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CharlestheHammer posted:Literally no one important cares about "how it makes them look" whatever the gently caress that means. it means any subversion from the original japanese is an affront to god and man, and must be griped about i even agree that diaboromon is stupid sounding but i def don't think it makes them look bad or whatever, just a wonky localization in a series full of wonky localizations
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May 27, 2017 04:42
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TFRazorsaw posted:I don't really much care for dub names that mangle foreign words. It's not a good look. That's some hilariously bad cultural appropriation crying there. Spanish does not have sole possession of the word Diablo. The word "diabolos" goes back to Ancient Greek, and French (diabolique) and Latin language have both derived words from it as has English. What do you think the root of the English word "diabolical" is? Edir: the word Diablo is itself "mangling a foreign word" Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 04:46 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 04:43
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"Hey, let's mangle the pronunciation of words from existing languages for the same of a censorship dodge we've already rendered invalid with previous decisions that already reference religion. That's totally not insulting to our views' intelligence." That's it. That's basically the sum of my issue with it. It's a relatively minor issue with the dub, but it's still annoying, and Bandai's complete inconsistency with it filling the english version an increasing number of nonsense words just lends to how sloppy the localization for this franchise is in general. You have "Kerpymon" next to "Ophanimon" and "Seraphimon" and "Diaboromon" in the same movie as "Angemon", and I'm just like? How clever, you managed to *partially* censor the religious references, which renders the whole enterprise pointless. The weird thing is I'd be much less annoyed by it if they were at least consistent about it but they aren't. Craptacular! posted:That's some hilariously bad cultural appropriation crying there. Spanish does not have sole possession of the word Diablo. The word "diabolos" goes back to Ancient Greek, and French (diabolique) and Latin language have both derived words from it as has English. What do you think the root of the English word "diabolical" is? There's the whole nature of etymology, and then there's "hey, let's change this either because of incompetence or censorship we've already rendered invalid". Let's not pretend that the likes of "Diaboromon" is an example of language changing naturally. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 04:50 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 04:47
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mandatory lesbian posted:i even agree that diaboromon is stupid sounding
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May 27, 2017 05:10
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mandatory lesbian posted:it means any subversion from the original japanese is an affront to god and man, and must be griped about That's a gross mis-characterization of me, I think. If you want a positive example of a change for the sake of content, look at Data Squad - there was no way the network was going to let them put BomberNanimon on the air, so when they made "Citramon" they changed it to something that was fun, referential of the director's previous work, and made the best of a lovely situation. Changes aren't bad, it's the sloppy changes that add up to nothing and are unnecessary that I take issue with. The Tri. dub certainly has its liberties and changes as well, but it's faithful to the original version of the movie and manages to strike a good balance between localization and accuracy. That's the kind of localization Digimon has been lacking before now.
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May 27, 2017 05:15
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I think what he's saying is, "that you can invoke devils [Devimon] but not Satan [Diaboromon] is contradictory and stupid", which, sure. But also among Americans are a very vocal minority who think Satan uses the media to steal their children's brains, and their arguments weren't exactly rational either.
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May 27, 2017 05:23
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PMush Perfect posted:Philistines, all of you. i'm sorry man, i have to speak the truths i feel TFRazorsaw posted:That's a gross mis-characterization of me, I think. If you want a positive example of a change for the sake of content, look at Data Squad - there was no way the network was going to let them put BomberNanimon on the air, so when they made "Citramon" they changed it to something that was fun, referential of the director's previous work, and made the best of a lovely situation. you're right, i'm sorry. i was projecting attitudes i've seen in this series fandom for decades now onto you and that was unfair of me
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May 27, 2017 05:26
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You can invoke devils, but not Satan. But you can reference another version of Satan elsewhere. And then you might change Satan's name to something else in another game or video game later. Also you can name two out of three angels accurately but the third one's name has to be nonsense. It's not just that its censorship, it's that it's *bad* localization and the opposite of internally consistent.
