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Our most ""incompetent"" person at my last job wasn't that incompetent- our managers just sucked at delegating work appropriate to his experience level.
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May 28, 2017 20:09
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There are very few people who are going to be brilliant or incompetent in every possible team. Organizational structure and environment matter a lot.
ultrafilter fucked around with this message at 20:28 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 20:25
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Managers hire overqualified self-motivated engineers because they are incompetent or uninterested in managing and delegating work, ie doing their job. With multiple skills you can be an interchangeable "resource", slumming it in a new part of the codebase each sprint. Hiring an actual junior candidate (assuming intelligence and a will to learn + work) would require companies to have actual non-bullshit training and mentorship plans, and the company's return-on-investment will occur outside this quarter/month/sprint. Hiring specialists to do their specialities well in a team is impossible without clearly communicated long-term Product planning. Even then managers have to oversee non-standardized laborers who understand their (high but precarious) economic value, and aren't willing to ruin their credibility + career supporting a stupid technical idea or burning out to get Product a bonus.
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May 28, 2017 22:53
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Which is why I taught myself enough of the Web stack and D3.js that I could apply without a JR qualifier. It took months and was self-funded on credit cards living in a low CoL area, because NYC ain't got time for people with "potential". As much as goons love to hate forcing programming classes on schoolkids, it's a stopgap solution for not forcing 22 year olds with loans to eat another $10k-$30k on a bootcamp because they're "unskilled for modern jobs". Of course non-coding jobs could be the answer, but I don't know of any as attainable and lucrative for the demographic that picks programming over coffeeshops / gig economy apps / fast food. I'm seeing it everywhere in Brooklyn, basically everyone I meet that could be described as a self-sufficient adult has 1. A job requiring exclusive and expensive education, 2. A trust fund, or 3. Is doing something tech-related. This poo poo we're in shouldn't be a requirement for not having 3 roommates or saving for a mortgage 
Analytic Engine fucked around with this message at 23:16 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 23:09
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:I spent my first 3-4 years post-college working on ERP systems and a staggering number of engineer-developed spreadsheets for a chemical manufacturer. It wasn't a great experience, but I was also very inexperienced and had no good technical mentorship. The person I was hired under didn't even believe in source control, so we just... didn't. I set up SVN for myself. I just picked up my first full time job out of college and its in the materials manufacturing industry. The guy I'm working under also doesn't believe in source control (too complicated and what if other engineers need to use it), there is no sense of separation between development and production environments (just make a backup before you change something), and yeah no potential for actual technical mentorship. The pay is fantastic and I have enjoyable work to do. Would you mind elaborating on what the rest of your experience was like in that environment? We've had some chats about modernizing stuff and it seems like they're intending to hire more CS people, but I'm feeling stuck between wanting to push for doing things better at the risk of dealing with the fallout or just staying status quo until I can find somewhere else to go work. I'm worried that if I do the later then I'll be missing out on opportunities to expand my resume while I'm here though.
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May 29, 2017 01:02
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Portland Sucks posted:I just picked up my first full time job out of college and its in the materials manufacturing industry. The guy I'm working under also doesn't believe in source control (too complicated and what if other engineers need to use it), there is no sense of separation between development and production environments (just make a backup before you change something), and yeah no potential for actual technical mentorship. The pay is fantastic and I have enjoyable work to do. Changing that environment is not something you're going to be able to do unless you spend a very long time in that job.
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May 29, 2017 02:02
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leper khan posted:Changing that environment is not something you're going to be able to do unless you spend a very long time in that job. You're right. This industry has the expectation that new hires will be there for 20+ years and they're already acting like I'm going to be long term without asking me what my plans are. We have plans of expanding out the department with a few more CS guys though. Ethically, I feel like initiating new stuff if I don't intend to be around for a long time is kinda weird, but I know they're asking me to do it at the same time. I'm fresh out of college and in a weird loving position.
