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WhyteRyce posted:It's got interesting use cases in enterprise environments sure, but it won't help me load my FO4 load times so I don't see the point Ramdisk.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:15
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I haven't thought to consider that all the "Hepta RAID 0 ssd build!a!!!1" reddit posts that span SATA II and III interfaces in the same Intel RST arrays might get better bang for their buck with a ramdisk solution. For $300, an old desktop can live on as an always-on dedicated 64gb ramdisk cache against an old hard drive. Toss in a little more for a good hardware iSCSI NIC and 
Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 21:21
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Non volatile storage that is (almost) as fast as DRAM is the holy grail, so cache won't be lost with a power failure without having to use supercaps or batteries to back it up to nand. I wonder if the Xpoint is fast enough for raid controller memory and such. There's definitely a niche for it!
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Mar 19, 2017 21:39
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priznat posted:Non volatile storage that is (almost) as fast as DRAM is the holy grail, so cache won't be lost with a power failure without having to use supercaps or batteries to back it up to nand. Yeah it presents some interesting sounding (but unproven or theoretical) use cases and I die a little inside when people post "yeah but a 960 pro is bigger and look at this rate sequential read speed who cares"
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Mar 19, 2017 22:03
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WhyteRyce posted:Yeah it presents some interesting sounding (but unproven or theoretical) use cases and I die a little inside when people post "yeah but a 960 pro is bigger and look at this rate sequential read speed who cares" For sure. There is gonna be a very sizeable market for even the pcie based ones and I think the enterprise folks are screaming for the DIMM based. I had thought they were originally going to so DIMMs first but they must have had some issues. It's an interesting step past traditional nand and it will get more interesting as more performance is gotten from it and more applications are found or details are worked out.
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Mar 19, 2017 22:28
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priznat posted:I wonder if the Xpoint is fast enough for raid controller memory and such. 3dxpoint as turnkey storage appliance nonvolatile memory probably has the owners of old product lines like FAS and Isilion dreaming up how to sell "UNSTOPPABLE RELIABILITY." I'll bet any of you a nickel there's already marketing material for upselling to "LX-point 3D: Datacenter-Dependable DIMM" in their overpriced lovely appliance that isn't even on Xeon v4 yet. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 22:53
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quote:Running Sysbench 0.5 with a 70-30 read-write split, and with the data stored on a 400GB Intel DC P3700, the rack could handle only 1395 transactions per second. With the 375GB DC P4800X, that number soars to 16480 transactions per second with similar 99th-percentile latency. That's an impressive performance boost from mostly the same hardware. quote:$1,520 for 375GB. redeyes fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Mar 19, 2017 |
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Mar 19, 2017 23:01
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redeyes posted:loving ouch. That's a 100 fold reduction in price for that amount of nearline non-volatile storage with that kind of IOPS from just 10 years ago, and it fits in a single PCIe slot, not an entire 2U of space. It also looks like optane will have a bunch of additional capabilities. I expect the next server class chipset+xeon (C4000?) will have specific capabilities to take much better advantage of optane type devices (NVMe, DIMM, etc) that will be another step up again in performance and capabilities. This is really a first product to prepare the manufacturing and market, many more benefits are still to come.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:50
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm still waiting on an NVMe M.2 1TB drive to get to the $300 mark.
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Mar 20, 2017 01:13
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metallicaeg posted:¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Well, current pricing on the 1TB 960 EVO is $480, so figure ~9-12 months - or maybe we'll hit $350 sooner if/when other makers' products start to erode Samsung's ~Performance Hegemony~ at lower price points.
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Mar 20, 2017 01:20
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Except the current supply bottleneck may push that our further.
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Mar 20, 2017 02:14
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Yeah with the NAND shortage I'm not expecting anything anytime soon. I think that's the reason there's no BPX drive from mydigitalSSD yet in 1TB form.
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Mar 20, 2017 02:49
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metallicaeg posted:Yeah with the NAND shortage I'm not expecting anything anytime soon. I think that's the reason there's no BPX drive from mydigitalSSD yet in 1TB form. Yup, posted my response from them earlier in the thread. They may not release the 960 part because of supply issues.
