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I don't know what's worse: everything that's been mentioned about these sacks of poo poo, or the one guy who's wearing a terrible red tie/black blazer/tan pants combo. That combo drives me nuts, and it's always idiots like that that wear it.
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Apr 29, 2017 19:15
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Is that guy on the left holding up a flag from Assassin's creed and a templar shield?
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Apr 29, 2017 19:33
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Is that guy on the left holding up a flag from Assassin's creed and a templar shield? Yes
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Apr 29, 2017 19:35
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Pick a side!
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Apr 29, 2017 19:51
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The doublethink is clearer than ever.
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Apr 29, 2017 20:19
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They're dressing like "Based Stickman". https://newrepublic.com/article/141766/unlikely-rise-alt-right-hero At some protest against Donald Trump, there were protesters on both sides fighting, and the guy in the picture below showed up carrying a shield with an american flag and a stick. http://i68.tinypic.com/149tjxx.jpg
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Apr 30, 2017 05:40
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I'm the upside down capital Lambda.
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Apr 30, 2017 06:02
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Is that guy on the left holding up a flag from Assassin's creed and a templar shield? Yes and no in order It's a new little org of fascists, the fraternal order of the alt-knight. A chapter just opened up in Buffalo
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Apr 30, 2017 11:37
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So the feedback from the last time I discussed Artisans versus Specialists gave me a tremendous amount to think about and lead to a considerable re-evaluation of how I was approaching the entire topic. I would like to share some of the results; however before I do that I would like to touch upon why I think this is such an important concept/topic. This topic is imp[ortant because I believe that both Artisans and Specialists play a very important role in human society, however at present there is a lack of recognition/appreciation for the differences between these two groups and how society can both accommodate meaningful/complimentary roles for both as well as facilitate improved communication. Put another way, I think society can be advanced if we learn to recognize and appreciate the differences between Artisans and Specialists, and then change how we talk to each other in recognition of the subconscious differences between the ways that each group is experiencing the same reality. First off let me construct a conceptual metaphor for the express purpose of comparing Artisans versus Specialists. Note, this is a metaphor and not intended to be a literal argument in support of the underlying conceptual structure of the metaphor. That is to say I am not literally arguing that the brain is a computer here, I am using concepts related to our common experience of using a computer in order to better explain my ideas. With that said, let us accept for a moment the premise that the brain is essentially a biological computer. A biological-computer brain would then have two primary components impacting how it functioned, its hardware (the physical structure of the brain) and its software (the equivalent of an operating system). Our discussion here will be concerned primarily with the idea of of the software component of a biological-computer brain, a concept which for the sake of this metaphor I will simply refer to as "HumanOS". If we consider for a moment how a species with brains whose complexity is by necessity severely simplified (because a young brain does not possess the raw hardwire to run the full HumanOS), then it seems to follow that it would not be possible to simply transfer a complete copy of HumanOS into a newborn infant. Instead it would seem reasonable that what is installed in an infant is the equivalent of a self-mutating algorithm that has a high probability (assuming acceptable conditions during childhood) of evolving into a full fledged form of HumanOS over the course of moving from birth into adulthood. Following this line of thinking further it would seem probable that there are several recognizable variations in how this algorithm ultimately matures based upon conditions experienced during the evolutionary process. Or put another way, this algorithm solves certain commonly-experienced situations during maturation in common ways based upon the feedback received during the evolutionary process- recognizable varieties within the architecture of HumanOS itself. These differences in architecture then have very subtle but nontheless distinct impacts on human behavior. The primary difference between an Artisan and a Specialist then is rooted in differences in HumanOS- differences that occur as a result of social conditions encountered ruing the regular maturation process. Artisans and Specialists exist on a scale of 1-20, with 1 representing a (hypothetical) maximum Specialist and 20 representing a (hypothetical) maximum Artisan, with plenty of space where there are degrees of overlap. The position an individual falls on this scale is influenced primarily by nurture (or social environment during maturation), and secondarily by nature (genetically encoded predisposition). In a given population set certain rare individuals will fall strongly on one side of this scale no matter what sort of social environment they are raised in, whereas the bulk of the population will be swayed by their social environment experienced during maturation to