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May 29, 2017 04:20
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One of the things the old laggard companies will have to start understanding is that few good folks specifically in tech will stay around 6+ years without a really compelling career path forward with tons of advancement because most decent people know what's going on and have professional networks pulling them away. But honestly, I got that same attitude around me in government. In my exit day group meeting (they're batched together) back in 2006, I was the only one quitting in the entire room of 40+ - everyone else was retiring and literally into their 70s or were transferring to other sites and it was just a formality to "exit."
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May 29, 2017 05:09
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necrobobsledder posted:Defense contractors, man. That's all I can say.
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May 29, 2017 05:24
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Portland Sucks posted:You're right. This industry has the expectation that new hires will be there for 20+ years... Really?? Do they have an individual contributor career track that goes all the way up?
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May 29, 2017 06:10
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necrobobsledder posted:In my exit day group meeting (they're batched together) back in 2006, I was the only one quitting in the entire room of 40+ - everyone else was retiring and literally into their 70s or were transferring to other sites and it was just a formality to "exit." This seems really strange, they do exit interviews and offboarding in a big batch, like they do new hire orientation?
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May 29, 2017 06:11
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lifg posted:Really?? Do they have an individual contributor career track that goes all the way up? Honestly I'm not too sure what career progression looks like. It's a very old, very big (num employees and net worth) company in the metal industry. Everyone here (hyperbole a bit but not much) has been here for 20+, and there is a lot of company loyalty/family ideology that just doesn't resonate with me - just a generational thing I guess. There is awareness on some levels I've run into that they need to start modernizing, but it doesn't exist on my level yet in any real way.
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May 29, 2017 06:56
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Portland Sucks posted:Honestly I'm not too sure what career progression looks like. It's a very old, very big (num employees and net worth) company in the metal industry. Everyone here (hyperbole a bit but not much) has been here for 20+, and there is a lot of company loyalty/family ideology that just doesn't resonate with me - just a generational thing I guess. There is awareness on some levels I've run into that they need to start modernizing, but it doesn't exist on my level yet in any real way. I'd put my money on any career progression there involving a transition into management, that is a theme that I see among older, non-technical people. I regularly get allegedly wise words from my parents' generation that I'll eventually stop wanting to solve engineering challenges and want to start solving interpersonal ones instead. None of them are or were engineers though, and I've worked with people in their late 60s who are utterly uninterested in moving from engineering to anything else. I think it's partly generational and partly the nature of our field. Earlier generations had the possibility of a pension and job security, and more recent generations bought into that too, but when people my age see a few family members get forced out early and end up with half or a quarter of the money they planned on having for retirement, and don't even have the illusion of a pension on the table, we wise up and treat the jobs like the temporary business relationships they tend to be. We also have a transferable, in-demand skill with basically no ceiling (more to learn than we ever will), compared to the lifers who are only valuable at a given company because they know that company intimately. There's just no advantage in sticking around unless they do what the big four do: slap on enormous golden handcuffs.
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May 29, 2017 07:39
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Che Delilas posted:I'd put my money on any career progression there involving a transition into management, that is a theme that I see among older, non-technical people. I regularly get allegedly wise words from my parents' generation that I'll eventually stop wanting to solve engineering challenges and want to start solving interpersonal ones instead. None of them are or were engineers though, and I've worked with people in their late 60s who are utterly uninterested in moving from engineering to anything else. That makes sense and is probably true for the most part company wide, but our department is a R&D department that's composed of engineers, scientists, and lab techs. We have one manager and everything else is flat. Most of the senior researchers are all lifers. I do know that there is a lot of lateral movement throughout the company. Moving from production to research to systems etc... Either way, I know I'm not gonna be a lifer so it's a weird boat to be in.
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May 29, 2017 08:04
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I've got another interview-type-thing later this week, and it's with someone on the engineering team. I wanna make sure I uncover as much unsavory things about the place as I can beforehand - the whole "you're interviewing them as much they're interviewing you" thing. I'm most concerned about work-life balance (remote/WFH policy and pager duty stuff), good development practices (can I do something interesting vs. being a Rails/Javascript monkey for the rest of my life), and how well the management side of things is (how are projects managed, is it a shitshow, who will my manager be/are they good to work with, how corporate/moronic is the place business-wise). I hope I'll be able to word these things well... Is it uncouth to ask about remote/WFH policies? At my current position, I tend to work from home 2 or 3 times a week (while being perfectly well productive, mind), and I'm fond of that setup. I feel like companies generally bristle at the thought of letting their employees do that, with some exceptions.
