military stalemate that's lasted until the recent ousting of Kranod.

And now we come to the religion of the Tharkoldu: The Cult of the Dominant. And it's disgusting.

quote:

"Omoo-Zhan, Progenitor of Demonkind, the self-begotten, Itself It bore, inseminator and gestator, within the womb of stars. Wings flaring, eyes burning, did Omoo-Zhan fly Its hunting dance among the stars. Talons tearing, fangs biting, did Ommo-Zhan seize Creation by the throa and bear it down. Before Omoo-Zhan, the Universe did bare the throat. Unto Gestator Omoo-Zhan did Inseminator Universe submit. And <She> bore many children from <His> seed, and we shall rule the worlds."
-From the "Kraznavekta"
That's right: the Tharkoldu think their race was created by the universe being raped.

WHAT THE gently caress??

Why? Why would anyone feel the need to make this up? I get it, they're evil! You pretty much established that when you had them fighting and enslaving humanity. What, were they worried we wouldn't "get" it without this little factoid?

Ugh, it's just...it's just disgusting. There's no reason and no excuse for this.

You know what? I'm not even going to cover this section, even though it's only four paragraphs. Moving on. Time to talk about humans.

Humanity on Tharkold is collectively known as The Race, and for the most part have been forced to become almost completely mono-cultural (and, in a manner of speaking, mono-ethnicity) due to thousands of years of war effectively wiping out the major cultural differences.

quote:

The Race is composed of human beings. Human beings who have survived three millennia of unending War. Human beings whose foes uses pain and terror as their weapons of choice. Human beings whose world is blotched with hostile wastelands, plague spots of technological and magical mass destruction. Human beings who have fought for six centuries against the power of a High Lord.

In other words, very, very tough human beings. Think of the human resistance in the Terminator movies. Then think of what they might be like after another dozen decades of warfare.
That description was doing alright until they threw in the Terminator reference.

The Race places high value on the honor, bonds of friendship, and love, because those are the things that have enabled them to fight back against the Tharkoldu for so long. Which isn't to say that Race soldiers aren't capable of being as vicious or brutal as the demons; after all this is a war for survival of their species. But it's the ability to still maintain the concepts of trust and friendship that keeps the Race from becoming as merciless as the Tharkoldu. So far.

Unfortuantely for the Race, the harsh violence they need to commit to survive actually helps the Tharkoldu, because their fear and anguish that's just accepted as "the price of war" feeds the Darkness Device Malgest. In fact, the reason the Race has managed to stay in the War for the past six centuries is because Kranod let them. By allowing the Race to maintain their numbers and keep the Nations running, it was able to use the Race's emotional energy to feed Malgest and keep himself in power. Keeping the "monkeys" alive also provided the High Lord with a challenge, as well as a way to keep the slave pens fresh via what can best be described as "free range" humans.

Of course, this all bit Kranod in the rear end when he failed in his invasion of Kadandra just before the start of the Possibility Wars. If the High Lord hadn't let the humans stay that organized, or if it'd taken the free humans more seriously as a threat, they wouldn't have been able to mount a decent offensive when the Tharkoldu bridges got destroyed (briefly turning the tide of the War) and Malgest wouldn't have abandoned it for Jezrael.

All that said, now that Jezrael has instigated a successful second invasion of Core Earth, it's entirely possible that she'll get enough P-energy and resources to conquer (or exterminate) the Race once and for all. But if she fails, Malgest would more than likely just abandon the world altogether; the centuries-long hold the Tharkoldu have on their world could finally slip, and the Race might finally be able to defeat the demons for good once the Darkness Device isn't in play. More than any other reality, the events currently unfolding on Core Earth are vital to the future of one of the invading worlds.


You see me now a veteran, of a thousand Tharkold wars

The Race are currently assembled into mega-enclaves known as the Five Nations. There's not a lot of detail about them, and they don't really have an effect on anything, but let's touch base with them anyway.
  • Aurioch covers most of the "Middle East"; Israel, Syria, Iraq, and so on. Aurioch is the most technologically advanced Nation, and is run by a military council.
  • Kham looks like a monarchy at first glance, but the "ruler" is really just a figurehead for the military high command. Kham is incredibly beurocratic and covers most of Africa.
  • Helfei is where Europe is on Core Earth, and is really a collection of sixteen heavily fortified city-states. Each one is run by a warlord, but all six warlords meet to discuss policy for the entire Nation.
  • Jhou is on the Chinese/Korean peninsula, and is the largest Nation in a geographic sense. This means that they're also one of the major targets for demonic forces. Jhou is a military dictatorship run by a single warlord.
  • Mizatyan comprises the three islands of Japan, and while it's the second most technologically advanced, it's the most self-sufficient. This is because it's surrounded by the demense of Demon Prince Krothard Hellbear, whose stronghold is actually deep under the mountains of Hokkaido.
There are other Race enclaves, of course, but by comparison they're barely military outposts.

