Oldie Programming: Career Advice, Questions, Change of Directions

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Drastic Actions: Apr 7, 2009; FUCK YOU!
GET PUMPED!; Nap Ghost

Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

You're hurting your career by working on a WPF desktop app.

Ehh, it could be worse. If you're in C# then at least you can use that knowledge to extend to ASP.NET or Xamarin stuff.

Now if it's a VB.NET app... :barf:

# ? May 9, 2017 22:45

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 20:59

Skandranon: Sep 6, 2008; fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Drastic Actions posted:

Ehh, it could be worse. If you're in C# then at least you can use that knowledge to extend to ASP.NET or Xamarin stuff.

Now if it's a VB.NET app...

Start converting it to C#!

# ? May 10, 2017 04:43

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

You're hurting your career by working on a WPF desktop app.

I expect WPF will be with us for quite some time - if someone likes working with it, more power to them, I suppose.

B-Nasty posted:

This is an important distinction.

I've made a pretty good career (15 years so far) with minimal front-end work. I know enough Javascript/Angular/Knockout, CSS, and design to get by, but it's not my specialty and I don't enjoy it. Luckily, there seems to be plenty of work for the back-end "plumbing" guys that are good at architecture, API work, and database design (I do enjoy these things.)

Really, the concept of "full stack" is mostly bullshit for any applications beyond a trivial size/complexity. The person who wrote a 100KLOC React.JS codebase is most likely not going to be an expert at designing RDBMS indexes or writing 3rd-party integration code (and vice-versa), and nor should they have to be.

Hey now, I bet I could come up with a schema that wouldn't be too bad and hang a React monstrosity in front of it :colbert:

Of course, if the effort wasn't spread across multiple people with multiple specialties the whole thing would be hopelessly out of date by the time I was done, but at least I could help where needed.

# ? May 10, 2017 14:47

Doctor w-rw-rw-: Jun 24, 2008

Munkeymon posted:

I expect WPF will be with us for quite some time - if someone likes working with it, more power to them, I suppose.

WPF isn't getting much attention from Microsoft, and they're focusing on UWP instead with Win10. And they aren't doing a great job with that, either. The web browser is the best way we have right now to deliver products at a reasonable cadence, with reasonable independence from any single party, and to do so cross-platform.

Like it or not, if you compare a framework Microsoft isn't focusing on (because of other new shininess) to the thing billions of people are using, on a career level � future compensation or job opportunity-wise � the latter flat out wins.

A year isn't long enough for a decision to commit to a career in it to be meaningful, but after the lessons are learned (and you can learn good lessons from almost anything, really, if the environment is conducive to personal growth), it *is* opportunity cost.

Doghouse-of-five-years-in-the-future being an expert in WPF is almost certainly not going to have as many options in the future as Doghouse-of-five-years-in-the-future being an expert in almost any other technology for building desktop apps, or web apps. Ergo, yes, working in WPF if probably negative on future career prospects. At least UWP has more potential for future growth, but even then, Windows Store? Meh.

# ? May 10, 2017 15:52

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

I just meant it's going to be around for a long time in the same way as anything else Microsoft has made that has a presence in enterprise-y places. Kinda like VB6, but I didn't want to explicitly say that because WPF doesn't deserve that :\

# ? May 10, 2017 16:20

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

I'm getting emails from things like InterviewJet and Indeed Prime. Are they worth leveraging, or are they on the level of any other recruiter?

# ? May 10, 2017 16:25

Doctor w-rw-rw-: Jun 24, 2008

Well, brand name isn't everything, but imo there are three general tiers of recruiters I've dealt with. Generic online recruiters (meh), recruiting agency recruiters (okay), and in house recruiters (generally pretty good).

If those are online sites for job searching, I wouldn't expect much out of it but it wouldn't preclude me from using it for practice and maybe finding something good by accident.

If you're tight on time I'd work with a recruiter that is either in house or assigned to you from an agency, and can work with you to schedule. Less stress => better performance that way.

# ? May 10, 2017 17:30

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

Well, brand name isn't everything, but imo there are three general tiers of recruiters I've dealt with. Generic online recruiters (meh), recruiting agency recruiters (okay), and in house recruiters (generally pretty good).

If those are online sites for job searching, I wouldn't expect much out of it but it wouldn't preclude me from using it for practice and maybe finding something good by accident.

If you're tight on time I'd work with a recruiter that is either in house or assigned to you from an agency, and can work with you to schedule. Less stress => better performance that way.

Unless you are dealing with executive recruiters only the in house ones are worth the time.

# ? May 10, 2017 17:32

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

Anecdote: I got my first job out of college through a third party recruiter who contacted me based on my Monster.com profile.