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May 30, 2017 14:53
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Pollyanna posted:Is it uncouth to ask about remote/WFH policies? Not at all. Ask now or you may be regretful and resentful later! I like to ask how a typical project gets planned, how they deploy code (kinda web-centric), what their test coverage is, how they decided to use their core technologies, and how long each of them has worked there. If everyone has worked there <2 years, that's a pretty good indicator that nobody wants to stick around imo.
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May 30, 2017 15:04
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Pollyanna posted:I've got another interview-type-thing later this week, and it's with someone on the engineering team. I wanna make sure I uncover as much unsavory things about the place as I can beforehand - the whole "you're interviewing them as much they're interviewing you" thing. I'm most concerned about work-life balance (remote/WFH policy and pager duty stuff), good development practices (can I do something interesting vs. being a Rails/Javascript monkey for the rest of my life), and how well the management side of things is (how are projects managed, is it a shitshow, who will my manager be/are they good to work with, how corporate/moronic is the place business-wise). I hope I'll be able to word these things well... Ask the interviewer the last time they took a vacation.
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May 30, 2017 15:12
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Pollyanna posted:Is it uncouth to ask about remote/WFH policies? Nope. But you'll get better answers if you ask rank-and-file people, the ones at your own position. Managers will probably give a slightly different answer. (Though I have a theory that it's a sign of a great workplace when programmers and managers give the same answers to quality of life questions.)
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May 30, 2017 17:03
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Paolomania posted:Work at a defense contractor got me a contact that lead to a gig at MIT that got Google recruiters in my mailbox; so ... they serve their purpose. Don't forget inflating industry salaries by soaking up talent.
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May 30, 2017 19:37
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kitten smoothie posted:This seems really strange, they do exit interviews and offboarding in a big batch, like they do new hire orientation?
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May 31, 2017 13:09
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I got an offer last week for what is, essentially, entry-level pay, despite my ten years of experience. I've been letting it hang, hoping to hear back about another job, where they said they'd get back to me "by end-of-day Friday or Tuesday." Meanwhile, the company with the offer called yesterday to see what I was thinking (and remind me they're waiting). Here we are, at the start of Wednesday, and I'm annoyed at the irony of me making one company wait while I wait for another company. I suppose I can try a counter-offer, to delay things another day? But then, if they flat-out refuse, I'm back to having to give them a yes or no, without knowing what the other company will do. Ugh.
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May 31, 2017 16:11
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CPColin posted:I got an offer last week for what is, essentially, entry-level pay, despite my ten years of experience. I've been letting it hang, hoping to hear back about another job, where they said they'd get back to me "by end-of-day Friday or Tuesday." Meanwhile, the company with the offer called yesterday to see what I was thinking (and remind me they're waiting). Here we are, at the start of Wednesday, and I'm annoyed at the irony of me making one company wait while I wait for another company. Try the counter offer, but if the pay isn't enough for you and they refuse to budge, I'd question whether it's worth it. Don't undervalue yourself.
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May 31, 2017 16:15
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CPColin posted:I got an offer last week for what is, essentially, entry-level pay, despite my ten years of experience. I've been letting it hang, hoping to hear back about another job, where they said they'd get back to me "by end-of-day Friday or Tuesday." Meanwhile, the company with the offer called yesterday to see what I was thinking (and remind me they're waiting). Here we are, at the start of Wednesday, and I'm annoyed at the irony of me making one company wait while I wait for another company. Yeah, I mean if the compensation is not what you want, don't take it unless you're either desperate for a job or it's something you're really, really interested in working on to the point where a pay cut would be worth it. I think it's fine to tell them that if the low-ball offer is the biggest problem.
