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Jim Lee worked on the Savage Land issues where Magneto kills Zaladane, although whether he had any influence over the plot or not is another matter. But yeah, when you read X-Men #1-3 you'll kinda see a big change, really.
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May 30, 2017 15:56
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irlZaphod posted:I haven't read Marvel Comics: The Untold Story I'm sure it's been mentioned a bunch in this thread, but that's a great book. The author's a cool guy too.
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May 30, 2017 18:03
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Marvel: Untold History is legit good. As far as I can remember, at the point of the X-Men in the early 90's it sounded like guys like Lee had all the pull over the writers, so much so that they would sometimes draw full issues and leave the writers to figure out dialog and plot afterwards. I don't know how true this is but I can sort of see it with the whole style over substance thing that the artists were pulling in the 90's .
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May 30, 2017 19:55
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It puzzles me when people frame the Claremont/Lee falling out as founded largely on whether or not Magneto was a villain, because Louise Simonson had already had him take a pretty dramatic (editorially mandated? I've heard different things) turn back towards perfidy in New Mutants. As in, he wraps his pupils up in a big ball of metal and gives a big campy monologue to Sebastian Shaw about he was bad all along, etc. etc. To my knowledge Simonson and Claremont were still cordial after that, and his relationship to Shooter was, as I understand it, strained all along.
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May 30, 2017 20:05
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Shooter was gone by then really, the X-Men editor at the time was Bob Harras. I don't think he had a huge shift in Simonson's New Mutants. He became frustrated because they continually disobeyed him (because the book would have been boring). He felt responsible for Cypher's death, and at the same time the X-Men themselves "died". He had started down a path (with Storm's blessing) where he was involved with the Hellfire Club, but the New Mutants never really trusted him because of it. I'm sure a lot of this was discussed with Claremont. Simonson ended up having the same problems Claremont did when Liefeld came on the book and wanted to introduce a bunch of new and totally xxxxxtreme things, and just sort of gradually took over. e: btw the Claremont/Lee falling out wasn't just over Magneto, and the "falling out" was more between Claremont and Harras. I don't think he wanted to bring Professor X back into the book either. It was a number of factors, but really Claremont felt frustrated that Harras wanted to run with all of Lee's ideas for the bookk. e2: This page is amazing. 
irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 22:28 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 22:09
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irlZaphod posted:I don't think he had a huge shift in Simonson's New Mutants. He became frustrated because they continually disobeyed him (because the book would have been boring). He felt responsible for Cypher's death, and at the same time the X-Men themselves "died". He had started down a path (with Storm's blessing) where he was involved with the Hellfire Club, but the New Mutants never really trusted him because of it. I'm sure a lot of this was discussed with Claremont. Simonson ended up having the same problems Claremont did when Liefeld came on the book and wanted to introduce a bunch of new and totally xxxxxtreme things, and just sort of gradually took over. In fact, I think Magneto joining the Hellfire Club was one of the last things Claremont did before he handed New Mutants over to Simonson (she took over either just before FotM or in time to start it). Edit: There's this stereotype around how the original Image guys managed to become fabulously wealthy through their comics work; I was under the impression that, even when comics were huge in the early 90s, if you had enough regular work, it would give you enough to live on but you wouldn't be buying yourself autographed baseballs (as McFarlane did) or prop swords from Arnold Schwarzenegger movies to hang on the wall of your home cinema (as Liefeld did). Or even aside from them, looking at the same era, I've read that Grant Morrison was able to take a two-year break from comics and buy a castle in the Highlands on what he made off Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On a Serious Earth. So how exactly did McFarlane and Liefeld make their money? Google tells me that McFarlane's net worth is $300 million; granted, I imagine a lot of that's going to be in non-liquid or intangible assets like any IP he owns, but still, $300 million. Where did it come from? Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 23:06
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I would guess that toys have made McFarlane more money than comics ever did.
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May 30, 2017 23:16
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Todd's been allegedly having more financial troubles so I don't know if that number is correct. He also over values his assets like the McGwire balls that have plummeted in value.