I'm sure there is a very low signal to noise ratio, but it does happen.

# ? May 10, 2017 19:40

Doctor w-rw-rw-: Jun 24, 2008

Hughlander posted:

Unless you are dealing with executive recruiters only the in house ones are worth the time.

Yeah, but hence the caveats:

> practice
> maybe finding something good by accident

I managed to start on iOS and Android by getting hired through a recruiter to a dating site. It ended up being shady and poorly-managed, but valuable work experience that I initially felt wholly unqualified for.

# ? May 10, 2017 21:04

fritz: Jul 26, 2003

When I give a coding question I always give the same one and it's pretty easy and I always feel really bad when senior candidates can't solve it. (It's ultimately "do you know how the string api in the language of your choice works, and can you pick one of several data structures to solve it with)

# ? May 11, 2017 02:05

Mao Zedong Thot: Oct 16, 2008

fritz posted:

When I give a coding question I always give the same one and it's pretty easy and I always feel really bad when senior candidates can't solve it. (It's ultimately "do you know how the string api in the language of your choice works, and can you pick one of several data structures to solve it with)

like "HAHA it's actually leftTrim not trimLeft!" or what?

# ? May 11, 2017 02:07

raminasi: Jan 25, 2005; a last drink with no ice

Rando online recruiters have a pretty poor success rate but it's not zero. I got my current job through one, and I'm quite happy with it. But I went through three or four useless ones first.

# ? May 11, 2017 02:17

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

fritz posted:

When I give a coding question I always give the same one and it's pretty easy and I always feel really bad when senior candidates can't solve it. (It's ultimately "do you know how the string api in the language of your choice works, and can you pick one of several data structures to solve it with)

I always expect interview questions to bar me from using core library functions like String manipulation and what not, and that they'd make me do it old-style to prove I know how to index into an array and make a linked list or whatever. Sometimes it's hard to tell which interview questions are testing your domain knowledge and which ones are just CtCI cargo culting.

# ? May 11, 2017 03:14

Mniot: May 22, 2003; Not the one you know

Pollyanna posted:

I always expect interview questions to bar me from using core library functions like String manipulation and what not, and that they'd make me do it old-style to prove I know how to index into an array and make a linked list or whatever. Sometimes it's hard to tell which interview questions are testing your domain knowledge and which ones are just CtCI cargo culting.

I would actually never expect core libraries to be forbidden.

There are some interview problems that are crafted such that library functions can't help, like the classic "given a space-delimited string of $n$ words, reverse the order of the words to produce $w_n$, $w_n-1$, ... $w_1$. Also you must not use more than one character of additional memory."

But if you can solve the problem with a couple easy calls that's absolutely the first answer you should offer. They might ask you to solve again without the core library, but if they're not garbage they'll be happy that you're familiar with the core library.

I did have a front-end candidate once who, when asked to do some fizzbuzz-y thing was like "can I use Angular? OK: $ngFizzbuzz.generate(nums).print()". And that would have been great except he had no idea what to do when we asked for plain JS.

# ? May 11, 2017 04:03

asur: Dec 28, 2012

Pollyanna posted:

I always expect interview questions to bar me from using core library functions like String manipulation and what not, and that they'd make me do it old-style to prove I know how to index into an array and make a linked list or whatever. Sometimes it's hard to tell which interview questions are testing your domain knowledge and which ones are just CtCI cargo culting.

You shouldn't expect standard libraries to be barred unless the question is made trivial if you can use them. Even then if the interviewer doesn't specifically prohibit them you should bring it up.

# ? May 11, 2017 04:27

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

Pollyanna posted:

I always expect interview questions to bar me from using core library functions like String manipulation and what not, and that they'd make me do it old-style to prove I know how to index into an array and make a linked list or whatever. Sometimes it's hard to tell which interview questions are testing your domain knowledge and which ones are just CtCI cargo culting.

If you know that a problem can be solved easily using standard libraries, always offer that as your first solution. It shows you're familiar with the language and can recognize opportunities to apply existing tools, which are both excellent traits in a developer. Plus it takes like fifteen seconds for you to offer that solution and the interviewer to then go "great, okay, now what if you couldn't use that function?"

# ? May 11, 2017 04:39

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

If I ask you "How would you do this using the standard library?", you probably shouldn't try to code something from scratch.

# ? May 11, 2017 04:58

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

I remember an interviewer getting all huffy when I responded to a string manipulation question using core Ruby functions, and that left an impression on me when I was first trying to get a job. If I was interviewing someone, I wouldn't fault them for going for the core library implementation first.

# ? May 11, 2017 05:00

CPColin: Sep 9, 2003; Big ol' smile.