trend very heavily in one direction or the other on this hypothetical scale. The underlying architectural difference in HumanOS between an Artisan and a Specialist is what I will label "preference for variation". Specialists score very low on this preference, and Artisans score very high. Preference for variation is developed over a long period of time in a given individual as a result of a feedback loop during the maturation process of HumanOS. Specialists have a low preference for variation because during development they experience more rewarding social feedback from concept mastery- meaning they experience social rewards for demonstrating mastery of a tasks/concepts that require great amounts of repetition in order to develop. As they experience this feedback loop Specialists develop the conceptual architecture in HumanOS to support the discipline and self control necessary to experience constant repetition(as a result Specialists are frequently high skilled tool users and tend to prefer trade professions). Specialists further come to prefer social structures that encourage/reward discipline and as a result tend to prefer hierarchical social constructs wherein social norms are plainly laid out and little change (or variation) occurs. Artisans come to experience what I call "meaningful self expression" through their mastery of a given concept/task. As a collective result of all this Specialists are frequently workhorses that find a depth of meaning in performing their trade. They prefer working long hours and frequently find meaningful fulfillment in doing so. **I must emphasize that the above is not meant as an attack on Specialists, this is an observation meant to improve communications. As I will demonstrate below Specialists are very good at certain social roles and there is plenty of room to accommodate them and their particular needs in society.** Artisans by comparison experience more social rewards for what I will call concept cross-pollination. Which is to say that An Artisan experiences more social rewards in their environment by learning just enough of a given task/concept to grasp some of the underlying logic and then applying that logic in a creative manner to a different task/concept. Artisans as a result of this come to prefer experiencing as many variations of subjects that catch there interest as possible in an effort to seek out new ways to cross-pollinate the lessons learned from one area of interest to another. (This can manifest in subtle ways like a preference for trying new routes between frequently traveled locations like work and home.) Artisans tend to develop an appreciation for social environments that encourage constant experimentation with variation, further an Artisan requires the ability to constantly experiment with variations in order to feel fulfilled in life. Artisans come to find "meaningful self expression" through the constant experimentation in concept cross-pollination; they need to try a new route home or listen to a cover of a song they already enjoy. Artisans also develop an aesthetic appreciation for individuals who can skillfully weave together many minor variations of a central theme into a unified whole. With all the above stated let me provide a demonstration between a person who would score very low on my hypthetical scale (a Specialist) and someone who would score very high )an Artisan). This article is about gun violence but contains an rare example of a Specialist talking about themselves in a very self-ware manner. One of the top trauma surgeons in the world posted:“It’s so hard to take care of patients without making mistakes that you need every edge.” She recently hired a sports psychologist to talk to the residents about strategies for peak performance. Visualization. Positive self-talk. Breathing. For most of her career, she has stopped at the same Dunkin’ Donuts to order a large coffee with cream and two Sweet‘N Lows. A few years ago, the store stopped carrying Sweet‘N Low so she bought a box and left it there; they keep it under the counter for her. “It’s pink,” she told me once. “Sweet‘N Low is pink, Equal is blue, Splenda is yellow. And that is how you have to build a good system, believe it or not. So nobody makes a mistake.” Note how to this Specialist she experiences a meaningful amount of variety through her intense mastery of a craft requiring intense and repetitious use of manual tools. And now on the flipside- a quick demonstration of individuals who would score very high on my hypothetical scale as Artisans. This is a dancing Mormon violinist and an Acapella group (that also includes a beat-boxing cellist) teaming up to do a genuinely fresh cover of an overplayed pop song. Note how this works because it is a skillful interweaving of many minor variations of a well established central theme into a unified whole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2GCa-_nyU I think that once Artisans and Specialists can learn to recognize and communicate with each other society can be greatly benefited, because right now the two groups usually regard one another with suspicion and distrust. I believe that we can learn to coexist in a social manner that will lead to an improvement in overall happiness for all, but that can only happen once we start trying to talk to each other with a mutual recognition of the subconscious differences that exist in how we are all processing the same reality. Edit: This video is a fictional demonstration of an Artisan talking about his coffee creation to a chemistry Specialist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ83kt4a2-A Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 01:46 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 01:43
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Not gonna go too much in detail, since it's been brought up in the thread more than a few times. But your description of Specialists vs Artisans sounds just like a textbook description of a person who scores 'low-openness' vs someone who scores 'high-openness' in the Big Five model of personality.
