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Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
Digimon Adventure, episode 37, Angemon's Holy Knuckle defeats Phantomon, an Undead Digimon, and injures Vamdemon, who is also an Undead Digimon - all classifications the series overwhelmingly puts in the "evil" category.

Digimon Adventure, episode 49, a combined attack from Angemon, Birdramon, and Angewomon, fails to kill WaruMonzaemon, who is associated with Machine digimon.

No, no, clearly the idea that Angemon isn't stronger against all the other other Digimon in the cast while only being an Adult, and he instead has some unique property to his attacks that affects only a certain kind of opponent is purely the invention of Adventure 02 and has no basis at all how he's portrayed in Adventure.

Totally a retcon and on the same level of Leia kissing a man eventually revealed to be her brother on the level of sloppy writing decisions.

Kurui Reiten posted:

No, I don't think it should be, because all I'm doing is explaining to you why people think like that. If people wanted to examine the show completely logically, they would, but those of us into stuff like Digimon are generally here because we saw it when we were kids, and we're here because we have fond memories of it. This is not the newest, hottest anime, or something. This is a legacy series, and those of us here are more or less legacy fans. We could all rewatch the series annually to keep it fresh in our minds, and only have very reasoned and logical debates about whether or not the 02 cast was more technically proficient than the Adventure cast, but for most of us we just see it as a fun show we liked as kids that, honestly, we are way too still attached to. We're all manchildren and womanchildren here, and that means we don't give a poo poo about how reasoned an argument is about how Gatomon wasn't as good as we remember, she got to bop Greymon on the head and had a cool wizard friend who died for her and was an anti-hero who got to be redeemed and shoot a big magic arrow at the bad guy and kill him, and as a kid, that was cool as poo poo.

That makes sense to a degree, but when it comes up in the discussion, why is pointing out what was actually going on seen as a bad thing? I think that's ultimately where we're failing to see eye to eye on. That's arguably what the writers are basing their decisions on, not fandom perceptions and myopia, which are incredibly hard to gauge, especially when you've got a fluctuating staff writing two shows more or less back to back well in advance of becoming aware of much of that.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 08:35 on May 1, 2017

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Kurui Reiten
Apr 24, 2010

TFRazorsaw posted:

Digimon Adventure, episode 49, a combined attack from Angemon, Birdramon, and Angewomon, fails to kill WaruMonzaemon, who is associated with Machine digimon.

Let's be honest, that was kind of bullshit no matter how you slice it. Angewomon is an Ultimate, and there's two high powered Champions pitching in there too. That should probably had killed the poo poo out of him. That's just bad writing.

quote:

That makes sense to a degree, but when it comes up in the discussion, why is pointing out what was actually going on seen as a bad thing? I think that's ultimately where we're failing to see eye to eye on.

Basically, it's because you keep feeling the need to explain "no, this is what really happened". People understand that, yeah, her showings weren't as good later, and that yeah, the series later justified why she couldn't be allowed to just put the ring back on. However, for the former, people were more effected by her earlier showings, and for the latter, it really did feel like a cheap way to nerf her and keep her nerfed, as opposed to something that happened naturally. It actually does fit with the Leia thing pretty well: it exists to explain something that the writers wanted to happen, without explicitly contradicting anything. Neither felt natural, however, despite not being contradictory, and both were kind of disconcerting. The Leia thing has the advantage of thirty some years of space from the next time it mattered, but it still rubs quite a few people the wrong way.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool

Kurui Reiten posted:

Let's be honest, that was kind of bullshit no matter how you slice it. Angewomon is an Ultimate, and there's two high powered Champions pitching in there too. That should probably had killed the poo poo out of him. That's just bad writing.

At the very least, it lends towards the notion that the fandom's perception of Angemon wasn't neccessarily concurrent with the writers' even back during Adventure.

quote:

Basically, it's because you keep feeling the need to explain "no, this is what really happened". People understand that, yeah, her showings weren't as good later, and that yeah, the series later justified why she couldn't be allowed to just put the ring back on. However, for the former, people were more effected by her earlier showings, and for the latter, it really did feel like a cheap way to nerf her and keep her nerfed, as opposed to something that happened naturally. It actually does fit with the Leia thing pretty well: it exists to explain something that the writers wanted to happen, without explicitly contradicting anything. Neither felt natural, however, despite not being contradictory, and both were kind of disconcerting. The Leia thing has the advantage of thirty some years of space from the next time it mattered, but it still rubs quite a few people the wrong way.