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May 31, 2017 00:36
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Didn't he also have to pay NHL punch man Tony Twist $5 million for naming a crime boss after him?
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May 31, 2017 00:39
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Senior Woodchuck posted:I would guess that toys have made McFarlane more money than comics ever did. Definitely. And Morrison got rich off getting paid like a dollar a copy of Arkham Asylum.
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May 31, 2017 02:12
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Dillbag posted:Didn't he also have to pay NHL punch man Tony Twist $5 million for naming a crime boss after him? Yup. He also quietly had to close down his design studio after the 4 Horsemen hosed off to Mattel. And he's been trying to get a Spawn sequel made for 10 years.
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May 31, 2017 03:03
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irlZaphod posted:e2: This page is amazing. I don't know if he still does it, but back in the day Rob Liefeld used to respond to like EVERY lovely tweet thrown at him. So, obviously, I needled him constantly. When this book came out I tweeted him the page that implies that the last thing that Mark Gruenwald ever did before dying was read Liefeld's Captain America, basically saying that Liefeld's art killed him. He went nuts. It was awesome. He called the book "tabloid poo poo" when that thing was the only kinda bad thing about him. The book actually speaks pretty glowingly about the Image founders.
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May 31, 2017 03:09
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Rhyno posted:Yup. Is that why all their stuff now are those weird mostly static color top things?
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May 31, 2017 14:37
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Can anyone recall which Wizard magazine issue had that story about Mike Diana's case? All I remember is that it was in '97 but that's about it.
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May 31, 2017 18:01
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Disharmony posted:Can anyone recall which Wizard magazine issue had that story about Mike Diana's case? All I remember is that it was in '97 but that's about it. http://www.cbr.com/the-guide-to-the-guide-to-comics-wizard-74-october-1997/
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May 31, 2017 18:03
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Unmature posted:When this book came out I tweeted him the page that implies that the last thing that Mark Gruenwald ever did before dying was read Liefeld's Captain America, basically saying that Liefeld's art killed him. He went nuts. Sounds like kind of a lovely thing to do to a stranger whose art you don't like?
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Jun 1, 2017 00:25
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Aphrodite posted:Is that why all their stuff now are those weird mostly static color top things? Probably. All their major lines rely on 3D scanning so there's no need to actually sculpt anymore.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:46
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Archyduke posted:Sounds like kind of a lovely thing to do to a stranger whose art you don't like? A stranger who calls people pussies online, shits on other artists, and is generally an rear end in a top hat? Didn't seem that bad to me.
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Jun 1, 2017 02:41
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So Rob Liefield isn't a nice guy like I assumed he was?
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Jun 1, 2017 02:59
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He is supposedly pretty nice now but he was an rear end in a top hat back during his bigger days.
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Jun 1, 2017 03:04
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Aphrodite posted:He is supposedly pretty nice now but he was an rear end in a top hat back during his bigger days. I can't really hold that against him, because if someone gave me a ton of money, attention, and power over something I loved when I was in my early 20's, I'd probably have been a massive dick too. Thankfully Bioware never responded to my fan mail, so instead I grew up to be a
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Jun 1, 2017 03:14
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Does he still act like he's the only creator of Deadpool? He was still doing that a couple years ago.
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Jun 1, 2017 03:51
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Unmature posted:Does he still act like he's the only creator of Deadpool? He was still doing that a couple years ago. He was doing it at C2E2 this year. He had a banner that said "the creator of Deadpool!" because he has nothing else going for him at all anymore.
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Jun 1, 2017 04:58
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After reading the first hand full of appearances of Deadpool in new mutants and early X-force, I feel that saying Rob didn't create Deadpool as we know him is overblown. Marvel Unlimited was kind enough to include the letter page to New Mutants #99 which was mostly filled with fans asking for more Deadpool describing him as Spider-man with gadgets. When he made his reappearance in X-force there were thought dialog of some dork fighting Deadpool saying his constant talking makes him dangerous cause it takes you away from the fight. It's the kind of thing where you argue if Magneto is a Jack Kirby creation or a Chris Claremont creation. I just feel like seeds for Deadpool as we know him today were planted from day 1, if not 2.
