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Saagonsa posted:I honestly don't know how I passed that panel despite rereading that scene like 5 times. Thanks.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:01
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:Yeah, I think the idea that both sides are villainous here is not really a reasonable one. No matter what wrongs Eldia committed in the past - even if they were just as bad as Marley says - we know that in present day the Eldian people are blameless, and the only evil here is the Marleyian government. As recently as Chapter 90, from the mouth of the protagonist:  No, no I'm still quite certain this is will be a War of Extermination, and all the characters know it.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:22
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I mean, Marley is presumably never going to stop attacking the people inside the Wall because they want the coordinate power. The Eldians in the Wall really don't have much of a chance, I'd think, given how Marley treats its own Eldians.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:26
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Hate-Senpai posted:I mean, Marley is presumably never going to stop attacking the people inside the Wall because they want the coordinate power. Except the main character isn't saying push back and sue for peace, he's saying they have to genocide the Marley before the Marley genocide them. A pox on both their houses.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:30
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Kerning Chameleon posted:No, no I'm still quite certain this is will be a War of Extermination, and all the characters know it. Given that two major accomplishments of our heroes so far have been tearing down a totalitarian regime and establishing free press/educating the populous I am pretty certain that they will, in fact, not be go on to commit genocide. Kerning Chameleon posted:Except the main character isn't saying push back and sue for peace, he's saying they have to genocide the Marley before the Marley genocide them. He is not saying they need to genocide the Marley people, and pushing back and suing for peace is the wrong approach to take with an enemy that wants to eliminate you. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 04:48
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Schwarzwald posted:Given that two major accomplishments of our heroes so far have been tearing down a totalitarian regime and establishing free press/educating the populous I am pretty certain that they will, in fact, not be go on to commit genocide. Yes, replacing a totalitarian monarchy with a torture-loving, extremely nationalistic military juanta is totally a move in the right direction. And the free press has never been used to rile up populaces into demonizing an entire ethnic group of people and marching into total war against them. Eren is the exact same REVENGEANCE KILL EM ALL fucker he's always been, he's just done a mental find-and-replace of "Titans" with "Marley", and added "made us kill our own brethren" to the list of The Enemy's Unforgivable Crimes he's been keeping.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:00
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Schwarzwald posted:
Yeah I agree. The Eldians were in self-imposed exile before Marley decided to murder or subjugate them all. (There is no way a single free eldian would be left after they seized the coordinate, they are either potential weapons or future enemies so that is going to seal their fate). They are pretty much fighting for their right to exist. Like without a doubt, the past eldians were just as bad as the Marleys, but the current Eldians are clearly victims who did not ask for any of this. It's understandable that they wouldn't think of peace as an option because what has Marley done that indicates that peace between them is even a remote possibility? Like maybe they could get to a peace agreement eventually, but it's understandable that Eren and co would think that's impossible. The only way "both sides" are equally bad works here is if you hold all the Eldian citizens responsible for the crimes of their ancestors. If you don't then they aren't facing the same situation at all.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:03
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JuniperCake posted:Yeah I agree. The Eldians were in self-imposed exile before Marley decided to murder or subjugate them all. (There is no way a single free eldian would be left after they seized the coordinate, they are either potential weapons or future enemies so that is going to seal their fate). They are pretty much fighting for their right to exist. I mean, yes, absolutely? They kind of got off scott-free from their ancestors' poo poo a century ago, mind-wiped themselve so they wouldn't feel that guilt, and now it's come home to roost? And I'm supposed to sympathize with that poo poo?! Yeah, absolutely gently caress all Eldians past, present, and future. Just gently caress all the Marley, too.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:14
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Yes, replacing a totalitarian monarchy with a torture-loving, extremely nationalistic military juanta is totally a move in the right direction. And the free press has never been used to rile up populaces into demonizing an entire ethnic group of people and marching into total war against them. Replacing a government willing to starve to death large percentages of it's population to sustain it's power with a government that actually cares for the well being of it's people (and has shown itself capable of caring for them) is a good thing. The new government has not shown itself to be more torture-loving than the one it's replaced, and by revealing the truth of the titans and the existence of nations and peoples it has already proven itself to be significantly less nationalistic. In addition, I think the free press is a good thing, but that's just my opinion. As for Eren, he is not the same "REVENGEANCE KILL EM ALL fucker he's always been." As evidence, consider this panel: Just look at his expression, or the hesitation in his words. He's completely exhausted, and forlorn that the fighting is not yet over.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:23
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I mean, yes, absolutely? They kind of got off scott-free from their ancestors' poo poo a century ago, mind-wiped themselve so they wouldn't feel that guilt, and now it's come home to roost? And I'm supposed to sympathize with that poo poo?! Yeah, absolutely gently caress all Eldians past, present, and future. They're kept in ghettos and are murdered at the whim of Marleyians. They didn't get off scot-free. (This is assuming that the Eldians even truly were as bad as Marley says. I don't doubt that horrible things happened on both sides in the war between them, but given that the only side we've seen committing atrocities in the present day is Marley, I'm not sure we can really take them at their word.)