It felt less like people understood that about her role in the first series and more like they were making excuses for it. If people were more willing to call it bad writing like you did the thing above, or admit Adventure doesn't really treat Hikari or Tailmon that well, despite the initial promise they showed (she's the main character of the movie that launched this drat thing for crying out loud), it'd be one thing. But no, they went on with stuff like "no, they were just focusing on higher evolved forms"... while ignoring that there were still plenty of chances to let them actually be effective. And again, the only real standout fight Angewomon gets after killing Vamdemon is against LadyDevimon; it renders excuses like that kind of moot. Meanwhile, on the other side of the debate - I love Jou's character, but he's an arguably less narratively significant character than Hikari, and Zudomon gets to beat up MetalEtemon. Why does that happen and Tailmon can't even punch a few minions?

Even the Angemon and Tailmon and power level poo poo is really kind of small potatoes to the narrative issues you can find in both series, there's also issues with how effective Mimi is allowed to be, and the whole Yamato/Sora and Taichi/Sora thing is treated as a bigger issue of 02 stomping on something Adventure supported instead of both shows treating Sora as a prop for Yamato and Taichi's respective development.

And that's really what it comes down to. Adventure is the show, the sterling example, and not something that makes mistakes, or contradicts what fandom believes to be true. There's not just stuff about power levels, it's the notion that 02 is the only part of the two part series that does anything wrong and Adventure is the gold standard. I will admit that I have my own laundry list of complaints about 02 as well (V-mon has no personality, the pacing is bad), but there's this ongoing narrative that pits 02 not necessarily against Adventure, but people's idealized vision of it. Leia and Luke were a thing that Lucas seemed to actually want to have happen at one point before changing his mind - the perception of characters like Angemon feels a lot less clear cut.

I'm not saying 02 is even necessarily a good show. And I understand why these feelings took root with people. But it's over 16 years later and I think enough time has passed for people to look at both shows differently in the same way that DBZ fans do where they realize power levels were bullshit and a lot of the "rules" they thought were set in stone actually aren't there.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 09:07 on May 1, 2017

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
This is exactly the amount of :spergin: I was expecting from a Digimon thread in the year of our lord 2017.

Someone please help me, I just caught up on Tri and I'm drowning in nostalgia. :negative:

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

TFRazorsaw posted:

I'm not saying 02 is even necessarily a good show. And I understand why these feelings took root with people. But it's over 16 years later and I think enough time has passed for people to look at both shows differently in the same way that DBZ fans do where they realize power levels were bullshit and a lot of the "rules" they thought were set in stone actually aren't there.

Okay look, and you know I agree with you on DBZ power level bullshit, but you know drat well that there is a very loud part of the DBZ fan base that still believes quite feverishly in power levels. This is a terrible analogy for you to bring up.

Especially in light of the bitching about Super.

The other stuff I'm not touching. I'm just letting it run free without me this time.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014
Unfortunately, Adventure is like Generation One of Transformers in that people treat it as the definitive series for Digimon despite glaring writing flaws.

The difference though is that, while geewunnerism is a thing (and in fact the term geewunner itself comes from Transformers), Transformers fans are more willing to admit G1's flaws while Hasbro is more open to fully incorporate elements from later series into the greater lore, the most famous example being the concept of the Spark and Protoforms which were both introduced in Beast Wars and have been a staple in the franchise ever since, while Digimon's fanbase and Bandai continue to struggle with both of these.

Chimera-gui fucked around with this message at 15:01 on May 1, 2017

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

This kind of stuff is what makes me glad they decided to abandon any sense of continuity between shows after 02 (aside from Tri that is). If every series is its own seperate universe that makes discrepancies like these a lot less glaring.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

Larryb posted:

This kind of stuff is what makes me glad they decided to abandon any sense of continuity between shows after 02 (aside from Tri that is). If every series is its own seperate universe that makes discrepancies like these a lot less glaring.

In general, Digimon's the kind of show that works terribly with sequels. Due to having established power levels for most of the shows, adding a sequel just adds the obvious problem of how to make the new cast not feel useless in comparison to the old cast that's several levels higher. And then you end up with stuff like 02, where both a plot device (Dark Towers) and a plothole (Crests are lost) are needed to make the new team actually useful. And then their gimmick has to change once the series wants to move past that, and it's just a mess.