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May 31, 2017 16:19
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Pollyanna posted:Try the counter offer, but if the pay isn't enough for you and they refuse to budge, I'd question whether it's worth it. Don't undervalue yourself. Always always ask for more money. Never take a job for not enough money (unless you are desperate, in which case it is enough money).
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May 31, 2017 16:20
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I've been unemployed since January, but I'm, miraculously, not yet desperate, so I sent a counter-offer. Now I need to figure out how to prod the other company, without having them come back with, "Well, you're #3 in line for two positions, so you'll just have to wait it out."
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May 31, 2017 16:30
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CPColin posted:I've been unemployed since January, but I'm, miraculously, not yet desperate, so I sent a counter-offer. Now I need to figure out how to prod the other company, without having them come back with, "Well, you're #3 in line for two positions, so you'll just have to wait it out." They're usually better than to state that explicitly. Something something awaiting approvals.
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May 31, 2017 17:08
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From one formerly-months-unemployed guy to another, don't take a job that's below your abilities - it will haunt you into your next job in terms of either pay, skills, etc. Only do it unless you're completely burned out or something and can't do much besides coast for like... 2 years.
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May 31, 2017 17:12
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Their response:quote:Our compensation practices are designed for fairness. The offer on the table is $24.25 per hour. Just rejected it. Was going to call them to do it, but gently caress it.
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May 31, 2017 17:38
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What's the job? If that's a 1099 rate that's abysmally low for computer touching.
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May 31, 2017 17:47
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Yeah, that's too low. Something like $45k yearly. Factoring in income tax, benefits payments, w/e - not a good salary. I question what they consider fair.
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May 31, 2017 17:47
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CPColin posted:Their response: Lol that's awful for any kind of SWE job. Like an entry level tech / support job maybe, but only outside a major city.
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May 31, 2017 17:54
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That's less than my starting salary was 10 years ago as a new grad with mediocre grades, no internships, and not living in SV. That doesn't sound like a company that is serious about software development so you're most likely dodging a bullet by rejecting the offer.
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May 31, 2017 18:27
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I never could have imagined a place that pays software engineers lower than the City of Asheville (one of the highest COL in NC but for non-retirees the lowest earnings in the entire state - wealthy retirees skew the numbers hard). Saw a rate of $60k / yr for an on-call operations engineer that maintains half their infrastructure, performs automatic software deployments for custom software, Windows desktop support, and a bunch more duties including racking servers.
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May 31, 2017 21:19
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mrmcd posted:Lol that's awful for any kind of SWE job. Like an entry level tech / support job maybe, but only outside a major city. That's insultingly low for anybody with any experience at all, isn't it? I mean like...anywhere.
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Jun 1, 2017 00:04
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That's insultingly low for anybody with any experience at all, isn't it? I mean like...anywhere. Just in the US pretty much. All other countries embrace relatively low tech wages. Hence the US stealing all the best and brightest.
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Jun 1, 2017 00:33
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Nah, that's low even by Canadian standards. As an entry level wage out of college it could be ok but for anyone with experience, it's low.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:00
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That's insultingly low for anybody with any experience at all, isn't it? I mean like...anywhere. That's what I made 17 years ago when I was entry level.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:03
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AskYourself posted:Nah, that's low even by Canadian standards. I started higher than that at my first job out of college away from the main markets with literally zero experience doing the job. I got hired as a web developer. My web development experience consisted entirely of a few static pages and poorly using a content management system. I had absolutely no idea how to do my job when I started it and made more than $45K. Well "no idea" is an exaggeration because I had a CS degree but still. That's just an unbelievably awful salary to offer a programmer with experience. Even a competent noob should make more than that.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:10
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Yeah I made $55k my very first job after college 12 years ago, and quit after like a year for +$20k.
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Jun 1, 2017 03:24
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CPColin posted:I've been unemployed since January, but I'm, miraculously, not yet desperate, so I sent a counter-offer. Now I need to figure out how to prod the other company, without having them come back with, "Well, you're #3 in line for two positions, so you'll just have to wait it out." Called it. They took the other two applicants.  Meanwhile, on my alma mater's jobs site:
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Jun 1, 2017 20:50
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