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Apr 20, 2017 05:28
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I mean, yes, absolutely? They kind of got off scott-free from their ancestors' poo poo a century ago, mind-wiped themselve so they wouldn't feel that guilt, and now it's come home to roost? And I'm supposed to sympathize with that poo poo?! Yeah, absolutely gently caress all Eldians past, present, and future. Genocide is bad. I realize this is kind of a hot take, quite like my earlier hot take: "free press is good."
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Apr 20, 2017 05:29
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I mean, yes, absolutely? They kind of got off scott-free from their ancestors' poo poo a century ago, mind-wiped themselve so they wouldn't feel that guilt, and now it's come home to roost? And I'm supposed to sympathize with that poo poo?! Yeah, absolutely gently caress all Eldians past, present, and future. Do you also hate all german people?
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Apr 20, 2017 05:30
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I mean, yes, absolutely? They kind of got off scott-free from their ancestors' poo poo a century ago, mind-wiped themselve so they wouldn't feel that guilt, and now it's come home to roost? And I'm supposed to sympathize with that poo poo?! Yeah, absolutely gently caress all Eldians past, present, and future. I mean first off it's still very unlcear what exactly actually happened with the past with Eldians and Marleys. Like, Grisha's understanding of what went on in the past is very obviously wrong, but there's really no reason to believe everything that the Marley government says about the Eldians are true. Secondly, why are the current Eldians responsible for the sins of their ancestors? There very obviously aren't any systems in place where they're benefiting from past persecution of the Marleys. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Saagonsa fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 05:31
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Saagonsa posted:I mean first off it's still very unlcear what exactly actually happened with the past with Eldians and Marleys. Like, Grisha's understanding of what went on in the past is very obviously wrong, but there's really no reason to believe everything that the Marley government says about the Eldians are true. They abandoned their kin in Marley territory to Wall themselves up on a literal goddamn island to save their own hides, and proceeded to live a century in blissful, ignorant relative peace while the Marley ran roughshod over the rest of the earth with the titan toys they left lying around. They only started to care when the Marley broke that sweet little gig up. In the current setting, they're not just talking about protecting themselves from Marley invasion, they're basically using the loving Fourteen Words to justify what they're about to do the Marley, and probably any of these other factions that get in their way like the Middle Eastern Coalition. There is no difference between the Marley and the Eldians in my eyes, other than one group can turn into literal giant human-eating monsters.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:43
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Nobody, and I mean nobody likes it when you point out the elephant in the room re: Isayama's politics, but you have to admit the Eldia situation looks very much like a broad strokes take on post-war Japan guilt for Imperial Japan's past crimes. Marley obviously isn't a perfect match for China but it doesn't have to be, the fact that it's written to be a mainland military superpower with a history of horrific violence, both given and received, with the isolationist Eldians is clear. The Survey Corps-led coup in retrospect strongly resembles a metaphorical "taking back" of power from an (irredeemably corrupt, villified, and easily detestable) anti-war government and placing the power in the hands of the people presented as being more responsible and capable of action--in this case, a literal military junta. The world situation is written to be that the Eldian war hawks are absolutely correct, they are facing an existential threat from an extremely aggressive mainland superpower with every intent of subjugating and exterminating them. (This of course lines up with many right-wing fears about China, in many countries.) That is not to say the Eldians are morally correct outside of this context. It just means that the story is explicitly written to justify their position. They are absolutely justified because the writer intends for them to be justified, this is a fundamental device for writing polemic fiction. As a more extreme example, in the Warhammer 40K IP, the genocidal fascist Space Catholics are absolutely correct both morally and logically in-universe because the universe they exist in was explicitly written to justify them being genocidal fascists (since the writers long ago forgot it was supposed to be a satire). This not-coincidentally gives the IP a large amount of appeal to customers who might share these genocidal and fascist attitudes. Now, exactly where Isayama takes things depends on his real political beliefs and he hasn't openly shared them, yet. But right-wing writers aren't anything new (and in the manga, anime, and light novel industries are probably the majority) and hell, even the author of High School of the Dead couldn't resist taking potshots at Japanese left-wing strawmen. That said, there's room for the "to you one thousand years from now" framing device to be used to examine the follies of the Eldian warhawks the story is currently following and, indeed, the follies of humanity at war in general. But I don't know if that's what the audience wants. As has been obvious from the start, they want blood.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:52