Tri is only slightly better, considering how it made everyone act like idiots instead (oh hey there's a very dangerous Digimon let's go Adult, no not Perfect, why would we use higher levels against a Mega?), though thankfully that was mostly in the beginning and then it stabilized in just constantly sending Megas against the Chosen Children instead.

And then you have Hunters, where something that took half a season to accomplish (Super Evolution) becomes something everyone can do without effort (except Nene, because woman) with no explanation. And we have to add a retcon to make one of the protagonists use it (Damemon is his base form and needs to evolve to take what was his real form, sure, why not).

Digimon just needs to never have sequels, ever. And I say this as someone who'd love to see more of Tamers or Savers. It just isn't worth it.

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012

Larryb posted:

This kind of stuff is what makes me glad they decided to abandon any sense of continuity between shows after 02 (aside from Tri that is). If every series is its own seperate universe that makes discrepancies like these a lot less glaring.

technically speaking Tamers had Adventure as a show in-universe, tho to be fair that could have just been a localization made joke

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND

mandatory lesbian posted:

technically speaking Tamers had Adventure as a show in-universe, tho to be fair that could have just been a localization made joke

It originally was, I'm pretty sure Konaka said that the show Takato watched was not Adventure, but then Hunters has Takato point out it's really cool to see Adventure!Taichi and Daisuke together and the Adventure PSP game writes Takato as a giant Taichi fanboy, thus apparently deciding that Adventure really was the show Takato and the others watched.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014

Blaze Dragon posted:

And then you have Hunters, where something that took half a season to accomplish (Super Evolution) becomes something everyone can do without effort (except Nene, because woman) with no explanation. And we have to add a retcon to make one of the protagonists use it (Damemon is his base form and needs to evolve to take what was his real form, sure, why not).

To be fair, Nene wasn't in Hunters plot in the first place, only ever being a cameo. The is made worse by the fact that Nene has two partners, Sparrowmon and Mervamon but only the former would be able to digivolve being analogous to either a large Rookie or and small Champion while the latter is analogous to a Mega.

Meanwhile Hunters' actual recurring female character, Airu, does have a partner capable of Digivolution, Opossummon.

And as for Damemon, there is a theory to explain that which I've come to accept as fanon:

The Golux posted:

They actually covered this pretty well in young hunters. I was initially annoyed at them starting to treat it as an evolution and a separate digimon suddenly, but it's pretty clear in the anime that Tuwarmon was originally the actual digimon, with Damemon being only a disguise, but after it was deleted, Yuu's friendship and whatever basically created Damemon as a separate digimon that was weaker than Tuwarmon but able to evolve into it.

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

He's been tapping into Aunt May's bank account!
Didn't I kill him with a HELICOPTER?

Blaze Dragon posted:

It originally was, I'm pretty sure Konaka said that the show Takato watched was not Adventure, but then Hunters has Takato point out it's really cool to see Adventure!Taichi and Daisuke together and the Adventure PSP game writes Takato as a giant Taichi fanboy, thus apparently deciding that Adventure really was the show Takato and the others watched.

Digimon Tamers2
Fifteen years later, Takato spends a day ranting online about how much Tri sucks while Rika keeps telling the guys to help her protest against the new Yugioh Master Rule.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
One thing I will say that Adventure 01 has over G1

While it has worse animation than G1, because quite frankly Adventure doesn't have the animation budget of goddamn Archer, its core story and characters are really goddamn strong. There's not a huge amount of depth, but for an epic self contained kids adventure series that spans two worlds and involves the fate of the universe, juggling 8 to 16 main characters, it remains really goddamn solid and there are no really serious oversights. All of the characters matter, all the characters get big important moments, all of the Digimon are used extremely well and are incredibly memorable

It's not perfect, Apocalymon coming the gently caress out of nowhere without any real set up is always going to be a flaw, but it's really drat good even to this day. It also helps that it makes the heroes feel really goddamn powerful by the end, without cheaping out on the villains. There is a sense of progression to the threat and power scale, with the only initial hiccup being Etemon until you see him in action, and even then he gets a super powered form by merging with the Dark Network. Plus Datamon was the real villain of that arc.

