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I think realism serves the game when it can be used to create interesting situations. Like if you eat tainted food or drink unpurified water, and get sick while out scavenging leaving a trail of puke behind you as you flee all the zombies attracted by the noise, that's interesting. Getting hit with some arbitrary statistical penalty because you weren't eating enough vitamin C isn't. I can see the intent behind wanting players to diversify their diet, but there has to be a better way than that. I mean a simple solution would just be that food comes in broad categories (like meat, dairy, etc.), and when you eat a meal in a particular category, the next meal you eat from that category will provide slightly less nutrition than it normally would, and so on (down to some minimum value likw 70% of normal). Eating something from another category will partially restore the lost efficiency from the other groups, so that to get maximum nutrition out of everything you'd need to balance at least 3 or for different things. It's not a great system but it basically encourages the same behaviour without crippling the player if they don't want to bother with it. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 20:24 on May 24, 2017 |
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May 24, 2017 20:20
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well, really, the whole nutrition thing overlies the concept of micro-damage to a body. a lot of people can handle a few days of roughing it on the move, but a few months is a much harder issue. bad nutrition is part of these micro-damages, they just haven't thought through the larger concept. no game has, really. even something like The Long Dark hasn't even attempted to handle things like walking 10 miles through foot-deep snow giving you a soft tissue injury in your hip, and the subsequent effects of that injury. everyone will model eating literally rancid meat giving you a mammoth stomach upset, but not the mild constipation and discomfort that will happen from being on a bread and water diet for a few days. nobody handles 'wear and tear', basically, and the nutrition stuff they put in was basically a half-hearted shot at it without thinking the problem through at all. i can respect attempting to handle this problem. it actually has a lot of interesting effects. if you got close to running out of supplies and had to run from town to town to restock, having a sore foot and an upset stomach for a few days is an interesting limitation on what you can do when you crash into town. Repeated small scratches to your arm and shoulder really should leave you with a bad crick in it that makes rampaging through a mall progressively more difficult. but even this crap isn't even 10% of the mammoth problem scope we are talking about here.
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May 24, 2017 21:00
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I think realism serves the game when it can be used to create interesting situations. Like if you eat tainted food or drink unpurified water, and get sick while out scavenging leaving a trail of puke behind you as you flee all the zombies attracted by the noise, that's interesting. Getting hit with some arbitrary statistical penalty because you weren't eating enough vitamin C isn't. i think it always needs to be sifted not by "what is this trying to make the player do" but "what decisions are we having the player make, and how are they interesting" like the concept of hunger is Good because it creates a basic driver to explore and get more food, which drives the entire engine of the game. you need weapons and armor to get food more easily and gear to get better weapons and armor and and and. sustainability undercuts that entire cycle, so it needs to be avoided at all costs. sustainable farming is Bad For The Game, samesies with things like back when you could get hundreds of pounds of biscuits from a quick acorn gathering trip or the way that hunting a single big animal gets you a pile of food that lasts for A Long Time. and all that's exacerbated with the default 'a month goes by in two weeks' or whatever thing. so i can kinda get where they're coming from, in that its not so much that you need to diversify your diet but that you need to engage the game systems again instead of being holed up with an infinitely producing farm or whatever. nutrition 'solves' that and has a bit of realism i guess, but its insanely bad because it doesnt really create interesting ~decision making~, since you just eat the single multivitamin drop that'll last you for months. (an aside: adding thirst on top of hunger really doesnt add much to the game other than slight fuzzing of that decision tree. it's super easy to get sustainable water sources from rain alone, so it only becomes something you need to manage rather than a decision driver, and the game would be better with thirst removed) if they really want to force a diverse diet, then just make have the game keep track of the last like 20 meals you've eaten and apply a well-fed morale penalty for each time beyond the first that you eat something that's already on the list. something that starts small so eating a bunch of moose meat after killing a moose gets a little boring, but eating nothing but biscuits for months would make you want to puke just looking at the flour bag. it'd need some tinkering so most meals are properly Meal Sized and side dishes are smaller, so if you eat a biscuit and some pizza and an orange it would be way more fun than eating six biscuits. but importantly the player doesn't need to micromanage that poo poo or pay attention to the list, while also get an immediate bit of feedback saying they're bored of the same poo poo if their diet sucks, and having a smothering morale penalty if they keep it up
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May 24, 2017 21:04
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The best way to do it I think is to make a varied diet a buff instead of a debuff. Make the player actively want to seek out different types of food for a bonus of some sort, whether that be a morale bonus, a skill learning bonus, or something else entirely. Chasing a buff feels better than staving off a debuff even if the math works out to be almost the same in the end.