And now that we've gotten that information nobody cares about out of the way, let's talk about the "religion" of the Race, called The Way of the Race.

quote:

"And upon the mountain tops, the People slew many of the Demonkind, for the Will of the Race was to survive. And after the wrack of the battle, the People turned their faces to heaven, and cried aloud.

'Behold, here is Thy holocaust, oh God. We are the Race, and before us Thou shalt have no others. For we are a jealous people'..."

- Book of Liberation
The Way of the Race is less a religion and more of a warrior's creed that's evolved (or been warped, depending on how you look at it) by the War. The Way of the Race emphasizes the need for unity in the face of a common foe and the need for action. Every Race victory is an expression of God's will, and the Way places the need of the species as a whole over the needs of the individual. This idea sort of works in reverse as well: an individual is an instrument of the will of the Race, and therefor is an instrument of the will of God. The Way promotes the ideals of unity and trust between humans, and the need to stay unified. Hang together, or hang separately.

The Way has no central religious structure (and thus no "universal" methods), and while each of the Nations are teaching from the same book (as it were), there are slight cultural differences in how each Nation's priesthood operates. The Way also exists among the slaves in Tharkoldu territory, but not in any public way.

quote:

The penalties for any slave found practicing the Way are ghastly, designed to terrify. At one time, the demons broadcast the hideous executions of those caught following the Way, to intimidate the other slaves. However, this practice ceased after the uprising of 2978, when the heroine Veda managed to invoke the miracle of liberation during her death agonies, turning her execution into the required ritual by sheer force of faith and will. Over 20,000 slaves were freed of domination and wrought
havoc on their former masters until the uprising was put down with enormous loss of life and property.


I don't know what's going on here, but I'm assuming it's bad.

And now it's time to talk about the history of the Tharkoldu cosm. Which is to say, it's time to talk about The War.

The War has been going on for 3,000 years. The first year of the War occurred in the equivalent of 1200 BC on Core Earth. For non-History majors, that's a little after the siege of Troy. This event was the first recorded clash between humans and Tharkoldu, but the book doesn't say if the Tharkoldu existed in the world before then, or if they invaded from another world, or what. Given that the only recorded history of the cosm starts at War Year 1, it's pretty likely that information's been long lost.

The attacks of the demons resulted in a rapid increase in human technological and magical advancement. The humans gained an early victory when an ancient king developed spells that were lethal to Tharkoldu but not humans. It would be 200 years before the demons developed an effective counterspell to swing things back to their favor.

In WY 483, the Jhou developed the first gunpowder weapons, and as a direct response to this development the Tharkoldu assembled into the first recorded swarm. This colored the path of the War for centuries to come: one side would develop a new technological or arcane weapon, resulting in a heavy reprisal by the other side.

The arms race swung back and forth fot 1,500 years, at which point an incredible holocaust known as The Spasm took place. Over the course of several weeks, both sides unleashed dozens of different weapons fueled by the high Technological and Magic axioms. Nuclear weapons were launched, bio-engineered plagues released, summoned elementals were unleashed, and magically created waves of madness swept across the face of the world. To make matters worse, magic and technology were combined to create major seismological events that destroyed continents.

But while the Spasm itself ended after a few weeks, the aftereffects lasted for centuries. Huge swathes of the world were rendered inhabitable to humans and demons alike. The seismic activity greatly increased the levels of earthquakes and volcanic activity worldwide. Really, it's a miracle (thanks to the high Spiritual axiom) that all life on Tharkoldu wasn't wiped out.

The demons made out better in the immediate aftermath of the Spasm due to being more naturally attuned to the needs of a post-apocalyptic wasteland; i.e. hunting in packs and working on instinct. The Race, on the other hand, were scattered by the events.