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May 27, 2017 05:30
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You remember what it was like when it got brought over here right? Frankly it's amazing season 1 is as uncensored as it is. Besides all the nude kid stuff and the creepy poo poo about some gently caress off picking up Sora and Mimi who are literal children. I don't think anyone is crying over that censorship. Still, my point. My point is, 90s culture in America was a loving nightmare land for the longest time. Digimon came out around the time it finally started to lax up, but it still had its weird hang ups. Digimon mostly benefited from not being as big as Pokemon, so they were able to get away with a lot more poo poo than Pokemon ever could have. Like don't forget, just 4 years prior to Digimon, Spider-Man was not allowed to disturb pigeons nor punch anyone ever. Also the whole Die thing that went on for loving ever. Even after Digimon, there were still some weird censorship hang ups. In Samurai Jack, you could say die as much as you wanted, but you try and say Soul and you're poo poo out of luck
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May 27, 2017 05:38
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I understand the reasons for why it happened. Again, the issue is partly that they were bad at it, and prioritized it in in weird ways. You got stuff like Angemon and Devimon, but Diablomon and Cherubimon are somehow not kosher? There's no rhyme or reason for what is and isn't objectionable, either for monster names or for the plot. Gotsumon and Pumpkinmon get sent to Myotismon's dungeon, but less than a dozen episodes later Wizardmon is flat out dead. And that's not even getting into the lull destruction because lol, what is five seconds of silence and atmosphere. There's also stuff like inventing imaginary little brothers for Mimi, giving Izzy an obsession with aliens that disappears within five episodes, and forced jokes that end up making multiple characters look bad and completely change the merits of entire scenes. I'm not saying you can't find charm in it. I'm not saying you can't like it or have nostalgia for it. But they're relics of another time, and still full of problems even for their day. On a technical level, they weren't good dubs.
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May 27, 2017 05:46
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TFRazorsaw posted:There's no rhyme or reason for what is and isn't objectionable, either for monster names or for the plot.
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May 27, 2017 05:47
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PMush Perfect posted:You're blaming Digimon for the 90s. I don't know where you're getting that. Wanting to tone down things or avoid religious backlash is one thing, doing it badly without any concern for consistency is another. Like, say what you will about the YuGiOh dubs, 4Kids at least seemed to have an idea of what kind of mood and content they wanted the show to have and stuck to it, even if their work was still riddled with technical errors.
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May 27, 2017 05:53
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The thing is kids don't care about that consistency, hell I don't care about it It's literally meaningless.
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May 27, 2017 05:54
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"People will eat up whatever you force out" is pretty weak justification. It goes beyond stupid monster names, like I said, and also affected the writing.
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May 27, 2017 05:59
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No my point was it has no effect on anything and it's not worth caring about. You are making this a much bigger deal of it then it is.
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May 27, 2017 06:15
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I don't think wanting the production to not be a sloppy mess of inconsistent terminology, scatterbrained tone, and character warping idiocy is stuff "not worth caring about", but whatever floats your boat, dude.
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May 27, 2017 06:23
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I'm just seeing this discussion and thinking of all the times people insist on Gojira, or Kuririn, or other names changed up in romanization. Then again, Godzilla has that same inconsistency with the amazingly named Destoroyah.
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May 27, 2017 06:27
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TFRazorsaw posted:I don't think wanting the production to not be a sloppy mess of inconsistent terminology, scatterbrained tone, and character warping idiocy is stuff "not worth caring about", but whatever floats your boat, dude. Yeah names are important to the plot and tone correct. This in no way just you being dramatic.
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May 27, 2017 06:38
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It's almost like I talked about multiple things. I mentioned the stuff that affects the plot and tone as well. The complete lack of consistency making things sloppy is an issue that contributes to the dub's myriad problems. And even then, wanting some level of consistency in a franchise, or even episode to episode sometimes, doesn't seem like it's asking too much. What if Pokemon changed half of its critters' names with every game? Like, not just changing them to begin with, "Charizard" is "Charizard" in one in one incarnation and he's "Flamedragon" in another? And what changes they do make have some reasoning and consistency behind them that the Digimon dub altogether lacks. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 06:45 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 06:41
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TFRazorsaw posted:Like, not just changing them to begin with, "Charizard" is "Charizard" in one in one incarnation and he's "Flamedragon" in another?
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May 27, 2017 06:52
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CharlestheHammer posted:The thing is kids don't care about that consistency, hell I don't care about it I'm not this cynical, but also not nearly as stickler for details as TFR. Burkion and I post frequently in both here and the toku threads, and so at least one person will get what I'm talking about, but I think back to how Power Rangers in Space/Lost Galaxy had heightened drama moments and a continuous narrative that was trying to be serious, but still had to make nice with the censors. This means phrases like "they would destroy me if they knew I was here" which seem so disconnected from reality when they come out of an actor who is playing a humanoid. I think the reality is US kids programming can have consistency, though it also has to cater to so many interests that the flaws still crack through. I can blame the Digimon dub for it's dumb jokes and inconsistencies, but hitting it because of the cultural minutiae surrounding it's market isn't quite fair.