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The King, who is no longer in charge ran away, considering they can mind control regular Eldian's there isn't any reason to think the people on the island are complicit.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:52
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I think we can take them at their word that the Eldians were bad because their ruling class at least had incredibly unmatched power and there is no way they were saints about it. That is just not something that happens unfortunately and Grisha's talk with the owl pretty much confirms it. But Kerning, one thing I think you are missing is we are talking about authoritarian governments where individual people have little power. Add in a king that can literally control your memories and it's even worse. How much responsibility do you think some random baker or a farmer and his kids has in all of this? Especially many generations after. Do they deserve to die even though they likely had no power to influence what happened? Like you are advocating that all these people should be ethnically cleansed without exception here and you are taking issue with people resorting to genocide to try to solve problems. Do you not see the hypocrisy with that? Mind you talking about the people not so much the governments. Both governments are absolutely lovely and do appalling things. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 05:55
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JuniperCake posted:I think we can take them in their world that the Eldians were bad because their ruling class at least had incredibly unmatched power and there is no way they were saints about it. That is just not something that happens unfortunately and Grisha's talk with the owl pretty much confirms it. No, I''m railing against one side wiping out the other. I want both sides to die in a MAD-type situation for this, with the bonus such a scenario would be entirely of their own making. And even if you get away with the whole "innocent" excuse before the coup, you absolutely cannot after. Any choice the Eldian Wall people accept now is one hundred percent on their heads.... and I strongly suspect they'll not choose to be merciful or gracious.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:03
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Kerning Chameleon posted:They abandoned their kin in Marley territory to Wall themselves up on a literal goddamn island to save their own hides, and proceeded to live a century in blissful, ignorant relative peace while the Marley ran roughshod over the rest of the earth with the titan toys they left lying around. They only started to care when the Marley broke that sweet little gig up. In the current setting, they're not just talking about protecting themselves from Marley invasion, they're basically using the loving Fourteen Words to justify what they're about to do the Marley, and probably any of these other factions that get in their way like the Middle Eastern Coalition. They did not wall themselves up, they were enslaved. They did not only now start to care, the government repeatedly cracked down on citizens who learned (or sought to learn) too much. They are not using the Fourteen loving Words to justify "what they're about to do the Marley," they are defending themselves from a nation that has shown itself willing to wipe them out and has taken steps toward doing so. And even if the manga supported your position, which it does not, it would still be wrong to genocide the Eldian people. Genocide is bad.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:08
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Kerning Chameleon posted:They abandoned their kin in Marley territory to Wall themselves up on a literal goddamn island to save their own hides, and proceeded to live a century in blissful, ignorant relative peace while the Marley ran roughshod over the rest of the earth with the titan toys they left lying around. They only started to care when the Marley broke that sweet little gig up. In the current setting, they're not just talking about protecting themselves from Marley invasion, they're basically using the loving Fourteen Words to justify what they're about to do the Marley, and probably any of these other factions that get in their way like the Middle Eastern Coalition. We know the king did. But you are still going on about sins of the father. The walls were put up a 100 years ago and the population was mind wiped. None of the people that actually did any of this stuff is still around.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:08
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I don't get the hate for the people inside the wall. I mean, they were driven there and are going to be murdered by the Marley. They have every right to fight back and utterly destroy the Marley until they are no longer a threat.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:09