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Jun 1, 2017 05:08
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The issue is, Rob tries to take sole credit for creating Deadpool. When everyone knows Marvel Wolfman and George Perez created him.
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Jun 1, 2017 05:11
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Fabian Nicieza, Joe Kelly, and Mark Waid of all people probably have just as much actual input on early Deadpool to claim they created the character as we know it today. But really it's Nicieza and Liefeld that made the basis of the character.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:00
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I'd say that Deadpool didn't become Deadpool until Kelly took over. Hell they mined the poo poo out of his run for the movie.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:24
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All Deadpool had going on when Liefeld created him was the costume, the healing factor, and having somewhat of a sense of humor. And those first two aren't exactly original concepts. I mean sure, he deserves some credit, but only the way Bob Kane deserves credit for Batman. Which is not very much.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:30
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Well Rob himself has admitted that DP is a massive ripoff of Deathstoke. The humor aspect was probably added by Fabian to set him apart.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:32
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Wasn't it Fabian's idea to name him Wade Wilson? Like he felt leaning into the ripoff would make it less egregious.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:41
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Lurdiak posted:Wasn't it Fabian's idea to name him Wade Wilson? Like he felt leaning into the ripoff would make it less egregious. I don't know about that. I'm trying to find the interview with Wolfman and Perez where they just laugh and through their hands up at the whole thing.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:43
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Deadpool wasn't actually named Wade Wison until much later. The first Deadpool mini by Fabian Nicieza to be exact. Though he had been called Wade in an issue of X-Force right around the time Rob left. Nicieza gave him that name as a joke. The idea behind him mostly was as a Spider-Man ripoff with guns because Rob thought drawing a character like Spider-Man would be easier.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:54
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X-O posted:Deadpool wasn't actually named Wade Wison until much later. The first Deadpool mini by Fabian Nicieza to be exact. Though he had been called Wade in an issue of X-Force right around the time Rob left. Nicieza gave him that name as a joke. The idea behind him mostly was as a Spider-Man ripoff with guns because Rob thought drawing a character like Spider-Man would be easier. So it was Nicieza's idea then, just well after Liefeld left Marvel.
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Jun 1, 2017 06:58
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Things Rob gave Deadpool 1. The costume design 2. The name Deadpool 3. Being a mercenary 4. Healing Factor 5. Guns and Swords Everything else was by other people. Most from Fabian and Joe Kelly with a dash of being a decent guy at his core and his relationship with Siryn by Waid.
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Jun 1, 2017 07:07
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I would cut #5 down to just swords because Liefeld couldn't draw anybody without a gun in their hand.
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Jun 1, 2017 07:09
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True. I think Waid also gave Deadpool his disfigured look. It might have been hinted before but I think that was the first time we actually saw it.
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Jun 1, 2017 07:10
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X-O posted:True. I think Waid also gave Deadpool his disfigured look. It might have been hinted before but I think that was the first time we actually saw it. I'm not certain but didn't we see his scarred skin hi the Circle Chase?
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Jun 1, 2017 07:16
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Ghostlight posted:I would cut #5 down to just swords because Liefeld couldn't draw anybody without a gun in their hand. Didn't he do a mini about Franklin Richards (oh, right, he has a gun in that) In praise of Rob Liefield, he did art on one of my favorite X-Men issues ever. It's when their in the Outback pretending to be dead and the men of the X-Men have a boys night out. There's an alien invasion that almost no one notices, and there's a decent Jean Grey joke that was well before it's time.
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Jun 1, 2017 07:16
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Rhyno posted:I'm not certain but didn't we see his scarred skin hi the Circle Chase? I think his costume got torn and he explained his condition but we never saw his face until Sins of the Past.
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Jun 1, 2017 07:25
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X-O posted:I think his costume got torn and he explained his condition but we never saw his face until Sins of the Past. I'm currently resting my feet on a box containing a nearly complete run of Deadpool comics and I can't be bothered to pull those out to check. But I know he lost his mask in SotP and Siren tried to reassure him.
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Jun 1, 2017 07:29
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