We would give people this bit of code and ask them how to make it more efficient:

code:

public <T> boolean hasElement(Collection<T> collection, T element)
{
   boolean found = false;
   for (T t : collection)
   {
      if (t.equals(element))
         found = true;
   }
   return found;
}

Barely anybody would say to return as soon as an element matched. Exactly one person said, "Uh, can you use Collection.contains()?" I always hoped for the latter. We didn't automatically disqualify people who didn't get it right, though.

# ? May 11, 2017 05:15

Paolomania: Apr 26, 2006

Pollyanna posted:

I remember an interviewer getting all huffy when I responded to a string manipulation question using core Ruby functions, and that left an impression on me when I was first trying to get a job. If I was interviewing someone, I wouldn't fault them for going for the core library implementation first.

The proper response by the interviewer should have been "Great! Now how would you implement that library function?"

# ? May 11, 2017 05:31

minato: Jun 7, 2004; cutty cain't hang, say 7-up.; Taco Defender

Mniot posted:

I would actually never expect core libraries to be forbidden.

I had the opposite experience once, kinda.

Many years ago when I was just out of college, I wrote a simple database program for a friend's VHS rental store that I included in my resume packet. His store was tiny so it was only designed for about 2000 records. The company I interviewed with looked at the program and quizzed me on various scenarios for improving it: "what would you do if you had to had to scale to 100,000 records?", "How would you implement relational searches?", etc. I answered with reasonable solutions as to how I'd modify the program to cope.

In the end I didn't get the job, because I'd "failed to come up with the best solution: to replace the program with an enterprise SQL database."

# ? May 11, 2017 05:36

mrmcd: Feb 22, 2003; Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

minato posted:

I had the opposite experience once, kinda.

Many years ago when I was just out of college, I wrote a simple database program for a friend's VHS rental store that I included in my resume packet. His store was tiny so it was only designed for about 2000 records. The company I interviewed with looked at the program and quizzed me on various scenarios for improving it: "what would you do if you had to had to scale to 100,000 records?", "How would you implement relational searches?", etc. I answered with reasonable solutions as to how I'd modify the program to cope.

In the end I didn't get the job, because I'd "failed to come up with the best solution: to replace the program with an enterprise SQL database."

Lol.

I mean using a well tested and supported commercial database can be a reasonable decision depending on the situation (and how many thousands of dollars your boss has to spend on 'enterprise' licenses) but that's not the question he asked you. Consider that bullet dodged.

# ? May 11, 2017 11:28

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

The web browser is the best way we have right now to deliver products at a reasonable cadence, with reasonable independence from any single party, and to do so cross-platform.

Or, y'know, Qt.

# ? May 11, 2017 13:00

Doctor w-rw-rw-: Jun 24, 2008

feedmegin posted:

Or, y'know, Qt.

Well I guess. But that doesn't buy you independence since now you have to deal with whether someone is willing to install your app and how to keep it updated. Chances are not low that you'd try an app store for a platform and now you're dependent on their restrictions to keep running. Or you'd go independent and just market it somehow and rely on people's trust and your own possible discoverability.

Web lets you deliver code much more smoothly IMO.

# ? May 11, 2017 13:11

sarehu: Apr 20, 2007; (call/cc call/cc)

feedmegin posted:

Or, y'know, Qt.

I laughed, but then again I thought this was an alternative to an enterprise SQL database.

# ? May 12, 2017 03:26

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

feedmegin posted:

Or, y'know, Qt.

I'm curious. What percent of products would you say are delivered by companies with a market cap of more than a billion dollars vs the same percent delivered by a web browser from the same companies. And why do you think that is?

Bonus points: would amazon or Facebook be as successful if they chose qt as their cross platform delivery mechanism?

# ? May 12, 2017 13:26

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Hughlander posted:

I'm curious. What percent of products would you say are delivered by companies with a market cap of more than a billion dollars vs the same percent delivered by a web browser from the same companies. And why do you think that is?

Bonus points: would amazon or Facebook be as successful if they chose qt as their cross platform delivery mechanism?

I said 'or'. It depends what you're doing, and this guy did say he was currently maintaining a desktop app. For instance I use Perforce, a cross-platform revision control system. It has a GUI client, p4v, which is written Qt. Good luck making a revision control GUI client for your local RCS as a plain old web page in the cloud somewhere, and the alternative is something like Electron where you essentially ship an entire browser as your app. I'll take Qt over that, thanks, and the world is not and will never be 100% Javascript-in-a-webbrowser.