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May 3, 2017 02:22
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umalt posted:Not gonna go too much in detail, since it's been brought up in the thread more than a few times. But your description of Specialists vs Artisans sounds just like a textbook description of a person who scores 'low-openness' vs someone who scores 'high-openness' in the Big Five model of personality. I would agree with that general assessment, I think what distinguishes my idea here is that I am providing an explanation for why this exists as well as a suggestion for how society can be adapted to enable an individual to optimize their lived experience based upon an understanding of where they fall on my spectrum. Both can provide complimentary roles in society, as Artisans tend towards innovation whereas Specilaists tend towards refinement. Both ARtisans and Specialists are needed and neither is inherently superior to the other, they do however have differing paths towards experiencing a fulfilled life as well as sharing the mistaken assumption that everyone else thinks like they do. for example this video shows an Artisan interacting with a group of Specialists who have been the victims of a prolonged campaign by the GOP to erode public education. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2S5IjQCQos Narrativism is more readily spread through Specialists than it is through Artisans (although Artisans are by no means immune to becoming Narrativists, they are rather in possession of a higher herd-resistance) and as a result Narrativism has spread like wildfire through the many Specialist-dominated rural communities that the GOP has targeted with its disinformation campaigns. I think the above situation can be remedied, but not easily and not without first recognizing and valuing our cognitive differences in the same way we recognize and value other differences in humanity.
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May 3, 2017 02:33
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that long post about artisans and specialists was very cool and good the feedback loops we habituate when young based on what's rewarded in our environment is an interesting thing to think about
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May 3, 2017 06:21
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crazy cloud posted:that long post about artisans and specialists was very cool and good I think so, it certainly has provided a rather fertile field of inquiry for my own mental explorations. The most interesting context I have personally found thus far for this work is to consider the difficulties encountered when a society moves rapidly from being dominated by one type to being dominated by another within living memory. Insofar as many of Americas rural areas are concerned these communities have traditionally been Specialist-dominated subcultures- because the agrarian social environment encourages the development of the Specialist pattern. By contrast America's urban subcultures have traditionally been Artisan-dominated for a combination on interlocked factors. 1.) Artisans are much more likely to immigrate to a new location if they are unhappy in their current environment than Specialists are. 2.) The nature of urban living, multiplied by the intermixing of so many cultures across such a broad spectrum of humanity creates a social environment that very strongly encourages the development of the Artisan pattern. From this perspective a massive-but-overlooked component of the culture war in America is the combined might of the Artisan-dominated urban subcultures overwhelming the Specialist-dominated agrarian subcultures. From this perspective there is some validity to the Conservative complaint that "their culture" is being wiped out. Specialist culture is being largely wiped out in the US- and this is reflected in everything from shutting down the trade schools and forcing everyone to go to college (Specialists are much happier overall when employed in skilled trades) to the many stereotypes of agrarian Specialists that provide endless fodder for the Artisan-dominated entertainment industry. An interesting side-tangent to this perspective is what is happening in Japan with the Hikikomari. I would argue that Japan evolved as such a Specialist-dominated culture that the rigid hierarchical strucutres preferred by Specialists are hard-coded not only into Japanese social structures, but the very architecture of the Japanese language itself. I would argue that this was fine as long as Japanese citizens were Specialists in the mass majority, which I believe they were up until the post-war era. The introduction of young minds to modern entertainment media in the post-war era inculcated the development of the Artisan pattern in a society where expressing the constant need for variety is incredibly difficult. As a result of this inability to fulfill the emotional needs of being Artisans (in conjunction with not being able to easily immigrate to a social environment where they could) a very large portion of Japanese Artisans have become socially withdrawn. They have become what are called Hikikomari, "Herbivore Males". From the perspective of my work I would argue that Hikikomari represent an evolutionary failsafe inherent in HumanOS that causes an individual to socially withdraw and cease participating in the social transmission of self-replicating behavior patterns. I believe that this particular failsafe is not unique to HumanOS but is rather something that exists in other mammalian species. Now to be specific here I am arguing that within the context of a biological-computer brain which is running some form of operating system which by design relies heavily on the cooperation of community members there would need to be failsafes which when triggered would cause an individual to withdraw from participating in cooperative activities. These failsafes would cause potentially dangerous individuals to isolate themselves, while on the flipside thee failsafes could cause an entire community to eventually cut itself off from the species if a sufficient percentage of said community had these failsafes triggered. I believe that in the case of humans we have a need for what I call "meaningful self-expression". Artisans and Specialists meet this need in different ways (Specialists through tool using, Artisans through conceptual cross-pollination) and if this need goes unmet then Artisans and Specialists react in different ways as well. Repressed Artisans tend to withdraw from society, whereas repressed Specialists tend to become Narrativists. In light of this I would present for consideration the "beautiful ones" of Universe 25. I believe they represent the