But once again, the pendulum of battle swung back to the humans' side. As both species crawled out of the wreckage of the Spasm, mages on both sides came to a shocking discovery: many of their most powerful spells no longer worked. While this was a bad turn for the Race, it was a far worse discovery for the Tharkoldu. The demons' metabolisms and breeding cycles were very dependent on magic. Tharkoldu numbers dwindled quickly as their birth rate plummeted, and the Race wasted no time in taking advantage of the situation. Demons were forced out of human territories and hunted down like animals.

It wouldn't be for another 700 years that the reason for this was discovered: Tharkold's Magic axiom was declining as a result of the Spasm. It was rapidly approaching a point where it'd be too low to support supernatural entities like demons. If the Race didn't end up wiping out the Tharkoldu, then reality itself would do the job for them.

quote:

At this time, the Tharkoldu had no knowledge of the cosmverse, of its Everlaws and Axioms. Before the Spasm, the art of magic had achieved great heights, and the demons still remembered much of what they had known. The recent rediscovery of computer technology allowed Tharkoldu to accurately model the levels of magical energy available to them. There was no possible doubt. If Tharkoldu could not find a way to reverse this trend, they were doomed to extinction.

A desperate plan emerged from a great swarm of scholars, magicians, and scientists. The Warlord Kranod, a mighty Prince and cunning mage, was given charge of the best minds Tharkoldu could produce. Kranod's task force constructed a technomagical probe, combining the forces of sorcery and the most advanced technology available to them. In 2314 the project launched a carefully programmed beam of energy from a secret laboratory in Kranod's stronghold. If their theories were correct, the probe would pass through a multi-dimensional matrix, and would seek out the most powerful source of magical energy within its range.
The probe was successfully launched, and it did indeed find the most powerful source of magical energy it could: the Darkness Device Heketon, servant and master to the Gaunt Man.



The Gaunt Man found the Tharkoldu facinating, and realized they would be a useful tool in his long-term goal of multiversal destruction.

Thus a bargain was struck: Kranod would submit to the Gaunt Man, and in return the Gaunt Man would prevent demonkind's extinction. Kranod accepted the terms almost immediately, knowing he really didn't have much of a choice. Within weeks the other Princes submitted to the Gaunt Man as well, and in return were rewarded with armies of horrors from Orrorsh.

It only took a few years for the demons to conquer the American continents. The supernatural forces of the Gaunt Man didn't need to rest and harried the humans non-stop, preventing the Race from getting even a second to mount a counter-attack.

But the Gaunt Man can't change his nature. While he kept his end of the bargain and prevented the Tharkoldu from dying out, he did so on his terms. He stabalized the cosm's Magical axiom at 7...but the minimum level for supernatural creatures to exist "comfortably" is 8. The Tharkoldu were still alive, but were being starved for the magical energies they needed to survive. Or, at least, survive without constant hunger and pain.

To solve the problem, Demons and human slaves developed a very clumsy technology known as LifeCyber. These surgically implanted technological systems augmented the demons' metabolism, allowing them to live in the low-magic reality. This was the birth of cybertechnology on Tharkold.

After a century of serving the Gaunt Man in other cosms, Kranod was on a mission for his master on an unnamed world when he heard a strange song calling to him. Following the "voice", he came across an ancient temple housing...well, more accurate to say trapping a strange onyx staff. This was the Darkness Device Malgest, and after an unknown time being locked away it was more than willing to bond itself with Kranod.

Returning to Tharkoldu with a Darkness Device of his own, Kranod wasted no time launching his own reality invasions. Kranod also began twisting his home cosm's World Laws and raising the Magic axiom back up to its original level. Because of this, the demons no longer needed LifeCyber to live, but cybernetics had become a common mark of power among the Tharkoldu and as such was central piece of the demons' self-image.

Kranod ruled the cosm for over 500 years as its High Lord, deliberately keeping the Race at a barely sustainable level for both his and Malgest's amusement. Then, finally, word came from the Gaunt Man: he had found a world richer in Possibility energy than any discovered before. Kranod was to join forces with a group of other High Lords to perform a multi-front attack on this "Earth". But Kranod's greed got the better of him, and he decided shortly before the invasion to get a quick reinforcement of P-energy from a world called Kadandra...

...and we all know what happened after that.

---

Man, look at all that poo poo you don't care about and that I wrote.

I realize I'm beating the dead horse here about how there's all this backstory for cosms that doesn't need to be anywhere near this detailed, but for some reason Tharkold's is one of the worst, and not just because of the rapey bits (although that's part of it).