I am honestly worried about Tri now. The fourth movie was more of a cliff notes of a story rather than a real thing- even if Seraphimon shouldn't be glorified above the others, he still deserved more than being a shoe horned in after thought in a fight that was already seven kinds of over kill against a lesser version of a classic enemy who didn't even get to do anything.

Hopefully five and six turn things around and this will just be the rough patch in the sea.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
TK got a lot of focus in Confession, though, with the whole Patamon thing, so him taking a back seat to Sora getting an actually interesting arc is fine by me. The presence of, say, Puppetmon would have made his presence feel more justified, but maybe they've got something planned that requires both Puppetmon and Piedmon to be around as villains.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool

Burkion posted:

Okay look, and you know I agree with you on DBZ power level bullshit, but you know drat well that there is a very loud part of the DBZ fan base that still believes quite feverishly in power levels. This is a terrible analogy for you to bring up.

I've at least found people who are willing to have that kind of discussion, especially here. That's the frustrating part.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
so someone did a massive sociogram of all the ways the different groups in Bandai's Digimon mythology. If you've ever been curious about how all that fits together it may be worth a look:

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
THE FOUR GREAT DRAGONS


only three have been made

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
Uh, did you not notice the line saying that Qinglongmon is a member?

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

TFRazorsaw posted:

Uh, did you not notice the line saying that Qinglongmon is a member?

Quite frankly I missed that in the nigh incestuous slurry of words and chaotic detail that is this clusterfuck

I just love that they have the words FOUR GREAT DRAGONS, when only three are pictured as members.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
There's a lot of information to convey. It's about as clear as it's gonna get. I'm sure any other long running media wouldn't look much different.

I mean, it's no Summers family tree.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

TFRazorsaw posted:

There's a lot of information to convey. It's about as clear as it's gonna get. I'm sure any other long running media wouldn't look much different.

I mean, it's no Summers family tree.

Yeah but it doesn't even cover how most of these guys actually are represented in the media- like how the Four Guardians are actually the Digimon of the original Chosen and not a natural part of the world and how Gallantmon is both



Look what I'm trying to say is, for as complicated and insane as this is- if you add in EVEN ONE series twists to the canon of the greater Digimon lore, this whole thing just turns into a double helix of confusion

Which is a great thing, don't get me wrong

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
Well, again, it was meant to cover the Bandai stuff, which has grown into its own universe and continuity at this point.

It's like the Zoids Battle Story stuff they did back in the day, I guess. The first anime (Chaotic Century/Guardian Force vs. Adventure) takes from it and hits most of the same beats, but then the sequel (New Century Zero vs. Adventure 02) goes off in its own direction a bit... and then all the unrelated spin offs and stuff take their own direction and just use the same monsters/robots/whatever.

Scratchman Apoo
Mar 27, 2011

Kurui Reiten posted:

Let's be honest, that was kind of bullshit no matter how you slice it. Angewomon is an Ultimate, and there's two high powered Champions pitching in there too. That should probably had killed the poo poo out of him. That's just bad writing.

Yeah that was a pretty dumb moment. It basically only happened so we'd get that great scene of Machinedramon icing him.

Through a viewscreen? Somehow? I don't know. It was cool.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
He made the room self destruct. The dub was pretty stupid there.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
Because we haven't had enough discourse in this thread, let's talk about what might have been. Specifically, this guy.



Tyrannomon. Not many people know this, but this guy was actually the very first digimon designed. Back when the first V-Pets were being put out, they reused sprites from Bandai's various kaiju virtual pets, with Tyrannomon here being the stand in for Godzilla himself. You can also tell Bandai had plans for him, given the fact that he looks more like an obvious evolution of Agumon, one of the very first V-pet Child-levels and already being primed for franchise mascot, and given he's one of the harder Adult-levels to reach in the virtual pet, making him somewhat special.

But he just never really took off like Greymon, who in the first v-pet is a more easily acquired monster. The reasons for this are probably two-fold; one, again, Greymon is easier to get, which means he was more likely to stick in kids' consciousness than Tyrannomon. Second, MetalGreymon appears in version 1, while MetalTyrannomon, Tyrannomon's own Perfect form, was left for a later version.