mouse equivalent of Hikikomari- social withdrawal from the community brought on by the inability to experience meaningful self expression (which in the case of a mouse is just serving a useful social role). Please allow me to provide some context on Universe 25. Universe 25 was an experiment by John B. Calhoun designed to test what would happen to mammal communities in overpopulation scenarios. The experiment was designed as an enclosure that was an ideal habitat for thousands of mice, with all the food and space such a large population would require. To this enclosure was introduced 16 breeding pairs, and from there the scientists did not interfere except to kep the enclosure clean. The idea was to see what would happen once the mouse population eventually expanded beyond the generous capacity within the enclosure. However the entire colony died long before it came even close to reaching max capacity. Specifically the colony died because it mouse society became so dysfunctional that they collectively stopped breeding. The last members of the colony died of old age. What happened was that the ideal conditions enabled an exponential explosion in the mouse population. While this was fine for awhile, eventually the population was expanding much faster than new social roles for coming-of-age mice would naturally emerge. This lead to a huge mass of idle and disaffected mice that hung out in the center of the enclosure all day doing largely nothing- with the exception of the occasional bout of mass violence or group orgies. Eventually a sub-group of mice emerged that the scientists dubbed "the beautiful ones" because these mice did not bear any wounds from the violence that occurred in the mouse mosh-pit. These mice instead would withdraw themselves as far away from all other mice as possible and do nothing at all except eat and groom themselves. It is my conjecture that what was happening in mouse society was the mouse equivalent of the natural expression/transmission of self-replicating behavior patterns was disrupted by the sustained population boom. MouseOS was unable to cope with the situation and so mouse society broke down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doOXWSXbRCc What I am suggesting here is that in the case of Japanese Hikikomari we have an example of Artisans being unable to express/transmit their dominant self-replicating behavior pattern as a result of the conjunction of a huge range of factors, and this is causing HumanOS to trigger some sort of failsafe that causes an individual to withdraw from society and cease participating in the transmission of self-replicating patterns to the extent possible. I would argue that this would be a probably necessary evolutionary feature of any operating system for a community-reliant species- which mammals qualify as rather handily. So if the operating system of an individual is too overwhelmed it triggers a failsafe which causes them to socially withdraw. If this plays out often enough across a community it can lead to a community collapse resulting from self-replicating behavior patterns no longer being socially transmitted. With Universe 25 mouse society broke down because the too many members of the population were individually unable to express/transit the mouse equivalent of self-replicating behavior patterns- leading to the breakdown of mouse society as mice reacted to the cessation of the transmission of self-replicating behavior patterns in a variety of ways- particularly the emergence of "beautiful ones".. The common thread here is that if mammals are unable to socially express and transmit these patterns then their individual ability to participate in society is severely diminished- and if these conditions become widespread enough then it essentially leads to the collapse of society along paths particular to the specific self-replicating behavior patterns being socially repressed. I am further suggesting that what we see in Japan with regards to Hikikomari emerging from Artisans being unable to express their pattern in a Specialist-dominated social environment is sort of the inverse of the problem we have in the US wherein Specialists are finding it very hard to meaningfully express their pattern (and becoming Narrativists as a result).
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May 3, 2017 17:32
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Holy poo poo, yes.
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May 5, 2017 06:48
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Systems thinkers are vulnerable to accepting systematics in a naive way without critically evaluating them, especially if they lack exposure to how criticism in the liberal arts works.
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May 5, 2017 19:31
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Both of these last two posts have been cool and good. If I may make a suggestion: As a person with a degree in Japanese, it's 'hikikomori.'
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May 6, 2017 12:24
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I guess I'm still trying to get a handle on what an Artisan even is exactly if it isn't simply openness to new experience. Putting it on a spectrum just makes it more confusing to me. I suppose someone who enjoys hearing remixes to a song he already likes would be showing artisan tendencies, but what about if he doesn't like any remixes to a particular song because they always seem to lose a particular essence of the original work that he likes... I guess that would be a specialist tendency... or do you have to be annoyed by the very concept of a remix or at least believe that everything is in competition for "the best" version of the song in order to be specialist... or what if he's a specialist all along and it's just that he enjoys the song mostly for the melody and the specific tempo or instrumentation isn't such a big deal or *head explodes*
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May 6, 2017 22:34
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Going back to an earlier topic of this thread for a moment: I just found this article from an evangelical preacher who was raised in that background, rebelled and eventually fled that environment, as he slowly came to realize how out-of-whack his perception and understanding was with reality. It seems very similar to your own experiences, Prester Jane.quote:Facts were never the evangelical white voters’ “thing.”
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May 7, 2017 01:50
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OwlFancier posted:I'm the upside down capital Lambda. Smart money says these morons aren't aware Lambda has been a symbol of the gay moment for many years now.