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Xarbala posted:Nobody, and I mean nobody likes it when you point out the elephant in the room re: Isayama's politics, but you have to admit the Eldia situation looks very much like a broad strokes take on post-war Japan guilt for Imperial Japan's past crimes. Marley obviously isn't a perfect match for China but it doesn't have to be, the fact that it's written to be a mainland military superpower with a history of horrific violence, both given and received, with the isolationist Eldians is clear. The Survey Corps-led coup in retrospect strongly resembles a metaphorical "taking back" of power from an (irredeemably corrupt, villified, and easily detestable) anti-war government and placing the power in the hands of the people presented as being more responsible and capable of action--in this case, a literal military junta. The world situation is written to be that the Eldian war hawks are absolutely correct, they are facing an existential threat from an extremely aggressive mainland superpower with every intent of subjugating and exterminating them. (This of course lines up with many right-wing fears about China, in many countries.) That is not to say the Eldians are morally correct outside of this context. It just means that the story is explicitly written to justify their position. They are absolutely justified because the writer intends for them to be justified, this is a fundamental device for writing polemic fiction. The original "Isayama is a fascist" critique was that the Titans were stand-ins for the dirty foreign hordes and the series was a call for political unity to instill racial and cultural purity. Then it turned out Titans were not only the same race as the protagonists, but just as much victims as the people they killed, so it seems a bit unfair to seize on a newly introduced element and go "now this is the real militaristic right wing message the mangaka was always getting at". GhostofJohnMuir fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 06:11
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Schwarzwald posted:They did not wall themselves up, they were enslaved. They did not only now start to care, the government repeatedly cracked down on citizens who learned (or sought to learn) too much. They are not using the Fourteen loving Words to justify "what they're about to do the Marley," they are defending themselves from a nation that has shown itself willing to wipe them out and has taken steps toward doing so. Genocide is bad, I agree. However, the manga (and this very discussion) has proven no other solution is apparently viable, so we might as well root for the genocide that removes the biggest number of vile fuckers possible, which is Double Knockout.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:14
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I wonder if they could just agree to let Marley mine for oil or whatever all they want on the island in exchange for a truce. They really hate Eldians but it's not like they'd want to fight a pointless war right?
RatHat fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 06:17
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Genocide is bad, I agree. However, the manga (and this very discussion) has proven no other solution is apparently viable It hasn't
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Apr 20, 2017 06:17
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:The original "Isayama is a fascist" critique was that the Titans were stand-ins for the dirty foreign hordes and the series was a call for political unity to instill racial and cultural purity. Then it turned out Titans were not only the same race as the protagonists, but just as much victims as the people they killed, so it seems a bit unfair to seize on a newly introduced element and go "now this is the real militaristic right wing message the managaka was always getting at". Thing is, I didn't really agree with the original "Isayama is a fascist" argument because it was so weak. And the fact that it was such a strong and divisive take on a person's politics based solely on an incomplete work. I don't think Isayama is necessarily a fascist but I do believe he has sensibilities aligning with the Japanese right-wing. It's also shown repeatedly that various characters express doubts about their place in the world and the actions they feel they are being forced, by extreme circumstances, to take so he's obviously thoughtful about the matter in a very human way and not some political zealot. Even Kill'Em All Eren couches his "Kill the Marleyans" supposition as a question and not an answer. So it's entirely possible this is all leading up to something less absolute and more nuanced.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:18
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RatHat posted:If Eren, Armin, and Annie just blew themselves up to get rid of the founder titan forever would Marley even care about the island anymore? Assuming Marley believes them of course. They want the island for natural resources, so yeah they'd probably wipe out the people living on it anyways.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:19
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Genocide is bad, I agree. However, the manga (and this very discussion) has proven no other solution is apparently viable, so we might as well root for the genocide that removes the biggest number of vile fuckers possible, which is Double Knockout. Yeah, the manga that has the bloodthirsty rage protagonist sadly, tiredly, pointing out across the water and saying "So all of these people are our enemies, we have to kill them all before we're safe?" is definitely going to end with them killing everyone else so they can be safe.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:21
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GodFish posted:Yeah, the manga that has the bloodthirsty rage protagonist sadly, tiredly, pointing out across the water and saying "So all of these people are our enemies, we have to kill them all before we're safe?" is definitely going to end with them killing everyone else so they can be safe. Yeah, that's my bet. No worries, he'll pull an Ender Wiggen and feel reeeeeeeally guilty about it, you guys, so it'll be fine!
