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Whenever I play through a combat sequence I never think Lara Croft really kills 20 dudes or whatever, I think maybe in the ~greater narrative~ she only had to fight a couple bad guys and that gameplay element is being extended for the sake of your own entertainment. It's the same way you're supposed to imagine that mountain you just climbed in the game was 3,000m tall and not 300m, or the village you just passed through had a couple hundred people in it instead of 4-5 NPCs who talk to you. We let our imaginations fill in the blanks with all other kinds of gameplay elements, I don't know why combat has to be singled out as the one area where we can't say "video games" and move on.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:59
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exquisite tea posted:Whenever I play through a combat sequence I never think Lara Croft really kills 20 dudes or whatever, I think maybe in the ~greater narrative~ she only had to fight a couple bad guys and that gameplay element is being extended for the sake of your own entertainment. It's the same way you're supposed to imagine that mountain you just climbed in the game was 3,000m tall and not 300m, or the village you just passed through had a couple hundred people in it instead of 4-5 NPCs who talk to you. We let our imaginations fill in the blanks with all other kinds of gameplay elements, I don't know why combat has to be singled out as the one area where we can't say "video games" and move on. Nobody is talking about the realism of Drake fighting 20 guys or whatever.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:03
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I think the argument always comes up because it's hard for both extremes to understand each other. The people that don't think it really gets in the way of anything, don't really get how it can and those that think it does don't see how it can't. It's two sides that had a very different experience arguing that their experience was correct. Honestly the only example of ludonarrative dissonance I remember annoying me was in RDR which had the exact opposite problem as Uncharted in that your character was supposed to be a stone cold killer but in the way the game was structured meant you had to constantly be pushed around and the vast majority of your threats were completely empty. I guess that's also different because it's the narrative not matching up with other parts of the narrative though it can also be looked at in the sense that the game always let's you do what you act like that character, except when the plot can't work if you act like that.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:05
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ImpAtom posted:Nobody is talking about the realism of Drake fighting 20 guys or whatever. You're suggesting that the character of Drake be more connected to killing a lot of people throughout his video game lifetime, but what I'm saying is "in all actuality he probably only really had to kill a few guys." Of course all video games aren't real, but you get the picture.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:07
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I was always uncomfortable with games having me murder lots of people, but then Undertale said murder is bad and I began to cry tears of understanding.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:09
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I like murdering lots of people In videogames I mean haha
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Apr 19, 2017 09:11
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exquisite tea posted:You're suggesting that the character of Drake be more connected to killing a lot of people throughout his video game lifetime, but what I'm saying is "in all actuality he probably only really had to kill a few guys." Of course all video games aren't real, but you get the picture. To use your own example though Tomb Raider, 3 guys or 20, actually has Lara impacted by it. You can freely argue that she gets over it too fast after her first initial killing freakout but even then her character progresses over the course of the game until she is really good at killing and owns it. Uncharted would not actually change significantly if Drake never actually killed anyone except that one stupid time when the villain was like "maybe you're as bad as me????"
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Apr 19, 2017 09:11
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Story based games need to learn pacing.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:13
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ImpAtom posted:Because those games very rarely focus on characters for whom that would be a thing. Persona 5 for example puts all the combat against shadows and when the idea of their actions maybe killing the targets comes up it is a genuinely uncomfortable moment they have to struggle over. FFVII's cast doesn't struggle over killing but they are literally terrorists or ex-soldiers working as mercenaries.A huge number of RPGs only put you up against monsters, wild animals or other creatures who generally have less ethical and moral quandaries around fighting or killing them.' The Witcher 3 has a protagonist who is an explict killer in a lovely world where he has no problem with killing and will admit it. A lot of this stuff is seriously "people don't complain because it makes sense in the context of the plot." Just picking out the FF7 example you made, some of the the main characters are eco-terrorists and they're commiting genocide on wild animals when you level up. Not even all of them are terrorists at all. It is dissonant. It's also OK. Genre X doesn't get a write-off because the Witcher is a murderer or they wondered if killing was ethical for a moment in Persona. You might be a little over-invested in The Case Against Uncharted here to the degree that it's blinding you. bloodychill fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 09:25
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For Uncharted, do feelings about LND just map onto feelings about the exploration/shooting balance? They do in my case. I have always just plain wanted less shooting and more exploration/environmental dangers and I'd want that even if Nate was written as a super-soldier. 4 is my favorite because the balance is more like I want. Eventually Disaster Report 4 will finally come out and I am really looking forward to that, since it's a series about exploration and environmental dangers but without the killing. It's never gotten one hundredth of the budget and refinement as a game like Uncharted though. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 09:37