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May 8, 2017 13:11
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Fuschia tude posted:Going back to an earlier topic of this thread for a moment: I just found this article from an evangelical preacher who was raised in that background, rebelled and eventually fled that environment, as he slowly came to realize how out-of-whack his perception and understanding was with reality. It seems very similar to your own experiences, Prester Jane. It reminds me of Albert Camus. He's a philosopher who posited that, "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide." He commented that life is meaningless, but we can still take joy from it. Life is absurd and meaningless, and that beyond mere physical suicide there is psychological suicide. That one can explain away absurdity as part of God's plan. Instead one should chain oneself to absurdity and enjoy it, thereby solving the problem of suicide. This isn't a perfect explanation. I suggest reading the Myth of Sisyphus. It's actually pretty short and helped me out in coming to terms with the absurdity and lack of purpose that I often find myself dealing with.
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May 8, 2017 16:00
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Tias posted:Smart money says these morons aren't aware Lambda has been a symbol of the gay moment for many years now. I wasn't either, I'm just not sure if they are trying to do a spartan thing (still kind of gay) or whether they are going for something else.
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May 8, 2017 19:51
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Whelp Comey got fired for getting to close in the investigation, any bets of this being Watergate 2: 2 Water 2 Gate?
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May 10, 2017 00:21
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So looking into "Based Stick Man" turned out to be a rather unexpected trip down memory lane. My own experiences with Narrativism in the late 90's and early aughts was full of small Paranoid Cluster Narrativist groups that very very frequently had an unusual obsession with swords and the like. So I started writing an article about that and in the process of conducting research stumbled upon an arcane bit of Internet history that I would like to share with you all. There was a fad among many Narrativists and Narrativist groups at the time called "radki" (short for radical ki). This was the idea that you could gain DBZ style powers by training your ki. While it was moderately a fad on its own, the vast majority of radki's adherents were Narrativists who incorporated radki into their inner narrative. Anywho back in 2005 there was a Goon group called "Bullshido" that focused on exposing bullshit martial arts training. As you might expect practitioners of radki wound up on Bullshido's radar and one of their members issued a "radki challenge". The idea was that an actually trained martial artist would spar with a radki adherent. So if you want to see a Narrativist have their inner narrative physically destroyed (quite literally) then I think you will enjoy this video. (link is ancient, so cannot embed video.) Fake edit: I also found a 36 page thread from 2005 wherein a bunch of radki adherents try to explain themselves. I haven't had time to pick through it yet but I rather strongly suspect that quotes from this link will be turning up in future articles.
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May 10, 2017 19:51
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Annointed posted:Whelp Comey got fired for getting to close in the investigation, any bets of this being Watergate 2: 2 Water 2 Gate? My suspicion at this point is that the corruption runs so deep that the first 5-6 people in the line of succession are all going to be taken down with this when it blows and we are going to have a real crises of leadership in trying to figure out who can lead America in the interim until the next election.
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May 10, 2017 19:53
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Prester Jane posted:So looking into "Based Stick Man" turned out to be a rather unexpected trip down memory lane. My own experiences with Narrativism in the late 90's and early aughts was full of small Paranoid Cluster Narrativist groups that very very frequently had an unusual obsession with swords and the like. So I started writing an article about that and in the process of conducting research stumbled upon an arcane bit of Internet history that I would like to share with you all.
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May 10, 2017 19:57
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Prester Jane posted:So looking into "Based Stick Man" turned out to be a rather unexpected trip down memory lane. My own experiences with Narrativism in the late 90's and early aughts was full of small Paranoid Cluster Narrativist groups that very very frequently had an unusual obsession with swords and the like. So I started writing an article about that and in the process of conducting research stumbled upon an arcane bit of Internet history that I would like to share with you all. What page do they show up? The first few are just some dumb 13 year old.
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May 10, 2017 20:51
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This twitter thread is pretty interesting, about the psychology of the GOP and how they've gone all-in on supporting Trump. He suspects they will not oppose Trump on anything, anymore, because it would mean too much painful introspection and confronting the terrible things they ignored and defended, even to the point of now craving direct attacks on democracy.
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May 10, 2017 21:41
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I'm kind of wondering what it would take at this point for those folks to go "okay yeah there's something fishy going on between Trump and Russia." I'm not even convinced that an actual recorded phone call between Trump and Putin where he goes "as long as the money keeps coming, you're the boss" would do it.