Like, I get that, as a completely new race, we need info on the Tharkoldu and how they operate and everything. But the problem here is that the information is very unbalanced. We get a bunch of detail on the Tharkoldu and their society, but almost nothing for the Race itself. There's nothing about how human culture operates after three millennia of war, how the Free Nations get along, what the actual differences are between being from Kham versus being from Mizatyan. Once again, again, they don't seem to get the difference between what they think is cool or important about the setting, and what a GM or player would think is important.

We're not out of the fluff woods yet, though. We still have the realm to cover!


NEXT TIME: Mean Streets

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Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
A friend once wanted to use octagons for mapping, because hexes offered more granular turning than squares, and therefore octagons were more granular than hexagons.

Except for the part where they don't fit flush.

In retrospect, I'm not sure he wasn't having me on.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 hours!
I don't have that gene that lets you play tabletop games that enforce turning radii without wanting to die.

Lichtenstein
May 31, 2012

It'll make sense, eventually.
Good news: I think there's enough fun content to give Witcher a go.
Bad news: I might have lost the coolest and weirdest splatbook, on espionage, where straight up James Bond poo poo was pulled into the Witcher world.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

Lichtenstein posted:

Bad news: I might have lost the coolest and weirdest splatbook, on espionage, where straight up James Bond poo poo was pulled into the Witcher world.

Noooooooooooooo

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Rented the Numenara game because, gently caress it, how does this awful system translate to gaming and killed myself and was forced to restart the game within 4 button presses during the tutorial for choosing what sounded like the most fun option.

Yep, this is gonna be numenara

Big Hubris
Mar 8, 2011


LatwPIAT posted:

This, so much. Eclipse Phase has a serious case of biting way more than it can chew, so it tries to run Delta Green and Global Frequency in space, with characters that should have every possible background in terms of life story, employment, current residence and political allegiances and also the political groups are at each other's throats for a wide variety of reasons. It's much like Werewolf: the Apocalypse, where each of the 13-or-so playable tribes hate at least one other tribe. Lunars don't trust AGIs and hate people in synthmorphs, the Morningstar Coalition doesn't like the Planetary Consortium for political reasons, Jovians hate everyone but especially the Autonomists and also won't use the fun technology the setting has, Autonomists don't like capitalists (basically half the setting), Mercurials don't like bio-conservatives, Extropians are Autonomists who don't like other Autonomists, Brinkers just want to be left alone...

If they'd cut it down so the only playable options were competent anti-TITAN operatives from one political group, it'd probably come out as a more coherent game.

Orbitals, Lunars, and Jovians get along. Reclaimers work well with nerds and each other. Loonies and Orbitals have reason to hate Mars. Mercury is at a crossroads and is uncertain about its future because while MARS STRONK,

Mercurials don't want to be transhuman, they're separatists.

Cassa
Jan 29, 2009

Barudak posted:

Rented the Numenara game because, gently caress it, how does this awful system translate to gaming and killed myself and was forced to restart the game within 4 button presses during the tutorial for choosing what sounded like the most fun option.

Yep, this is gonna be numenara

How does that even happen? Just a non-standard game over?

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Cassa posted:

How does that even happen? Just a non-standard game over?

Non standard game over.

You start the game waking up. It turns out you are falling from the sky and if you dont attempt to stall and instead look at your surroundings or choose to speed up your descent you die, get an achievement for killing yourself, and are kicked back to the main menu and told to try again. Note, stalling does nothing but trigger the cutscene that prevents you from dying, so its purely writer fiat that not doing that kills you.

The game does, however, immediately fix the most glaring core gameplay problem of Numenara by making health a separate number from your three pools and all damage goes to it. The terrible self title system during chatacter creation is still around so its not all for the better.

Hipster Occultist
Aug 16, 2008

He's an ancient, obscure god. You probably haven't heard of him.


It's actually got some really solid writing though, you should press on with it.

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*

Barudak posted:

Non standard game over.

You start the game waking up. It turns out you are falling from the sky and if you dont attempt to stall and instead look at your surroundings or choose to speed up your descent you die

Wow.

I thought getting an instant game over within ten minutes was pretty Monte Cook, but that's even more impressive.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Hipster Occultist posted:

It's actually got some really solid writing though, you should press on with it.

Im here for the mechanics and comparing it to the book its based on so Im going to until it has nothing else to show.