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May 24, 2017 21:07
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Coolguye posted:i can respect attempting to handle this problem. it actually has a lot of interesting effects. if you got close to running out of supplies and had to run from town to town to restock, having a sore foot and an upset stomach for a few days is an interesting limitation on what you can do when you crash into town. Repeated small scratches to your arm and shoulder really should leave you with a bad crick in it that makes rampaging through a mall progressively more difficult. but even this crap isn't even 10% of the mammoth problem scope we are talking about here. i've always loved the idea of a system that eschews hit points and treats injuries as completely independent things with their own penalties. twenty scratches for 2-3 hp each should not be the same as one good gutshot for 50 hp. then each wound has its own healing rate and is individually treated and so on, and you can inflict minor sprains and upset stomachs or whatever on players with far more finesse. you'd need a few abstracted things like blood loss, pain, and system strain, but wounds would be the layer presented to the player to keep things intuitive that'd be essential for making combat more interesting (more granularity re: what attacks do, small scratches dont whittle away from an abstract 'health' pool) and medical skills more interesting (any idiot can put antibiotic gel and bandaids on the scratches, most people cant clean and stitch a gunshot wound) gently caress i need to get around to doing the mars roguelike i've wanted to do for years
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May 24, 2017 21:11
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Dirk the Average posted:The best way to do it I think is to make a varied diet a buff instead of a debuff. Make the player actively want to seek out different types of food for a bonus of some sort, whether that be a morale bonus, a skill learning bonus, or something else entirely. Chasing a buff feels better than staving off a debuff even if the math works out to be almost the same in the end. sorta agreed? i think instead of just eating a varied diet giving you a buff, it should be more that well cooked stuff gives a morale bonus so if you're a good cook and cook a variety of food you're going to be way happier than the idiot rotating biscuits, bread, brioche, hardtack, etc. then you get rewarded for putting in the work, while being able to cheese the drawback. and there can even be foods that are a bit more resistant to the morale penalty - if you make a loving baller prime rib, you wouldn't have any problem eating it 4-5 days in a row, while plain meat on a stick would be groady but cooking has always been kinda hampered by the rigidity of the crafting system, since simple things like 'meat on stick' or 'meat on stick with salt' or 'meat on stick with wild spices' or 'meat on stick with salt and wild spices' all need to be their own recipe with their own items and their own line in the crafting menu and clutter loving galore
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May 24, 2017 21:16
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Slime posted:Granade is basically the worst thing to happen to this game and the day the spot of lead passed over to him was the day the game started a downward slide. Wasn't it him who rolled back the irratating vehicle realism addition which included gearing systems and caused cars to have a max speed of 40Km/h and burn through 60L in 2 screen widths.
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May 24, 2017 22:10
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mormonpartyboat posted:i've always loved the idea of a system that eschews hit points and treats injuries as completely independent things with their own penalties. twenty scratches for 2-3 hp each should not be the same as one good gutshot for 50 hp. then each wound has its own healing rate and is individually treated and so on, and you can inflict minor sprains and upset stomachs or whatever on players with far more finesse. you'd need a few abstracted things like blood loss, pain, and system strain, but wounds would be the layer presented to the player to keep things intuitive mormonpartyboat posted:almost every problem with the game comes from someone imagining what the game could be were it designed from the ground up to be a completely different game, and then thinking about what the simplest change would be to push it in that direction
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May 24, 2017 22:24
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yeah another problem is that c:dda is great for making you think "oh this game should be a completely different, better game"
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May 24, 2017 22:29
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Constipation: Dark Days Ahead 
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May 24, 2017 23:15
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I love the 'depth' of systems in C:DDA (or at least the promise of them) like the fact that tinkering with a mobile base can almost be its own game. The problem is people who doesn't realize that depth -can- be fun, and things that add complexity but neither FUN nor actual strategic depth (risk:reward, or a smart way to play, etc) need to be axed. I spent way too much time (both real-world time and in-game clock time) just managing food, even when I had plenty, becaue the timescale for the game is so hosed up. Spend a ton of time cooking, never parallelizing things / cooking in bulk like you easily could in real life, and then sleep only to be hungry again immediately. That said, games that give you about a half day's meat from an entire deer/etc are WAY too common.
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Jun 1, 2017 18:56
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me, circa 10,000 BC: hunting is op, god plz nerf god: no dda devs, tyool 2017: yes Coolguye fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 18:59
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Fayk posted:That said, games that give you about a half day's meat from an entire deer/etc are WAY too common. This is always the funny thing . We want to be ~*~HYPER REALISTIC~*~ so we do the-wait a minute this realism makes the game too easy we need to restrict it arbitrarily. Other things include car batteries that can't handle the radio being turned on, not being able to make gunpowder, literally not getting any meat from squirrels, apparently needing to eat like 4k calories a day...