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah I've seriously seen it so many times. I guess its a lightning rod for it because it works so hard on characterization compared to most games. It's not a very fun conversation because ultimately it goes down the route where we start discussing how the main character is actually a monster sociopath who drinks the blood of mercenary families. He's a crazed murderer who OBVIOUSLY is terrible as a human being, unlike those mercenaries who literally open fire on sight, no you can't say anything is in self-defense because sometimes you're given the option to stealth around breaking necks so Nathan Drake is at least as much of a monster as anyone else. If only he could negotiate with the The solution to these problems can be reduced to making Uncharted less like Uncharted. Less shooting, less bad guys, and more walking and climbing (which also gets complained about if the discussion lasts long enough). I'll be curious to see if Nadine and Chloe get painted in the same light as Drake often does in these discussions, come the UC4 expansion. glam rock hamhock posted:Red Dead Redemption Literally the only reason why RDR gets a pass for the player being allowed (and expected) to be far more cruel to the world around them is because we get cutscenes that tell us good ol' Mr. Marston is actually tortured about it, with some nice sad guitar music in the background while we amble through a lifeless plain to Mexico *gun fire erupts anywhere within fifty yards of John and he screams himself hoarse with threats of immediate death and mayhem to all hostiles regardless of their former status with him* Why yes he'll politely rustle up those cattle, ma'am *ties a woman to train tracks for a cheevo* "I... I did bad things... I'm tryin' to be better" *sick nasty bullet-time multi kill after slamming down some moonshine* exquisite tea posted:You're suggesting that the character of Drake be more connected to killing a lot of people throughout his video game lifetime, but what I'm saying is "in all actuality he probably only really had to kill a few guys." Of course all video games aren't real, but you get the picture. Eh, Drake kills thousands of people who are out to kill him, and his wife even took part in this indiscriminate mass murder of generic eastern europeans/middle easterners, but they still go on to have normal lives. Hilariously, she writes travel blogs, which I guess ties into her globetrotting kill-anything-between-me-and-my(at one point)-future-husband experience. Nathan's day job is salvage diver/professional wise cracker. And that's okay. fivegears4reverse fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 09:39
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It's great that many games are now exploring means other than violence to advance the narrative, but if the combat loop itself is entertaining, I'm happy to mow down 50 bad guys and then say to myself "eh I probably only killed like 3 back there." Conversely games like the Witcher 3 could have used a lot less combat since it kinda blows.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:40
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bloodychill posted:Just picking out the FF7 example you made, some of the the main characters are eco-terrorists and they're commiting genocide on wild animals when you level up. Not even all of them are terrorists at all. It is dissonant. It's also OK. Genre X doesn't get a write-off because the Witcher is a murderer or they wondered if killing was ethical for a moment in Persona. You might be a little over-invested in The Case Against Uncharted here to the degree that it's blinding you. Did you just frantically rush to post what you thought was some kind of super ice burn or something without thinking about it? The cast of FFVII is comprised of a mercenary ex-soldier, two eco-terrorists, a girl who lives in the slums and explicitly mentions having had to fight before and being used to it, the guardian of a village, the scion of a ninja village, an ex-secret agent who was turned into a monster, a robot run by a member of an evil corporation and an ex-pilot who used to work for the evil corporation. All of them have actual canonical explanations for being used to fighting monsters and not considering it a big deal and the story doesn't dwell on it because the story is already dwelling on their actions. It's also not the Best Written Story Of All Time and has plenty of poo poo you can criticize, including the fact that it could dwell more on certain things. It actually has a lot of flaws and could be much better written and deal with subjects it evokes with a lot more maturity. But you didn't say that, you just dropped a poorly considered "You kill a lot of monsters in RPGs, why doesn't anyone every talk about that?!" comment despite the fact it has actually nothing to do with the discussion. The discussion about Uncharted or Watch_Dogs 2 or whatever isn't just "you kill a lot of people... in video games?!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 09:41
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Final Fantasy quality is more based on the depth of the combat system and not the story. The FF7 remake would be much better if it had Bravely Default's battle mechanics so I could heavily customise my character and skip any combat I wanted to avoid. Also lol at RDR "getting a pass."
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Apr 19, 2017 09:44
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was i dreaming when i thought the ps4 could connect to BT headsets? I could've sworn i did that, but i just tried with one and it said bt audio was not supported. Hell, the ps4 sees the thing just fine and even puts a headset icon next to it in the bt device menu, but doesn't actually connect. Is that just sony being a nickel-dimey rear end?
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Apr 19, 2017 09:59
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Watermelon Daiquiri posted:was i dreaming when i thought the ps4 could connect to BT headsets? I could've sworn i did that, but i just tried with one and it said bt audio was not supported. Hell, the ps4 sees the thing just fine and even puts a headset icon next to it in the bt device menu, but doesn't actually connect. Is that just sony being a nickel-dimey rear end? Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 10:02
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ImpAtom posted:Did you just frantically rush to post what you thought was some kind of super ice burn or something without thinking about it? It wasn't some sick burn. It's the same poo poo, different day. Eco-terrorists mass-killing animals, swash-buckling RPG heroes saving worlds while killing anyone who dares to stop them because saving the world is more important than the life of some gang flunky or merc. 5gears basically nailed it. This discussion has gotten stale and people bitch even considering how the game would play with the combat taken out or all the bullets replaced with stun darts or something. It's dissonant, I'm killing all the mercs and wiping out the video game world population of mu's and wild boars, I'm ok with it.