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May 10, 2017 21:46
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Oh man, I remember that thread. I wish I could remember more separate ki crazies from the Bullshido days, but aside from Ashida Kim they were all kind of the same. If you want to look into narrativists in non-political settings, though, you can't go wrong with people who think they have DBZ powers. The standard loop is something like this: Person A, believing in magic: "I have deadly qi powers." Person B, fights people for a hobby: "OK, let's fight, show me." Person A: "No." (insert weeks to months of bullshit that usually results in nothing happening, but sometimes...) Person A: "OK, we can now fight under these INCREDIBLY specific circumstances. " Person B: "OK." (Fight lasts about ten seconds, qi person gets destroyed) Person B: "Well, it seems yet again that magic qi powers aren't really a thing." Person A: "A HA! You are wrong. I simply held back because otherwise I would kill you." Person B: "God loving damnit..." The stories, with minor variation, continue to this day.
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May 10, 2017 21:52
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Fuschia tude posted:This twitter thread is pretty interesting, about the psychology of the GOP and how they've gone all-in on supporting Trump. He suspects they will not oppose Trump on anything, anymore, because it would mean too much painful introspection and confronting the terrible things they ignored and defended, even to the point of now craving direct attacks on democracy. Those policy goals, by the way, involve enriching the poor by making the United States into a death camp for the poor. So I don't know how much I can even credit Ryan, McConnell, Priebus, etc. with an ordinary sense of decency.
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May 10, 2017 22:13
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Halloween Jack posted:Those policy goals, by the way, involve enriching the poor by making the United States into a death camp for the poor. So I don't know how much I can even credit Ryan, McConnell, Priebus, etc. with an ordinary sense of decency. From what I've seen of the the new healthcare plans, this might also include people who were traditionally for Republicans like the old- would this event be the breaking point for the Narrativist base? I've seen a few clips on YouTube (so you know, grain of salt) of people shouting down/at their Republican representatives who voted for the bill.
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May 11, 2017 00:22
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There are few things that can uproot years-long conditioning in an authoritarian mindset, but your family literally dying off around you is one of the things that can do that.
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May 11, 2017 00:41
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Halloween Jack posted:There are few things that can uproot years-long conditioning in an authoritarian mindset, but your family literally dying off around you is one of the things that can do that. That's actually something that's been abuzz lately. The GOP plan lets insurance companies charge old people like five times what they'd charge non-old people and the AARP is understandably ticked off. Whether they like it or not there are literal millions of people worried/angry that they're going to lose insurance if this all goes down. Of course the GOP is screaming "FAKE NEWS LIEBERAL MEDIA BAD BAD BAD BAD BAAAAAADDDDDDDDDD BAD BAD" about it all but there's just no spinning it; there are Republican Senators who are criticizing the plan specifically because not enough people will lose insurance. All of their callous disregard for anything that isn't a rich white guy is coming out right now and there are a lot of people regretting handing full power to the GOP. For their part they're trying to figure out how to gently caress the poor with a jackhammer, spin it as a good thing, and keep power while nervously looking at how blue the young are and how much they're going to be hated if 20-30 million people suddenly can't go see the doctor anymore. Not to mention the economic fallout when a poo poo load of medical people that would otherwise be doing the work there would find themselves out of jobs. Job growth has been utter rear end, wages are still stagnant, the projections don't look good, and the GOP has proven that their plan of "we will literally usher in a conservative utopia where everybody will be rich because freedom" has been an absolute failure so far.
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May 11, 2017 01:33
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Plus, ya know, the fact that they are hastening the death of their voting demographic. It'll be a fun 2020 election when
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May 11, 2017 03:00
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Yeah I mean, it doesn't much matter if all the death is changing narrativist minds. It's going to straight up kill them and a ton of other people. But the people most likely to be affected are those in narrativist states and localities that refuse to pick up the slack when the feds are doing terrible things.
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May 11, 2017 03:11
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Prester Jane posted:My suspicion at this point is that the corruption runs so deep that the first 5-6 people in the line of succession are all going to be taken down with this when it blows and we are going to have a real crises of leadership in trying to figure out who can lead America in the interim until the next election. So I've been thinking on just this actually in the last few weeks. If there is a crisis of succession I think the person to stabilize the country would be Mattis who is sixth down the list. This would present its own problems with a general being the leader of the US, but he's an independent and American ideology is fairly slavish to the military. Also if it gets that bad it'd be good to have the full support of the military on the president's side because the wake of anger would probably be awful. And, most importantly, while he's connected to the Trump administration he was forced to serve in his cabinet. He can't say no without quitting his job. He could attempt to dodge it through unofficial means, but the only options when asked yes or no are to say yes or lose his job. It means he wouldn't be tainted with the same scandals because he could not decline unlike a civilian. All of you may think that the military being ascendant in US politics would be bad. I'd agree with you. It'd interject the military directly into partisan politics and I don't like that idea long term. However I think an independent in the white house would give the nation a cooling off period. No one would have someone from "their team" in the top job, but they wouldn't be able to grumble too much without looking "unpatriotic". If the Trump administration goes down it goes down hard and takes a ton of people with it. The military is one of the only respected institutions left in the nation and so if I had to pick a scenario that's the one I'd pick. It's not optimal, but I'll take sub-optimal. Some among you are still looking for perfect solutions that let all the steam off and those really don't exist anymore. The trick is to take solutions that work now even if they're not great in order to dodge worse ones down the road. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 03:32 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 03:27
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I heard Mattis is kind of popular amongst the military for being a relatively fair guy, but considering my primary source for the pulse of the American military is the webcomic Terminal Lance, how accurate is that perception?