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Jun 1, 2017 19:01
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the caloric intake of your duder makes some sense i feel, since the presumption is that you're going to be very active most of the time. even if you spend all day cooking and crafting, your character would use a ton of calories just puttering around. a large part of the problem is that the game doesn't have a concept of calories burned vs consumed, so you get hungry cooking exactly as quickly as you would cutting a filthy ichor-splattered swath through a home improvement superstore, which feels weird and bad. that would actually be one of the ways to add flavor to the nutrition in this game, if fighting and stuff literally burned more calories than driving or sleeping. that said, if you want to do something like that you're going to need to overhaul everything and change nutrition values to the number of calories they actually provide, which would be a humongous project and obviously nerf the hell out of the current meta where a V8 provides more fullness than a loving cheese pizza.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:08
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Wait is that how it works? drat, been chowing on pizza on my drive to work for nothing. Shoulda had a V8
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Jun 1, 2017 19:17
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Coolguye posted:the caloric intake of your duder makes some sense i feel, since the presumption is that you're going to be very active most of the time. even if you spend all day cooking and crafting, your character would use a ton of calories just puttering around. a large part of the problem is that the game doesn't have a concept of calories burned vs consumed, so you get hungry cooking exactly as quickly as you would cutting a filthy ichor-splattered swath through a home improvement superstore, which feels weird and bad. that would actually be one of the ways to add flavor to the nutrition in this game, if fighting and stuff literally burned more calories than driving or sleeping. All true. And yeah, on some days you probably DO burn a crazy number of calories, but on those days you stay indoors reading all day, maybe not so much. I bet if they tried to implement a 'burn rate' mechanic they'd gently caress it up at first by not giving you any kind of buffer (ie, bodyfat or otherwise) so the first time you try to do something like clear a square of rubble your character loses five pounds and falls over after being locked into it for two hours. DEAD OF MALNUTRITION. Cooking needs to be faster in general. Right now the recipe system seems super rigid (ie, each variant ingredient has to be specified, rather than <breadlike item> <Cruciferous vegetable>, etc) in ingredients. Some randomly scale decently (never well enough) when you make multiples, adding only 50% more time, others just outright double. What. Book reading is amazingly good, but man, I can't imagine trying to learn most skills through usage in the game. It's so slow/(resource)expensive for most things. Construction times are pretty gross, too. Making them a little too fast (The option to scale them by season time or whatever drops them hugely!) is maybe 'too good' but it's certainly more fun. Making a small fence shouldn't take a 1/4 year. Edit: Funny thing about V8 is that I've never had a game where I found all the right seeds to make them, since it's such a strict recipe. A dozen veggies basically but lacked one every time.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:20
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yeah it's hilarious that i get more excited about parks in DDA than grocery stores, because on a coin flip's chance there will be like 5+ V8s in the vending machines around the park and i can just buy multiple days worth of never-spoiling fresh food for a couple of dollars on a cash card or a couple of punches with my fist
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Jun 1, 2017 19:21
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Fayk posted:Cooking needs to be faster in general. This is true, but the real answer is way more work than the quick answer of reducing crafting time on food. In reality you can say leave something simmer for half an hour while you go read a book or something. In a video game crafting system that makes time a thing you have to manage you usually have to sit there the whole half an hour and literally watch a pot boil. personally i'd say that it's not worth the time and cooking recipes should just have their time slashed As for the problem of being able to master skills by reading books, I think the book learning system needs a complete revamp and make books act as a learning multiplier, or maybe a skill boost. Have an electronics book that right now would boost your skill to 3? Get a slight boost to electronics recipes and you also learn it a bit faster until you hit level 3 at which point the book becomes pretty useless because you already know everything in it. Also, reward the player for making different things to learn a new skill rank. NOT reducing their skill gain for making the same thing again. A bonus over what you currently get, especially if you memorize a recipe while making it from a book. Slime fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 20:16
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Are there tile sets yet? Sorry, for as old as I am this is weird, but I have never been able to appreciate ASCII.
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Jun 1, 2017 20:45
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ZombieLenin posted:Are there tile sets yet? Sorry, for as old as I am this is weird, but I have never been able to appreciate ASCII. There have been tilesets for ages.