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Apr 19, 2017 10:20
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I wish Uncharted 4's combat segments utilised the grappling hook more often. Swinging around an arena, dropkicking and shooting people in the air was the best part of that game. A few too many gunfight sections took place on one floor comprised of nothing but chest-high cover. The game allowed for way more maneuverability than that. FauxLeather fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 10:25
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FauxLeather posted:I wish Uncharted 4's combat segments utilised the grappling hook more often. Swinging around an arena, dropkicking and shooting people in the air was the best part of that game.
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Apr 19, 2017 10:29
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FauxLeather posted:I wish Uncharted 4's combat segments utilised the grappling hook more often. Swinging around an arena, dropkicking and shooting people in the air was the best part of that game. Agreed, and honestly it needed more combat overall. The shootouts UC4 had were some of the best in the series, and I think it also helped that the firefights felt considerable more kinetic. People reacted and ragdolled in satisfying ways to the different weapons, and when you were given big arenas to fight through there was a good amount of verticality. You also felt quite beastly in melee range, which I appreciated. The DLC trailer gives me hope that Chloe's gameplay will maintain a familiar feel, but I also hope we get to play as Nadine. Nadine, the super competent merc boss who CLOWNED Nathan and Sam. Basically, have Chloe be the brawler we've come to expect after years of playing as Drake. Let Nadine be the scary, trained martial artist that employs counters to great effect AND has the sort of power she showed off when kicking Drake around in Italy.
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Apr 19, 2017 10:33
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'Ludonarrative Dissonance' is not a pejorative, just like 'cognitive dissonance' is not a pejorative, just like 'narrative ambiguity' is not a pejorative, just like 'rainy spring day' is not a pejorative.
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Apr 19, 2017 10:47
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Oh hey, watch_dogs 2's patch added a non-lethal paintball assault rifle and airblast shotgun.
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Apr 19, 2017 10:54
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can we talk about fantasy racism? that's my favorite subject. it's hosed up how everyone keeps killing these goblins. thoughts?
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Apr 19, 2017 11:14
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poptart_fairy posted:Oh hey, watch_dogs 2's patch added a non-lethal paintball assault rifle and airblast shotgun. Attitude Indicator posted:can we talk about fantasy racism? that's my favorite subject. FauxLeather fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 11:14
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Hey man, sometimes you got to jack the physical connection between concrete and brain matter. 
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Apr 19, 2017 11:15
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Attitude Indicator posted:can we talk about fantasy racism? that's my favorite subject.
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Apr 19, 2017 11:17
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Orcs are literally black people in LotR
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Apr 19, 2017 11:22
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Are you forgetting about 'the black men from the south?'
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Apr 19, 2017 11:23
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Popped in Persona 5 and it's really good. I know how my weekend is going to be spent
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Apr 19, 2017 11:26
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Are you forgetting about 'the black men from the south?' Probably
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Apr 19, 2017 11:51
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I would not have lasted half a game with the Uncharted series if i hadn't turned the difficulty dial to zero and punched every nameless mook in the chops.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:13
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I never got how Uncharted became Sony's flagship series. It seems like bad discount Indiana Jones.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:24
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They are cool and good games, when played the right way, which also have broad appeal. Also he is a white American dude. Every box ticked in one swoop.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:31
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They're easy to play and look nice and you get to shoot and punch stuff and Nate cracks wise and there's usually a hot sassy lady, that's pretty much it.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:33
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Uncharted 1 is the film Commando but with slightly more plot and without aimbot. That said, I love those games because Sully is the poo poo.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:36
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Oh yeah I forgot about Sully. They also have Sully in them.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:39
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Drake and Elena had a really cute rapport in 4, that scene where they play the PS1 and ate pasta had me smiling from cheek to cheek. I liked Sam a lot too.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:56
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Is there actually any difference in the new DS4s other than being able to see what colour the light is?
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Apr 19, 2017 14:35
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Sakurazuka posted:Is there actually any difference in the new DS4s other than being able to see what colour the light is? Speaking of this, I've always wondered why controllers can have so low latency compared to any Bluetooth audio. Which part of the Bluetooth process for audio causes it? Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 14:37
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My biggest example of dissonance that kind of bothers me is Kat suddenly fighting humans in Gravity Rush 2. I have a hard time imagining her being OK with literally throwing hundreds of people to their deaths or crushing them with heavy objects. She gets upset if enemy soldiers are killed by monsters even! Then again, in both games it's pretty much impossible to not accidentally murder civilians since they tend to get caught in your antigravitational field and get flung hundreds of feet into the air. I suppose I could mentally imagine her doing a Batman and saving every person she flings into the distance...
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