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Mar 20, 2017 05:37
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The new state of storage: DRAM is faster than Optane is faster than Z-SSD is faster than NVMe SSD is faster than SATA SSD is faster than SATA HDD is faster than tape backup. It's caches all the way down.
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Mar 20, 2017 20:45
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Are there any M.2 2240 SSDs that don't completely suck. I have a Clevo N150RD laptop, currently it has a 256GB SM951 in there, and an ancient 240GB SATA Intel 330. There's an unused M.2 PCI-E slot there but it's 40mm long and the only official card the manufacturer puts in there is a 3G or 4G data card. It probably doesn't have SATA, so would need to be NVMe. The keying is on the opposite side to the slot that has the SM951 in it, so I think it's only 2 lane. Here's a picture of the motherboard in question I plan on upgrading the SM951 to either a PM961 or 960 Evo 512GB in the next month or so, putting Win10 Creators Update on it, and later swap out the intel 330 for a massive spinning rust drive I can fill with videos etc. The SM951 and Intel 330 will then be used to upgrade older PCs in the house. But I want to run a Linux VM and not have completely poo poo IO performance, so was thinking get something like a 128GB drive to put in there and give VMWare Workstation exclusive access to it, maybe even try dicking about with being able to both dual boot and have it work in a VM, so exclusive access to the entire drive is necessary for VMWare as that's the only way I could pull that off. The only 2240 drives I can find are Transcend and AData ones that don't exactly fill me with confidence, and are probably SATA. Is there anything decent out there in this form factor? Lum fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 22:59
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Why isn't non-volatile RAM cheaper? It seems like adding some flash to normal DIMMs along with enough capacitors to power a write down of the contents of the RAM would be much higher performing than Optane at only a modest bump in price, but a quick search just turned up ridiculously priced things like this.
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Mar 21, 2017 21:49
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My VARs pin the end of NAND shortage at q1/q2 2018, natural and political disasters notwithstanding.
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Mar 21, 2017 22:12
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:Why isn't non-volatile RAM cheaper? It seems like adding some flash to normal DIMMs along with enough capacitors to power a write down of the contents of the RAM would be much higher performing than Optane at only a modest bump in price, but a quick search just turned up ridiculously priced things like this. Think of the engineering hurdles that had to be cleared to make ssds as easy to work with as they are today. Trim, considerations for write amplification and performance, journaling and power loss, TPM, rest encryption, os optimization...hell, marketing ssds as reliable after the first impressions people got close to a decade ago ("well, I heard ssds wear out" was a thing in this thread even a year ago). Going from hdd to ssd for consumers involved the same load of invisible work that goes into tuning the use of new hardware tech to make it more than an expensive niche filler. Flip side of the coin is optane, which still will need tuning and iteration as ssds did above, but at least can be made to conceptually jive with how dimms work all the way down to "read bits with address lines." We won't be playing, "Well, that memory is written back to nonvolatile but THIS memory is only on volatile...." games with Optane like we sometimes do with ssd caches. * edit 1 - I'm phoneposting and I see where some of my delivery is disjointed / muddled, apologies. Tldr optane dimms can more closely and completely approximate dram dimms out of the fab; a lot of extra conceptual, software, and hardware work would go into making a hybrid/NV-cache dimm broadly usable. So, for $, go develop Optane. edit 2 - nvdimm by "we dump v to nv at power loss" is janky as heck and would necessitate an application that specifically knows how to take advantage of the nature of that ram after, say, rebooting. Seeing as you can rewarm a terabyte of information in ram cache in hilariously short time with nvme... *hopefully Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Mar 21, 2017 |
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Mar 21, 2017 22:35
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Lum posted:Are there any M.2 2240 SSDs that don't completely suck. Are you sure that slot even offers PCIe lanes? Some laptop companies use the M.2 connector, but only hookup USB/PCM lanes, even though it's not spec compliant. It works for the modem / bluetooth cards, but nothing else. You may also never find an M.2 drive that has that keying, no matter the length. :/
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Mar 22, 2017 00:47
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Lum posted:The keying is on the opposite side to the slot that has the SM951 in it, so I think it's only 2 lane. Here's a picture of the motherboard in question That slot appears to be a "B" keyed slot. Which means it technically could have the following interfaces: PCIe ×2, SATA, USB 2.0 and 3.0, audio, UIM, HSIC, SSIC, I2C and SMBus. However it is not required that all these interfaces are present. Looking at the spec sheet for your laptop, it specifically says Slot 3 is for 3G/LTE cards with a USB interface. The system block diagram in the service manual confirms this. It shows that slot as being connected to "USB 3.0, Port 8".