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Jun 1, 2017 20:58
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hell a tileset is the default if you download the experimental
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Jun 1, 2017 21:10
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retrodays owns
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Jun 1, 2017 21:16
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It really compares poorly with Unreal World, where killing a moose presents a massive immediate logistical challenge in how the hell you're going to get use out of that much leather and meat before it starts spoiling but if you do manage to get it all smoking and tanning before rot sets in you've got enough food for a few months and enough material for an outfit. It's a real sense of accomplishment. But on the other hand every time I download the latest experimental after ignoring the game for six months I'm surprised that medical supplies provide instant healing and untended injuries can be completely healed in a night's sleep, two at the most, compared to Unreal World where a bad cut can take weeks to heal and is very likely to go bad if you don't keep it clean and bandaged, so maybe it's for the best that the devs don't start taking cues from Finland.
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Jun 2, 2017 02:28
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Coolguye posted:yeah it's hilarious that i get more excited about parks in DDA than grocery stores, because on a coin flip's chance there will be like 5+ V8s in the vending machines around the park and i can just buy multiple days worth of never-spoiling fresh food for a couple of dollars on a cash card Cash should be an abstract number that you can use on whatever (vending machines). If nothing else just collapse all the loving cash cards into 'a bundle of cash cards worth X'.
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Jun 2, 2017 05:20
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Slime posted:This is true, but the real answer is way more work than the quick answer of reducing crafting time on food. In reality you can say leave something simmer for half an hour while you go read a book or something. In a video game crafting system that makes time a thing you have to manage you usually have to sit there the whole half an hour and literally watch a pot boil. UnrealWorld has a 90% complete mechanic on this where you throw meat on a fire and the game tells you it's cooked/burning/utterly hosed. I say 90% because it won't give you a UI 'are you sure you want to ignore that?' prompt.
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Jun 2, 2017 05:27
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goatsestretchgoals posted:Cash should be an abstract number that you can use on whatever (vending machines). If nothing else just collapse all the loving cash cards into 'a bundle of cash cards worth X'. you can use an ATM to transfer all credits to a single card easy enough
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Jun 2, 2017 05:28
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Shalebridge Cradle posted:you can use an ATM to transfer all credits to a single card easy enough gonna call out the first 5 words of your sentence e: sorry about being a dick, ive done that and had to store tens if not hundreds of cash cards in some cargo space i rarely used because gently caress scrolling past a bunch of $0.05 irl, a person would have wrapped a rubber band/hair tie/whatever around them and treated them as a single unit until they encountered an atm that still had an internet connection (lol) goatsestretchgoals fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 05:30
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Shalebridge Cradle posted:you can use an ATM to transfer all credits to a single card easy enough ah yes, the "dumb and bad thing is mitigated by a worse thing" meme
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Jun 2, 2017 05:35
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mormonpartyboat posted:ah yes, the "dumb and bad thing is mitigated by a worse thing" meme Your not going to find me defending the devs of this game i was just trying to be helpful cause I disliked the same thing
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Jun 2, 2017 05:42
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I haven't kept up with this thing for a while. My last copy was downloaded sometime last year, should I just go with that for my CDDA fix or has anything particularly game-changing been introduced?
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Jun 10, 2017 10:35
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Lots of little changes, mostly; I enjoyed updating my year-old copy, but that's mostly because the auto-updater that's available is loving awesome and can be configured to automatically deal with backups as well as basically patching in updates so that your save (usually) doesn't break. Should be this thing here: https://github.com/remyroy/CDDA-Game-Launcher/releases
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Jun 10, 2017 11:14
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Extremely dissapointed with one of the latest changes, needing painkillers to install bionics. The idea itself is kind of cool, except you need to take so many painkillers that you will OD and die. Seriously, I savescummed to test it -- you have to take the exact number of oxycodones that kills you, to install a bionic Maybe it scales based on your first aid / electronics skill?
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Jul 23, 2017 22:59
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Kayle7 posted:Seriously, I savescummed to test it -- you have to take the exact number of oxycodones that kills you, to install a bionic This is possibly the individual most C:DDA thing I've ever read. This devteam, holy poo poo
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Jul 23, 2017 23:03
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Angry Diplomat posted:This is possibly the individual most C:DDA thing I've ever read. This devteam, holy poo poo If it is fun we must destroy it
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Jul 23, 2017 23:44
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Someone tried to make it an optional mod but I'll give you 3 guesses who vetoed it.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:57
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quote:No rationale other than people expressing dislike provided. lmao
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Jul 24, 2017 00:23
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Most of the latest changes have all been about changing the ammo drop tables and other bullshit. Data tweaks instead of adding anything in new with a sense of purpose. The bionics thing is an unfortunate exception.
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Jul 24, 2017 01:08
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When is he going to go back on vacation
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Jul 24, 2017 01:18
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It would be cool if this thread literally ever talked about anything but changes you don't like.
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Jul 24, 2017 01:21
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After like 3 people wrote multi-paragraph arguments about why it should go
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