That being said, you can definitely tell MetalGreymon wasn't designed with the idea of being part of a franchise-leading evolution line. His posture here is kraven and cowardly-looking, his skin is blue and death-like, and he's just made out to be kind of creepy. The sudden introduction of the orange MetalGreymon of the Pendulum virtual pets and the anime is clear evidence of a re-visioning that coincides with them finding Greymon to be more popular. And remember, WarGreymon was first designed for the anime project, unlike a lot of the other first-generation Ultimates like Hououmon and HerakleKabuterimon, which also lends credence to the idea there was a paradigm shift behind the scenes.

Still, I can't help but wonder what might have been. Tyrannomon's gotten a resurgence as of late, with Re: Digitize honoring his status as the first Digimon to give him a specially designed Ultimate form, RustTyrannomon. And what's more, he's the mascot of the 20th anniversary, appearing on the logo for it. At the same time, he's never really gotten a starring role in anything, and Greymon continues, and always will, to overshadow him.

What would Digimon be like today if Tyrannomon had been the "face" of Agumon's evolutions? Is there an alternate universe where Omegamon's other attack is "Tyranno Sword"? We'll never really know.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 21:31 on May 2, 2017

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
For one, we probably would've seen a way more traditionally noble line for Tyrannomon. It feels like MetalTyrannomon is a lot more sinister, drawing more from DarkTyrannomon. Master Tyrannomon could've been the form they went with, but it doesn't quite have the punch that makes a lot of protagonist Ultimates work.

Maybe Megadramon? I'm not sure.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
MasterTyrannomon is also more or less a recolor, with beefier proportions but otherwise identical traits and the addition of scars all over its body.

EDIT - for what it's worth, MetalTyrannomon uses the normal Tyrannomon's traits as a base, with the same proportions and a similar "decayed" look as MetalGreymon's first version. I could see a more heroic version of him changing his colors to red in the same way MetalGreymon got switched to orange.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 22:52 on May 2, 2017

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
I think Greymon is also more interesting and appealing, visually? "Big red dinosaur" is cool, yeah, but "big orange dinosaur with blue markings, and he's got a horned-helmet" is much more striking and unique, and that orange stands out more than Tyranno Red does.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
Very true. Proportionally, Tyrannomon is also kinda dumpy. Greymon feels a lot more of an action packed design.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
well, I mean, the original look for Greymon is kinda goofy looking



In comparison Tyrannomon is a lot smoother and less weirdly proportioned. The anime really "smoothed" him over, though not to the same extent as MetalGreymon.

I really think being the more readily available evolution played a big factor.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
It also occurs to me that Guilmon/Growlmon may be as much a shout-out to Tyrannomon as they are to Greymon.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool
It's a longshot, but maybe? Kenji Watanabe has worked on this series from the beginning as chief designer, and he's clearly got a soft spot for old Tyranno.

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012
i want the world where skullgreymon is greymon's proper evolution

also, i always liked blue metalgreymon better then orange, altho the change is probably for the better

Kurui Reiten
Apr 24, 2010

TFRazorsaw posted:

Because we haven't had enough discourse in this thread, let's talk about what might have been. Specifically, this guy.



You can also tell Bandai had plans for him, given the fact that he looks more like an obvious evolution of Agumon

I never noticed this before, but good gently caress looking at it with that in mind, I can totally see it.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

Kurui Reiten posted:

I never noticed this before, but good gently caress looking at it with that in mind, I can totally see it.


Here's a hue-shifted version for shits and giggles.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich
I wouldn't mind this happening

https://twitter.com/Digisoulweb/status/859918555307024384

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012
i don't speak...porteguese? dark titzinime

and i'm def not aware of the significance of metalgaruruman's head becoming red

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich

mandatory lesbian posted:

i don't speak...porteguese? dark titzinime

and i'm def not aware of the significance of metalgaruruman's head becoming red

That's another Omegamon variant, Omegamon Alter-S. Instead of being formed by WarGreymon and Metal Garurumon, he's formed by two new digimon: BlitzGreymon and CresGarurumon





The edgy Omegamon that shows on Next Order, Omegamon Alter-D is a corrupted version of Alter-S.

Oh and that tweet is in spanish. :v:

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012
ah, i just guessed Portuguese since i think you said you were Brazilian

thanks for explaining :p

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girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

mandatory lesbian posted:

ah, i just guessed Portuguese since i think you said you were Brazilian

thanks for explaining :p
Anime VictoryGreymon when?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI4U26TezmU

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