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Mar 22, 2017 14:32
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And the BIOS might only accept certain cards. You are likely do not be able to use the slot.
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Mar 22, 2017 14:41
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stevewm posted:That slot appears to be a "B" keyed slot. Which means it technically could have the following interfaces: PCIe ×2, SATA, USB 2.0 and 3.0, audio, UIM, HSIC, SSIC, I2C and SMBus. However it is not required that all these interfaces are present. The M.2 spec is really bad in this regard. There are a billion ways to make cards that will not function in a slot with matching keying.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:58
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stevewm posted:That slot appears to be a "B" keyed slot. Which means it technically could have the following interfaces: PCIe ×2, SATA, USB 2.0 and 3.0, audio, UIM, HSIC, SSIC, I2C and SMBus. However it is not required that all these interfaces are present. Looking at the spec sheet for your laptop, it specifically says Slot 3 is for 3G/LTE cards with a USB interface. The system block diagram in the service manual confirms this. It shows that slot as being connected to "USB 3.0, Port 8". Well poo poo.  Thank you though.I suppose that means I'll have leave that slot empy unless someone makes something I really need that's USB3. Guess I'll have to upgrade the SM951 at some point, and maybe just shove a big 2TB rust drive on the SATA slot.
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Mar 23, 2017 03:19
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I bought the first SSD of my life today and the dude at the counter sent me off with "Welcome to the NVMe age!". I fit it into the M.2 slot and installed the drivers from Samsung and the Magician, and it tells me it's on a "PCIe Gen 3 x4" slot. Is that the right thing? I'm planning to transfer my boot partition over to it later, but can i encrypt the whole thing before i do that? I heard there's issues with encryption and SSDs or something.
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Mar 23, 2017 19:51
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HenryEx posted:I bought the first SSD of my life today and the dude at the counter sent me off with "Welcome to the NVMe age!". I fit it into the M.2 slot and installed the drivers from Samsung and the Magician, and it tells me it's on a "PCIe Gen 3 x4" slot. Is that the right thing? Yes, thats what you want it to say.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:29
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HenryEx posted:I bought the first SSD of my life today and the dude at the counter sent me off with "Welcome to the NVMe age!". I fit it into the M.2 slot and installed the drivers from Samsung and the Magician, and it tells me it's on a "PCIe Gen 3 x4" slot. Is that the right thing? Windows os? Turn on Bitlocker after you are done moving everything - troubleshooting will be easier.
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Mar 24, 2017 04:15
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Shameless theft from Reddit SSD Thread - N V Me for my speed
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Mar 24, 2017 04:48
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Is that new Seagage 2TB SSHD worth it for a secondary drive, or is it going to suck (because SMR and 8GB NAND) and I should get a standard 2TB PMR drive for the same price?
Lum fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 23:24
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Lum posted:Is that new Seagage 2TB SSHD worth it for a secondary drive, or is it going to suck (because SMR and 8GB NAND) and I should get a standard 2TB PMR drive for the same price? I'm wary that I still haven't found what its spindle speed is other than their bragging that it's 'faster than a 7200rpm HDD.' It doesn't even explicitly say it on the tech sheet.
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Mar 25, 2017 00:05
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I'm wary that I still haven't found what its spindle speed is other than their bragging that it's 'faster than a 7200rpm HDD.' It's 5400. The fact it uses shingled writing worries me more than the spindle speed though. It's going to be used for game installs, and for dumping loads of video files onto when I take the laptop away on trips. It will not contain the OS.
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Mar 25, 2017 00:13
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Lum posted:It's 5400. The fact it uses shingled writing worries me more than the spindle speed though. If it is actually using SMR technology for the platters it's practically useless for when games have to update. Large tracks of data will have to be rewritten if the updates increases file size. It would be fine for video files and music.