The game pesters you during the tutorial and during loading screens that "failing can be just as interesting at succeeding" skill checks, forces you to redo skill checks at a penalty if you fail for all skill checks Ive encountered so far. This is in the rules, but I was hoping it wouldnt be implemented. At least unlike core Numenara they tell you the exact % chance of success you have instead of having to guess.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Barudak posted:

You start the game waking up. It turns out you are falling from the sky and if you dont attempt to stall and instead look at your surroundings or choose to speed up your descent you die, get an achievement for killing yourself, and are kicked back to the main menu and told to try again. Note, stalling does nothing but trigger the cutscene that prevents you from dying, so its purely writer fiat that not doing that kills you.
Something something GM Intrusion.

RocknRollaAyatollah
Nov 26, 2008

Lipstick Apathy


Chapter Two and Chapter Five: The Clans of Caine and the Gifts of the Blood


Seriously? I’m getting tired of your poo poo Athelbald

Clans, Bloodlines, and Class

This section of the review won’t be as straightforward as the previous entries for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that the book presents information in a standard White Wolf fashion, compartmentalized and kind of counter-intuitive, and assumes you know the setting. This is a 20th anniversary edition of a setting so it’s honestly somewhat expected, this isn’t made primarily for new players. Either way, the combining of the sections on clans, bloodlines, and disciplines will give a better picture of the clans since disciplines are pretty integral to their identities.

So what is a clan? A clan is a large family of vampires that are generally descended from an Antediluvian and have been around for a long time. There are some exceptions to this, the Tremere, who come on to the scene right before the Dark Ages setting, and the Giovanni, who step up around the time period of the founding of the Camarilla. They are usually pretty common relative to bloodlines and usually follow standard vampire archetypes.

Well what the gently caress is a bloodline then? A bloodline is a minor, distinct family of vampires that is usually descended from a clan. It’s possible for a clan to become a bloodline. The Salubri for instance were demoted after Tremere diablerized Saulot and essentially usurped their status as a clan. The Giovanni started out as a bloodline of the Capadocians and are one during this time. How are bloodlines formed? :iiam: It’s very vague in Masquerade but generally most bloodline founders are 4th to 5th generation if they’re known at all. Someone can probably prove me wrong but bloodlines tend to be outside the purview of players.

As stated before, a clan is like one’s family. It’s a vampire’s lineage before getting down to the knitty gritty of who sired who. Just like family names in Medieval European society, one’s clan carries some societal weight. Clans are generally divided into high and low clans. Who is high and who is low differs from location to location and local traditions as mentioned before. In the standard Western European setting though, revised grouped them as such.

The High Clans: Brujah, Cappadocian, Lasombra, Toreador, Tzimisce, Ventrue
The Low Clans: Assamites, Followers of Set, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Ravnos, Tremere

Generally the high clans are the ones that easily pass for human and are more socially acceptable. The Assamites, Setites, and Ravnos are outsiders from Asia so they’re low. The Malkavians are mentally ill and the Nosferatu are all ugly. The Gangrel take on bestial traits over time, don’t like to play social games, and don’t tend to care so they’re low. The Tremere are low because they’re hermetic wizards who are viewed as usurpers or worse by everyone.

This can all change by geographic location. An example is given of Cairo and how the Setites are the highest clan there due to it being their ancestral base of operations. I would imagine the Assamites would have a similar status in Persia, where they are based.

Low clans have to defer to high clans and follow the pecking order. When a vampire enters a new domain The have to figure out the pecking order or they might run into some trouble. Bloodlines are always considered to have a status similar to low clans or lower. There are some exceptions, the Salubri are often still given respect but that is changing as the star of Tremere rises. The Tremere have been running a successful campaign against the Salubri, painting them as diabolists and by the time of Masquerade they are generally regarded as such.


Not a time to lose one’s head, right guys? Right?

Disciplines

Vampires have powers unique to them called disciplines. Some of these powers are unique to clans and some are general powers that any vampire can easily learn. Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence can be learned without a teacher and are basically harnessing the vampiric condition. Vampires can also learn their clan disciplines without a teacher. Learning a rare or clan/bloodline specific discipline requires a vampire to drink the blood of one of those vampires and for them to teach them how to use the discipline. This isn’t done lightly due to blood bonds but is also one of the reasons that Sabbat vampires in Masquerade tend to be broken, blood bonds don’t really matter to them as much.