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May 11, 2017 03:30
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CommissarMega posted:I heard Mattis is kind of popular amongst the military for being a relatively fair guy, but considering my primary source for the pulse of the American military is the webcomic Terminal Lance, how accurate is that perception? I listen to Dan Carlin. Dan is a thoughtful man who loves nuance and he speaks pretty high of the time when he got invited to a Centcom meeting and got to listen to the man speak. From what I understand the military by and large really loves this guy too and thought he was the right man for the job. Could be totally off base though. This is just what I know of his reputation from secondary sources. My thought though is that if Trump goes down he'll take Pence with him because Pence didn't insulate himself well enough. Paul Ryan is despised by the alt-right and they won't accept him, so if he tries to reach for that brass ring the GOP will be despised even by a large chunk of their own party and they will get absolutely slaughtered in 2018/2020. Especially if Trump gets a hold of a microphone and is allowed to go back to his business. I don't think Tillerson will be acceptable either despite being competent due to his previous dealings with Russia. Steven Mnunchin is a former Goldman-Sachs employee and that name is not going to be accepted by the American people. So my guess in this scenario is that Paul Ryan will try to grasp for the presidency, fail due to being despised and the rest of the succession below him has either been tainted by Russia (Tillerson) or the banks (Mnunchin). After that the choice is probably Mattis. Not sure who's after that though if he doesn't survive a clean sweep of the executive. I think the positioning of the GOP is the vice president goes down will be to go 100% into survival mode, pick Mattis and position themselves as "giving up power" and "saving the republic" by pushing an independent into office. And while America freaks out they can pin Mattis with all of the dirty poo poo he has to do during the cleanup. Again I could be wrong. We could just get Pence, but I'm not sure that Pence would survive scrutiny as he'd just too close to Trump despite not wanting to be. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 03:45 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 03:34
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CommissarMega posted:From what I've seen of the the new healthcare plans, this might also include people who were traditionally for Republicans like the old- would this event be the breaking point for the Narrativist base? I've seen a few clips on YouTube (so you know, grain of salt) of people shouting down/at their Republican representatives who voted for the bill. During the election I was constantly reading Narrativist media and message boards and that was a large factor in how my predictions were so accurate. I was watching things develop in real time across a broad spectrum of Narrativist media and comparing it with how things had generally progressed in my previous experiences with several cults. I have been much more hesitant of late to make predictions in part because of humbled I was by Hillary's unexpected loss, but also in large part because I simply do not monitor Narrativist media all that much anymore. That said I do take occasional deep dives into Narratrivist media and about 2 months ago I began to suspect that based upon a large number of personal factors I keep track of (like how many comments on a Breitbart vs Blaze vs PrisonPlanet story about the same topic) it appeared to me that the trend of the total number of Narrativists increasing with each compaction cycle (rather than the reverse); a situation that had been ongoing since election night, had finally reversed. That is to say that post election night we were gaining more Narrativists than we were losing despite the ongoing compaction cycles-a trend I had never previously observed and had not considered a possibility. (I was more than a little concerned at the prospects of what that might forbode) However about two months ago it seemed that the regular trend of compaction cycles resulting in fewer Narrativists had resumed. A prospect that I find to be rather encouraging although I at present cannot guess how much damage has been done and how much worse things might get now that there has been a surge of "new blood" into the compaction machine. Many of these Johnny-come-lately Narrativists will be the first to be compacted out- but they will still result in more overall compaction cycles, which means a higher overall level of compaction is achieved across a broader total number of Narrativists. So the news is encouraging, although overall still not very good. That said the greater the narrative dysphoria the larger/more rapid the compaction cycles and the higher the percentage of Narrativists that will be completely shaken out of their inner narrative as well. So presently I see at present an extremely odd combination of trends wherein a much higher than normal number of Narrativists are being shaken out of their inner narrative and this is a good thing, however on the flip side this is giving the existing high-compaction Narrativists a bonanza of slow moving targets for the compaction cycles that are necessary to deal with this kind of extreme narrative dysphoria and some of them are going way more batshit way more quickly than I had anticipated. That said, it might not wind up being entirely negative that the (previous to Trumps election) high-compaction Narrativists are being driven so quickly to such extremes. It leaves them prone to both developing and publicly speaking about/acting out on unusually strange inner narratives. Normally crafting an inner narrative is something of a considered process that a Narrativists