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Mar 25, 2017 01:08
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Lum posted:Is that new Seagage 2TB SSHD worth it for a secondary drive, or is it going to suck (because SMR and 8GB NAND) and I should get a standard 2TB PMR drive for the same price? Hybrid drives are crap.
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Mar 27, 2017 16:11
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Yea, I'm finding it difficult to find any use case for such a big hybrid drive for me. Everything I'd need from mass storage like that would be infrequently and randomly accessed anyway, so it wouldn't be even cached to the SSD part of it, or it would be media like music etc where it wouldn't matter. If I had a spinner at all now it would be fast SSD for system / most common apps + cheap reliable non hybrid drive for files.
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Mar 27, 2017 16:18
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Intel released some info on the Optane cache product https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/03/intels-first-optane-ssd-for-regular-pcs-is-a-small-but-has-super-fast-cache/ quote:The Optane Memory drives will be available to order on April 24th. A 16GB drive costs $44 while a 32GB drive costs $77. $44 is well in the "ah gently caress why not" category of random purchases for my computer
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Mar 27, 2017 18:36
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SlayVus posted:If it is actually using SMR technology for the platters it's practically useless for when games have to update. Large tracks of data will have to be rewritten if the updates increases file size. It would be fine for video files and music. This may be nitpicky of me, but it doesn't matter whether a write extends the size of a file here. Any write to a shingle requires a read-modify-write of a larger region, unless the entire region is overwritten in one operation. Shingled drives simply cannot overwrite single sectors in place. That's a characteristic they share with NAND flash, but the costs are much worse as the baseline performance is spinning disk speed instead of NAND speed, and unlike SSDs there is no parallelism (only one head can be actively doing anything - Seagate made some noise about trying to overcome that but I don't think it's been put into any products). There's probably tricks they can use to try to hide shingling to some extent. For example, the Samsung EVO approach: reserve a region of the media that operates in the less-dense-but-faster mode, and use it as a write cache. Long as the data you're writing fits in that cache, the drive can work on moving it to permanent storage in the background. (On a SSHD the NAND could be used as the cache.) Such schemes will always have limitations though, so when you beat on the thing hard enough (such as installing a multi gigabyte update) you'll see the terrible performance sooner or later.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:10
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WhyteRyce posted:Intel released some info on the Optane cache product Except it takes up an M2 slot that would be much better used for another SSD. Does anyone have an example of a consumer application that would actually benefit from Optane's better latency but not better sequential R/W characteristics? After all, Samsung 960s are already fast enough that storage speed is no longer the bottleneck for most applications.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:49
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WhyteRyce posted:Intel released some info on the Optane cache product Sooo, somewhere around / a little under the cost of consumer ram, in loose terms.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:54
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:Except it takes up an M2 slot that would be much better used for another SSD. Uh..........I mean... Persistent web browsing sessions for people with dozens of tabs always open? Browser devs would have to actually do a little work to make it meaningfully helpful.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:58
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:Except it takes up an M2 slot that would be much better used for another SSD. Apparently lots of new computers are still shipped with rotational drives and the apparent NAND shortage makes things worse. And I've got two m.2 slots on my mATX board that also has 2 rotational drives in it, so for $44 why not.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:00
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Anandtech's preview claims these cache drives only utilize two PCIe lanes, and performance is something like 1200MB/sec reads to ~280MB/sec writes, albeit with incredibly low latency. This initial offering just kind of feels like something Intel can sell to OEMs like Dell as a sort of 'spiced snake oil' that'll make their cheap HDD-only desktops feel slightly faster to Joe McLuddite, and the fact that they've been so nebulous about Optane thus far speaks volumes to just how much *they* think it'll be received. Intel's always been kind of a tight-lipped company when it comes to their "next new thing," but in this case it seems like they want to keep everyone's expectations low. And generally OEMs try to get at least a 50-100% profit on anything new/superfluous, so that $599 "Back to School" desktop with the 1TB SSHD becomes $649-729 with Intel's Super Cache. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 21:08
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