High-Level Disciplines

Vampires of 7th generation and lower can learn the advanced powers of disciplines. Standard disciplines generally have up to 9 levels and a 7th generation vampire can access the 6th level or dot, a 6th generation vampire can access a 7th dot, and so on. These powers are generally pretty powerful and aren’t often open to PC’s. The 10th dot is only accessible by the Antediluvian since they created the disciplines.

Combination Discplines

Combination disciplines, they’re called devotions in Requiem, are using two disciplines in tandem as part of a formula. Vampires can learn these specific combinations through the expenditure of experience points.

Blood Sorcery

These are specialized forms of blood magic that are specific to vampire clans or bloodlines but can be learned by nonmembers. They come in different styles and flavors but the most common are Thaumaturgy and Necromancy. Abyss Mysticism and Koldunic Sorcery are also detailed in this book but there are more varieties available in Tome of Secrets as well as more stuff for the ones covered here.

Blood sorcery tends to be expensive because each type is generally composed of paths that you have to buy dots in like any other discipline. When dots are purchased for a blood sorcery, the vampire gains a dot in their main path and a ritual of equal or lesser level. Sorcerers can learn other paths but they can’t buy a dot above their discipline rating. There are no limitations to how many rituals a vampire can learn, only in the levels they can buy like path dots.

Blood sorcery tends to be quite powerful but is theoretically limited by a vampire’s generation in Masquerade, where it’s higher and they can’t do as much. Vampires in Dark Ages generally don’t have as much of a problem because they’re lower generation and can spend more blood per round.



Some disciplines use willpower but holding more blood and being able to spend more blood a round makes a character insanely powerful at times.

Mechanics

This is a standard White Wolf/Onyx Path joint so all your rolling for actions and disciplines is going to be Attribute + Ability + Bonus. You’ll have a target difficulty based on the specific action but it’s generally around a 6 or 7. It can be higher or lower, it’s all based on what the book says or how the storyteller feels. A 3 is trivial and a 9 is extremely difficult. There are no 10 rated difficulties. There are degrees of success and how many successes you roll impacts the action you’re taking. If you have a specialty, four or more dots in an attribute or ability you get an area of specialization, 10’s rolled count as two successes. I’ll address other mechanics when disciplines mess with them but I think that's it for now.

Next time on V20's Dark Ages, some clans.

RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 18, 2017

Mr.Misfit
Jan 10, 2013

The time for
SkellyBones
has come!

RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

[snip]
Mechanics

This is a standard White Wolf/Onyx Path joint so all your rolling for actions are disciplines is going to be Attribute + Ability + Bonus. You’ll have a target difficulty based on the specific action but it’s generally around a 6 or 7. It can be higher or lower, it’s all based on what the book says or how the storyteller feels. A 3 is trivial and a 9 is extremely difficult. There are no 10 rated difficulties. There are degrees of success and how many successes you roll impacts the action you’re taking. If you have a specialty, four or more dots in an attribute or ability you get an area of specialization, 10’s rolled count as two successes. I’ll address other mechanics when disciplines mess with them but I think that's it for now.
[...]

Whenever I read this, I have to think of Greg Stolze and REIGN and that little story about him asking on "how do you set difficulties in this" and the WoD-people were like "Eh....wing it.". Which is hilarious when you think about how most of the mechanics for these games must have come together. Just think of the pitch meeting with writers thinking up ways on how to upstage others by writing more powerful things without regards for mechanics because no one know how or cares whether the mechanics even work as as intended...

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
I can't comprehend why they still think flexible TNs are a great alright printable idea.

RocknRollaAyatollah
Nov 26, 2008

Lipstick Apathy

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I can't comprehend why they still think flexible TNs are a great alright printable idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A

The 90's and early 00's were a hell of a time, somewhere between the story game revolution and being mired in legacy mechanics.They really don't have an excuse these days.

Berkshire Hunts
Nov 5, 2009

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I can't comprehend why they still think flexible TNs are a great alright printable idea.

tbf the 20th anniversary lines are nostalgia products that were never supposed to modernize the rules

Mr.Misfit
Jan 10, 2013

The time for
SkellyBones
has come!

Deviating from general thread here just to note that I unironically adore that movie/musical. Except for maybe one song, just about everything about that works and Tradition is a great song to get a first glimpse into the mindset of a russian jew at the Fin-De-Siecle.

Mr.Misfit fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Mar 19, 2017

Communist Zombie
Nov 1, 2011

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I can't comprehend why they still think flexible TNs are a great alright printable idea.