goes through over time. They consider many potential variants of their inner narrative before selecting one and there is some "triming" (for lack of a better term) of the more bizarre variations their inner narrative could have taken. However if the Narrativist is under extreme stress/undergoing rapid and sustained narrative evolution as a result of constant compaction cycles then this mental "trimming" process does not occur and as a result Narrativists develop inner narratives that are unusual and bizarre even by the usual standards of Narrativism. This might be good because it causes high-compaction Narrativists to go so nuts so quickly that even other high-compaction Narrativists will start to avoid them. The potential leaders of violent groups then have a much harder time attracting sufficient numbers of other high-compaction Narrativists to become dangerous. On the other other flip side of all this you get a much higher increased chance for what I call the "nightmare scenario" of a high-compaction Narrativist group that would become prone to commit acts of violence. The nightmare scenario consists of a group of what I call "supercompactors" which I have discussed briefly before, (they are Narrativists that have a additional social dysfunction that results in them always being on the losing side of very frequent compaction cycles across every Narrativist group they jump through) that winds up being lead by an individual with a Cluster-B personality disorder- who may or may not be a Narrativist themselves. This group dynamic can result in some seriously bizarre poo poo that goes to absurd lengths. I know because I was a supercompactor in a Narrativist group packed full of supercompactors, and the person who wound up becoming our de-facto cult leader has since been formally diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. (To be fair literally every member of that group save one now has a formal diagnosis and about half of us are now legally disabled). I won't go into details, but just trust me on this when I tell you that I am so loving grateful that all that poo poo I was involved in happened 15 years ago and not today. Because gently caress knows what my little dysfunctional group of misfits (lead by an individual who for years got his kicks by systematically targeting and destroying us one at a time in a sick loving headgame that went on for almost a decade) might have talked ourselves into doing if we were angsty supercompactors being strung along by a severely manipulative individual who got their kicks by seeing to what depths of madness they could drive the group to accept and publicly act on under the present conditions. So although the total number of potentially violent groups is lower as a result of this extreme level of narrative dysphoria, the rapid compaction cycles create (or rather find) new supercompactors and the more of them that there are the higher overall chance you have of a "nightmare scenario" group being created. With the formation of things like the Alt-Knights and the Proud Boys the chances of nightmare groups being formed increases considerably through sheer force of the networking opportunities. So fewer overall potentially violent groups is a good thing, but if a nightmare scenario groups goes violent they will be highly prone to do something completely loving off the rails that might get a whole bunch of seemingly random people hurt. Edit: My formal predictions for what lies ahead at this point can be summed up as "Hahahahahahaha gently caress knows what will happen." Or, if you prefer more a Artisan-style summation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmn9asN-8AE Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 04:19 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 04:00
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 Sorry you went through all of that, PJ. I won't pretend that I get it, but I at least get that I don't get it. Anyway, I guess you're more inoculated due to your past. I can't dive into even the low compaction political stuff. Not video media anyway. There's just so much hate. It hums with violence like a sort of electrical current. That's just the stuff I can access on TV and radio too. I've never been able to go through a full hour of the stuff. It galls me when I realize that some people internalize that hate day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. These peoples' identities are being shaped through the language of violence and hate. What you said about compaction and inflation doesn't surprise me at all though. Among the right there was serious optimism after all. Trump won and his ideas were nominally popular on the surface. It makes me think of the political analogue of stagflation. The economic situation where you have economic stagnation and rampant inflation. It's not a perfect analogy though. Again I'm not surprised that his numbers shrink so rapidly either. He's been careening from one crisis to another. He knows how to get power, but doesn't know how to effectively wield it to govern, only to attain more power. He's used to playing his employees off one another so that they do their best to please him so it appeases his narcissism, but the stakes are too high and the amount of people he hurts scales up dramatically while his strategies for running his business didn't scale at all to becoming president. As for a nightmare scenario group, sure they could be created, but if it's big enough even domestic terrorists won't be able to be ignored anymore. Or there could be domestic terrorists trying to create false flag terrorist attacks (like those right wing officers that got caught in Germany recently) because the hatred towards their chosen other isn't accelerated like they want it to.
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May 11, 2017 04:19
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