# ? May 12, 2017 13:47

ExcessBLarg!: Sep 1, 2001

Pollyanna posted:

I remember an interviewer getting all huffy when I responded to a string manipulation question using core Ruby functions,

Much of what makes Ruby valuable for text processing is its String library functions. Low-level string manipulation in Ruby is pretty awful, but also slow, since you're now writing interpreted (or VM or whatever) code to do what the core library has a native implementation for. If you're going to make me byte hack anyways, I might as well do it in C.

# ? May 12, 2017 13:58

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

feedmegin posted:

I said 'or'. It depends what you're doing, and this guy did say he was currently maintaining a desktop app. For instance I use Perforce, a cross-platform revision control system. It has a GUI client, p4v, which is written Qt. Good luck making a revision control GUI client for your local RCS as a plain old web page in the cloud somewhere, and the alternative is something like Electron where you essentially ship an entire browser as your app. I'll take Qt over that, thanks, and the world is not and will never be 100% Javascript-in-a-webbrowser.

Right but p4 is a niche product from a company under a billion valuation. Look at SourceSafe as the counter. Native Apps written in Cocoa and I believe WPF to go back to the original post. From a career perspective specializing in Qt is a pretty bad choice in my opinion but you are welcome to feel otherwise.

# ? May 12, 2017 14:57

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

Hughlander posted:

From a career perspective specializing in Qt is a pretty bad choice in my opinion but you are welcome to feel otherwise.

I feel like anyone "specializing" in a framework is needlessly limiting their options. You should be able to get up to speed on basic tasks in a framework with a week or two of work, and be basically fluent in it in a couple of months. If that's not possible then it's the framework's fault.

The point isn't the framework, it's what you do with it.

# ? May 12, 2017 16:23

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I feel like anyone "specializing" in a framework is needlessly limiting their options. You should be able to get up to speed on basic tasks in a framework with a week or two of work, and be basically fluent in it in a couple of months. If that's not possible then it's the framework's fault.

The point isn't the framework, it's what you do with it.

I'll drink to that.

# ? May 12, 2017 16:32

Space Kablooey: May 6, 2009

What were the websites that practiced standard coding interview questions?

# ? May 12, 2017 16:46

Doctor w-rw-rw-: Jun 24, 2008

Hughlander posted:

Bonus points: would amazon or Facebook be as successful if they chose qt as their cross platform delivery mechanism?

Definitely no

# ? May 12, 2017 17:00

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

HardDiskD posted:

What were the websites that practiced standard coding interview questions?

I think I was using Leetcode. I like how it's organized, and they run multiple tests on your solution.

My big recommendation is to write down a few problems in a notebook and take that notebook to a park with a pen and write/reason out your solutions there. This both cognitively unties your skills from your computer desk, and gives you practice in white boarding.

If you get stuck, don't panic. Try to find the solution online and identify the concept you were missing.

# ? May 12, 2017 19:25

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

HardDiskD posted:

What were the websites that practiced standard coding interview questions?

leetcode.com is the best in my opinion in terms of being similar to real interview questions I've gotten.

hackerrank.com is pretty good for reviewing specific types of questions (graph, dp, etc.)

# ? May 12, 2017 19:26

Space Kablooey: May 6, 2009

Thanks guys!

Stinky_Pete posted:

My big recommendation is to write down a few problems in a notebook and take that notebook to a park with a pen and write/reason out your solutions there. This both cognitively unties your skills from your computer desk, and gives you practice in white boarding.

If you get stuck, don't panic. Try to find the solution online and identify the concept you were missing.

That's a really great idea!

# ? May 12, 2017 19:32

Iverron: May 13, 2012

Jose Valasquez posted:

leetcode.com is the best in my opinion in terms of being similar to real interview questions I've gotten.

hackerrank.com is pretty good for reviewing specific types of questions (graph, dp, etc.)

Hackerrank not showing the test cases is absolute bullshit.

If you can't take the 15 seconds it takes to look at someone's code to see if they're just returning the test cases then you deserve whatever you get.

# ? May 12, 2017 21:15

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

Iverron posted:

Hackerrank not showing the test cases is absolute bullshit.

If you can't take the 15 seconds it takes to look at someone's code to see if they're just returning the test cases then you deserve whatever you get.

In terms of interview prep I agree, but they advertise themselves as more of a competition than focusing on interview prep, so I kinda get it

# ? May 12, 2017 21:29

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 20:59

lifg: Dec 4, 2000; <this tag left blank>; Muldoon

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I feel like anyone "specializing" in a framework is needlessly limiting their options. You should be able to get up to speed on basic tasks in a framework with a week or two of work, and be basically fluent in it in a couple of months. If that's not possible then it's the framework's fault.

The point isn't the framework, it's what you do with it.

On the other hand, Rails. Which has keeps a lot of programmers employed and has entire ecosystems and specialities and such.

# ? May 12, 2017 21:54

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