Id say flexible TNs could work but you would either need a flat amount of successes or dice, essentially trading TN for that, or with an understanding of what changing them would mean probability wise and and a concrete well defined reason/goal that you're using them.

Has any game ever done the second way? I want to say Exalted Sidereals (basic excellency, not the rest of their charms) but im not sure if they worked by accident or by actually doing the math

Communist Zombie fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Mar 18, 2017

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Mr.Misfit posted:

Deviating from general thread here just to note that I unironically adore that movie/musical. Except for maybe one song, just about everything about that works and Tradition is a great song to get a first glimpse into the mindset of a russian jew at the [i]Fin-De-Siecle[i].

Fiddler is an amazing musical drawing from the stories of a truly amazing writer. Sholom Aleichem is a hell of a thing.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


Communist Zombie posted:

Id say flexible TNs could work but you would either need a flat amount of successes or dice, essentially trading TN for that, or with an understanding of what changing them would mean probability wise and and a concrete well defined reason/goal that you're using them.

Has any game ever done the second way? I want to say Exalted Sidereals (basic excellency, not the rest of their charms) but im not sure if they worked by accident or by actually doing the math

First edition Sidereals was built with a solid understanding of the math. Second edition sort of seems to have been, except sometimes not, plus their whole Charm set was hosed by tons of other things top to bottom.

ZorajitZorajit
Sep 15, 2013

No static at all...
So, quick shoutout to System Mastery for tipping me off to #GOPdnd. I'm sitting at 900+ retweets right now and am kinda :catstare:

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

I'd just like to point out that either nobody noticed my Tharkold post, or the tread in general seems to have become so jaded nobody felt the need to comment on the fact that the Tharkoldu believe their race was raped into existence.

I'm not sure which is the better answer.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I'm sorry I can't make myself read Torg. I know you're putting a ton of effort into it and it makes me feel bad but my eyes just slide off the page at it.

I imagine people do the same with my walls of text. :(

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 hours!

Evil Mastermind posted:

I'd just like to point out that either nobody noticed my Tharkold post, or the tread in general seems to have become so jaded nobody felt the need to comment on the fact that the Tharkoldu believe their race was raped into existence.

I'm not sure which is the better answer.

Dude I just laid out the story of Teenage Talent Jewish Hitler.

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable

I don't really know what I could post about the Tharkoldu creation myth except "it is terrible" and move on.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Halloween Jack posted:

Dude I just laid out the story of Teenage Talent Jewish Hitler.

I just want attention is all. :(

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Green Intern posted:

I don't really know what I could post about the Tharkoldu creation myth except "it is terrible" and move on.

This. You basically covered it in the review. I hope no one is going to defend it, and that's kind of what it would take to get people to talk about it much I think.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
Whoops, I missed it before. Was phone posting when it went up.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

ZorajitZorajit posted:

So, quick shoutout to System Mastery for tipping me off to #GOPdnd. I'm sitting at 900+ retweets right now and am kinda :catstare:

Hah I thought our 62 was a big deal, you musta said something real good.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion


I just don't feel any need to muster up the energy to think about Torg. I respect the effort you're putting in without caring about the actual subject matter.

ZorajitZorajit
Sep 15, 2013

No static at all...

theironjef posted:

Hah I thought our 62 was a big deal, you musta said something real good.

Honestly, I thought it was only middling, I saw much better ones.

me posted:

DM:"The dragon rests on a hoard of gold."
PC:"We gather the town's wealth and add it in. The dragon will surely create jobs now."

Barudak
May 7, 2007

I read all the posts, even the ones where I cant fathom who would play or write this game.

Then I hunt down game adaptations and see what got cut from the rules. RIFTS strategy game for the NGAGE here I come.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Honestly, I thought it was only middling, I saw much better ones.

Nah, that's pretty nice.

Young Freud
Nov 26, 2006

Evil Mastermind posted:

I'd just like to point out that either nobody noticed my Tharkold post, or the tread in general seems to have become so jaded nobody felt the need to comment on the fact that the Tharkoldu believe their race was raped into existence.

I'm not sure which is the better answer.

Isn't there a bit that it's speculated that the Tharkoldu were seeded into that dimension, like they never should have existed but where basically dimensional invaders to begin with. Also, if you think that origin story is bad, I suggest never finding the Creatures Of Thakhold book. One of the entries is on human-demon hybrids and all that entails. Also, for a genesis story, it barely comes close to Susano and Amaterasu and how Japan came to be, and that's because it wasn't made up for a game but an actual national identity is built around it.