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Apr 20, 2017 06:23
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Yeah, that's my bet. Now that's just a low blow
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Apr 20, 2017 06:25
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Yeah, that's my bet. I mean, if you actually think that, okay, and we'll see. But that seems like a really weird reading to me.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:28
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Genocide is bad, I agree. However, the manga (and this very discussion) has proven no other solution is apparently viable, so we might as well root for the genocide that removes the biggest number of vile fuckers possible, which is Double Knockout. The manga and this discussion has not proven such a thing. In fact, the manga is still on going and the characters in it are longing for and struggling toward an end to conflict. Genocide is bad, and furthermore, it is wrong to root for it. Kerning Chameleon posted:Yeah, that's my bet. Stay away from casinos.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:29
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I'm rooting for the genocide that results in the largest number of titan vs titan wrestling matches put to paper.
tweet my meat fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 07:42
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Kerning Chameleon posted:As recently as Chapter 90, from the mouth of the protagonist: I very much doubt this story is going to end with a side exterminating the other. Even the good side exterminating the other one. The series has made specific reference to how hard the cycle of violence and vengeance can be to be broken, and if it's aiming for a good end, it will finish with peace between both sides.
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Apr 20, 2017 09:46
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I love it when a dead thread suddenly gets 50 new posts cause it makes me excited and I think:"Ooh, look at that activity! The new chapter should be out!", and then I come here and see people making disingenuous arguments and it makes me regret ever bookmarking this thread.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:31
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I Love Annie May posted:I love it when a dead thread suddenly gets 50 new posts cause it makes me excited and I think:"Ooh, look at that activity! The new chapter should be out!", and then I come here and see people making disingenuous arguments and it makes me regret ever bookmarking this thread. And it's like 15 people responding to That One Dude, too.
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Apr 20, 2017 14:39
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Kerning Chameleon posted:I mean, yes, absolutely? They kind of got off scott-free from their ancestors' poo poo a century ago, mind-wiped themselve so they wouldn't feel that guilt, and now it's come home to roost? And I'm supposed to sympathize with that poo poo?! Yeah, absolutely gently caress all Eldians past, present, and future. Dude you just eliminated all mankind, my ancestors did some pretty atrocious poo poo.
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Apr 20, 2017 23:35
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The new poster's a loving retard protip
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Apr 21, 2017 02:28
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Saagonsa posted:Yeah, they skipped the banter between Ymir and Reiner and the reveal that Ymir could read the unknown language on the can. They might include that in a future episode? Would be weird to show Reiner being shocked that Ymir could read it, but not the rest of the scene. They didn't show any discussion about the can. It's just him staring at a it saying "Ymir....you..." and then she glares at him, and then the sentry screams that the titans are attacking. I would really hope they're going to include this as a flashback next week, since they skipped everything from them getting into the castle to that moment. They skip the pompadour guy finding booze and mentioning how it must be a smuggler hideout, they skip Connie bringing up the titan looking like his mom only for Ymir to start taunting him to try and make him drop the subject, and of course they skip the part where Ymir and Reiner both shoot each other ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) looks and acknowledge that they're gay. It seems weird to need to cut things in episode three of a new season, and what sane anime studio would cut shipping-related materials, which is the lifeblood of many a series, this one included.
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Apr 21, 2017 06:52
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I wonder how far they intend to get on a shorter season 25 episodes covered what like, 33 chapters right? Is this gonna be another 15 chapters? That'd end it right around the Eren/Reiner brawl I think?
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Apr 21, 2017 07:02
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