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May 27, 2017 07:07
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The Bee posted:I'm just seeing this discussion and thinking of all the times people insist on Gojira, or Kuririn, or other names changed up in romanization. Then again, Godzilla has that same inconsistency with the amazingly named Destoroyah. Anyone who just always calls Godzilla Gojira in English is an awful person who deserves all the mockery they get. It is only appropriate to use the word Gojira if you speak English if you are referring to the original 1954 film title and some times monster. Otherwise gently caress you, Toho came up with Godzilla, that is his English name. Gigantis is acceptable however
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May 27, 2017 07:16
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Nerds are weird and pedantic, news at 11.
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May 27, 2017 07:19
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PMush Perfect posted:Nerds are weird and pedantic, news at 11. I've noticed it more in this thread than any other. Of course I like the dub names and think they're better for the most part. I don't hear nearly as much whining from fans about translations from say Pokemon fans either. Tribladeofchaos fucked around with this message at 10:34 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 08:50
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https://twitter.com/Digisoulweb/status/868371067777273856 Gatomon to Angewomon is another
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May 27, 2017 13:47
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Diaboromon is a weird hill to die on because it's not even necessarily a censorship deal rather than a weird translation like Goburimon or SlushAngemon
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May 27, 2017 15:07
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TFRazorsaw posted:What if Pokemon changed half of its critters' names with every game? Like, not just changing them to begin with, "Charizard" is "Charizard" in one incarnation and he's "Flamedragon" in another? And what changes they do make have some reasoning and consistency behind them that the Digimon dub altogether lacks. Here's the thing: Pokémon's localization come primarily from Nintendo, which has known for consistent localization barring stuff like Peach being called Princess Toadstool originally and even that was reconciled as her full name being Princess Peach Toadstool though her last name hasn't been used since SM64. I say primarily since the Pokémon Company didn't when the franchise started so while they might be involved in the process now, it's likely still the work of Nintendo for the most part. With Digimon however, you've got names coming from not only Bandai of Japan but also Bandai of Asia who have their own localizations. This problem is only further compounded by another issue that needs to be remembered: G-SANtos posted:I just want to add that the name may have been chosen by people who don't speak English and may have used general romanization rules without knowing how it sounds like to an English-speaker, or not caring how it sounds in English. Some time ago, when I was researching the transliteration of Russian to Japanese, for Niko's article, I run into a text that was talking about the large use of English by Japanese people, and it mentioned some words having a different meaning of what they have in actual English. If I remember correctly, they use "stove" to refer to an oven. I think the article said something about possible confusion by American people or something, but I definitely remember that the article quoted a linguist saying "We don't care what Americans think of that" or "It doesn't matter what Americans think". Without a consistent team for localization, you cannot expect a consistent localization. It's like how Tokyopop and Kodansha's localizations of Tokyo Mew Mew were very different from each other apart from some shared names like "Mint", "Lettuce", "Pudding", and "Kish" for Minto, Retasu, Bu-Ling, and Quiche respectively. Chimera-gui fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 19:23
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I can understand that so far as how the Japanese version can't typically manage consistent romanizations, but in the case of the dub, these are people who ARE fluent in English who should be responsible for that kind of thing. And even then, how hard is it to keep things consistent when stuff like "Crusadermon" in Frontier and "LoadKnightmon" in Savers are years apart? And you bring up "different teams"; there was still stuff that came from the same team working on the same shows, like Halsemon and MetalGarurumon's attack names changing every time they're used, plot holes like Mimi's little brother and Matt and T.K. being half brothers, and so on. You can't blame that on a compartmentalized and distanced production when it's the same show runner with the same writers. It's shoddy and unprofessional. And "Diaboromon" isn't a hill to die on so much as he is just another bullet point in a long example of why the english version of Digimon isn't a very consistent or good production.
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May 27, 2017 20:44
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See you keep getting caught up on this point. This quantifiable subjective Good Quality. Digimon's dub was very, very good for the time it was made. There are other dubs, the Pokemon dub, that were far worse. It wasn't perfect, but it was Good. At least I believe it was. You do not. You believing it doesn't make it a fact and you don't need to keep harping on it like it is a fact though. We're not wrong for thinking it was good, nor are you wrong for thinking it wasn't. I believe it was because I know what else was happening at the time and what a breath of fresh air it could be.
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May 27, 2017 20:49
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Dude, you're the who gave me a hard time for not preferring Steve Blum's Guilmon to Masako Nozawa's several months ago. I don't think either of us are blameless in that regard. There's been a lot I've been hasty on regarding this thread, been misinformed on, or flat out wrong about (the matter of 02 and ratings comes to mind) and I both acknowledge and apologize for those things, but this is a discussion - if someone is gonna raise a point of praise, raising a counterpoint is equally valid. I think my opinions are valid, and I'm going to continue arguing that they're justified. I'm not stating this as a fact, but as long as people keep telling me I'm being "pedantic" or "weird", or say that I hate "changes for the sake of changes" when there are changes the dub has made I've defended, it's not going to encourage me to be less blunt or direct about it.