Also, man, I can't believe you missed out on the reference to Lester Del Ray's "For I Am A Jealous People!" in the description of the Race. Also, the big hope with the Torg Eternity relaunch is that the Free Nations plays more an important part since it sounds like whatever happened had ramifications both on Earth and Tharkold.

The Lemondrop Dandy
Jun 7, 2007

If my memory serves me correctly...


Wedge Regret
I mostly lurk (except when folks mention Eclipse Phase, apparently) but I read every post like some kind of f&f junkie.

Tharkold is just gross. I'm having a hard time seeing how it could work at all as a fun setting to play in. Just more examples of how Torg missed the mark in so many ways.

Godlike continues to be rad, but I'd read the books already, so I already knew about the freaky Hitler-jewish-mind-transfer (?) Thing. I love Greg Stolze's superhero stuff. Wild Talents/ORE, especially his awesome setting Progenitor, is a soft spot for me.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Young Freud posted:

Isn't there a bit that it's speculated that the Tharkoldu were seeded into that dimension, like they never should have existed but where basically dimensional invaders to begin with.
I don't think there's ever any mention of if the Tharkoldu are native to the world or not.

quote:

Also, if you think that origin story is bad, I suggest never finding the Creatures Of Thakhold book. One of the entries is on human-demon hybrids and all that entails.

Already own it. I'm not going to cover it though.

quote:

Also, man, I can't believe you missed out on the reference to Lester Del Ray's "For I Am A Jealous People!" in the description of the Race.[quote]
At the risk of showing myself as unlearned, I don't know what that is. :(

[quote]Also, the big hope with the Torg Eternity relaunch is that the Free Nations plays more an important part since it sounds like whatever happened had ramifications both on Earth and Tharkold.
I doubt it; they already revealed that Russia is now a huge Tharkold/Core Earth Mad Max-ian mixed zone due to Russia launching nukes at the bridge when it touched down.

The Lemondrop Dandy posted:

Tharkold is just gross. I'm having a hard time seeing how it could work at all as a fun setting to play in. Just more examples of how Torg missed the mark in so many ways.
Well, that's just it: you're not supposed to be playing in any of the cosms themselves, you're supposed to setting everything in Core Earth. But they give every reality too much goddamn backstory on the off chance people would want to set a whole campaign there. Which is why the Nile Empire got a whole spin-off book on the home cosm of Terra. Which was pointless, because it's well established that you flat out cannot get from Core Earth to Terra.

I get wanting some background, so GMs have a foundation on how to present the realms. But the books always take it way too far.

Young Freud
Nov 26, 2006

Evil Mastermind posted:

I doubt it; they already revealed that Russia is now a huge Tharkold/Core Earth Mad Max-ian mixed zone due to Russia launching nukes at the bridge when it touched down.

Nah, what I'm talking about is that change at least gives more opportunity for Race characters, especially those from the Free Nations, to be in the game. Like the bridge collapse basically sucked a continent-sized area of Tharkoldu Earth and threw it up over Russia, including Free Nation outposts and the like. In the original game, there was very little opportunity for the Free Nations to get involved, since the Tharkoldu controlled access to the bridge, so non-Tharkoldu characters where either transformed Core Earthers, liberated slaves, or stragglers. There's a Race Soldier template, but very little explanation of how they got there.

Even the comic tie-in didn't use a Race character, but another Kadandra transplant.

I do think that someone's homebrew version of the Tharkoldu being ordinary people transformed into demons via excessive cybernetics had some interest, especially if Tharkold replaced the Hellraiser stuff (which, like it or not, is the genesis of some of the more unpleasant elements in Tharkold) with "Japanese Cyberpunk" like Tetsuo The Iron Man, Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei and the franchise that it spawned or Yasushi Nirasawa's "Creature Core" or "Phantom Core" (which would influence Tsutomu Nihei with BLAME! and Biomega, the contemporary torch bearers of the genre).

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unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
That 'demons being people transformed by too much cyberware" was me; mostly I just encountered TORG+ Feng Shui around the same time, and was an young idiot and stole the ideas from the latter for the former instead of just playing the Feng Shui.

I hadn't encountered Nihei at the time, but if I had there would probably have been a homebrew archetype of a talking bear with a gun.

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