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May 27, 2017 20:56
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TFRazorsaw posted:I can understand that so far as how the Japanese version can't typically manage consistent romanizations, but in the case of the dub, these are people who ARE fluent in English who should be responsible for that kind of thing. And even then, how hard is it to keep things consistent when stuff like "Crusadermon" in Frontier and "LoadKnightmon" in Savers are years apart? And you bring up "different teams"; there was still stuff that came from the same team working on the same shows, like Halsemon and MetalGarurumon's attack names changing every time they're used, plot holes like Mimi's little brother and Matt and T.K. being half brothers, and so on. You can't blame that on a compartmentalized and distanced production when it's the same show runner with the same writers. Dude Diaboromon is a cool name and besides the original digimon dub was one of the only ones for it's time to actually say things took place in Japan. And even Japan can't keep their official names straight, take a look at the names for gundam characters for example. They change every other year and make less and less sense.
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May 27, 2017 21:04
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As I stated already, I don't really consider inconsistent romanizations by Japanese developers on the same level as Bandai of America and Saban being unable to keep things consistent in their own language, especially given what Chimera already stated about the level of english fluency in Japan. Acknowledging it took place in Japan is like, bare minimum, and even then, they spent 13 episodes of the Adventure dub trying to pretend it wasn't before realizing it was a lost cause. And even then, they still did stuff like making up imaginary relatives and implying Yamato and Takeru had different dads. Anyway, in actual news, the Digimon Adventure tri. stage play is going to have a returning Digimon villain, played onstage by this fellow who goes by the stage name Oreno Graffiti:  Who's he playing, you ask? One of the humanoid villains, obviously. Devimon? Piemon? Vamdemon perhaps? Nope.  Get ready for uncomfortably attractive Etemon, folks.
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May 27, 2017 21:15
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what's uncomfortable about the attraction, tfr
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May 27, 2017 21:20
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That he's Etemon of all people, for one, and the fact that he's a weird monkey man who wears an uncomfortably tight monkey costume, played by an actually attractive actor. also, come on, I'm trying to make a joke ;-;
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May 27, 2017 21:22
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i know, i'm just razzing ya, but also bring on hot etemon
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May 27, 2017 21:24
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well, okay then. I'm also wondering what plot involving Etemon could justify Omegamon's presence of all Digimon, considering we know he's in there from the poster. Seems like a bit of power disparity there.
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May 27, 2017 21:27
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The problem is that it's not BoA or Saban making the calls 75% of the time (and I'm actually being generous by giving them 25% of the decision making control), it's BoJ and Toei who dictate just about everything in localization just as the latter dictated what Sentai series were used for Power Rangers prior to Megaforce (though Toei may still dictate what Sentai series Saban is allowed to use).
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May 27, 2017 22:01
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I think both Toei and Saban expected Saban to MMPR up Digimon and invent a whole new backstory out of the scraps, and as circumstances continue you can hear the Saban people throwing ideas away that they can't pretend anymore. They did a lot of "American Kids Show Must Take Place In America", until it completely contradicted what was seen onscreen and they shifted gears. If they had a complete series in the bag when they started this, it would have been more professional. Digimon was running on a much tighter turnaround than Super Sentai where they had a complete season and could decide what pieces to keep or change their mind about late season scripts midway through. In our modern age, I was watching Yuri On Ice dubbed with a delay of one or two weeks. That was effectively impossible in the 90s. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 22:13 on May 27, 2017 |
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May 27, 2017 22:10
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Yeah, and Toei is notoriously bad regarding the management of their overseas properties. They're the ones that courted 4Kids for One Piece, they still believe their kids shows need to be heavily edited in 20freaking17, and they still choose to work with questionable partners. They really need a better department for managing localization and western media in GENERAL. Even then, while I can accept that being the case for stuff like Data Squad, the producers for the first two seasons have talked about changes they made (Frontier's dub director talked about how she changed KaiserLeomon to JaegerLoewemon because "Kaiser sounds like the name of a bad guy", Salamon is named after the Adventure dub's showrunner's cat, etc.) of their own volition, so I doubt every terrible change is Toei or Bandai's fault.
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May 27, 2017 22:12
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Kids shows often do still need to be heavily edited in 2017. Japan still has an 80s mentality on smoking, and religious moral guardians still exist.
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May 27, 2017 22:15
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