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LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

andipossess posted:

And also expands northward to see if they'll acknowledge Zelda 2's map at all.
This map has a whole island on the northeast coast that's a maze. I thought that was a big reference to Zelda 2.

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Spellman
May 31, 2011

Drewjitsu posted:

LoZ games have always been adventure games. Having a somber soundtrack doesn't convey the sense of adventure that the game wants to promote, so instead what you do to to convey that everything has gone to poo poo is that all of the traditional melodies have been lost. The traditional themes are only sporadically present throughout the soundtrack. The classical adventure theme is only present at night, and only on a horse, and only for a bit.

It's just another thing that they looked at in previous titles and said, "Does this need to be like it always was—prominent looping Koji Kondo melodies, different dungeon themes, modernized versions of Ocarina of Time themes? (Do we really need Saria's Song to be the LW theme again, or will it break the immersion?)" Those are cookie cutter decisions that they've always been making and it just seems like they scrapped that way of thinking and decided to make something right for this game.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012
I can't tell you how surprised and happy I was when I visited Hyrule Castle for the first time and heard nothing of the traditional LttP theme. Likewise visiting the Lost Woods and getting this eerie piano theme in place of Saria. It really helped to drive home that the old rules, the old ways, have well and truly gone out the window.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

I love how there are whole Zones that appear to be ancillary to the main quest.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

LividLiquid posted:

This map has a whole island on the northeast coast that's a maze. I thought that was a big reference to Zelda 2.

It was a 1:1 reference imho

ProjektorBoy
Jun 18, 2002

I FUCK LINEN IN MY SPARE TIME!
Grimey Drawer
Anyone else still enjoying a glitch in the Castle Town Ruins?

This happens on the Wii U version, at least. If you Stasis a Guardian from as far back as possible it'll clip through the ground and vanish when it unfreezes.

It's not on 100% of the guardians, but a good amount.

ProjektorBoy fucked around with this message at 22:13 on May 29, 2017

ProjektorBoy
Jun 18, 2002

I FUCK LINEN IN MY SPARE TIME!
Grimey Drawer
e:double post

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



FiftySeven posted:

But... Why?

Because sperglords.

maltesh
May 20, 2004

Uncle Ben: Still Dead.

Spergatory posted:

I can't tell you how surprised and happy I was when I visited Hyrule Castle for the first time and heard nothing of the traditional LttP theme.

Link to the Past, no. But the Hyrule Castle music has that distinctive Ganon's Tower riff from Ocarina of Time that's also been in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.

Frankston
Jul 27, 2010


So I decided before I went to bed to see how close to the Castle I could get, maybe have a little snoop around and see what's what.

An hour later I emerge with the Hylian Shield and my adrenaline rushing from that loving awesome music. God drat this game. I should probably get around to sorting out those Divine Beasts at some point but I'm just having so much fun.

Bum the Sad
Aug 25, 2002
Hell Gem
Some one posted a map with just rate ore deposits. Which site did they use for that? I can't find one that'll search by just that.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Okay, I have two Phantom Hourglass questions I can't find the answers to anywhere else:

1) Fishing: I have caught Loovar, Toona, Skippyjack and Stowfish, but I can never seem to find the next fish up. I guess it's supposed to appear as a different icon, but I've been traveling a lot and it has never show up. How do I find the drat swordfish?

2) I beat the Salvatore cannon mini-game and he gave me a prize, but he's supposed to send me a gem in the mail, I guess, and he never sent it. Some of the guides have said to "wait 24 hours" and I'm playing on the Wii U version. I always let it load from the restore point. I don't know if that makes a difference? Beedle's weird shop showed up at a totally different time than people say it does on the system clock, so I don't know what's going on.

These two things have been driving me crazy!

Just Andi Now
Nov 8, 2009


LividLiquid posted:

This map has a whole island on the northeast coast that's a maze. I thought that was a big reference to Zelda 2.

I thought about it, but the maze in Zelda 2 is huge proportionally to the map (though that's probably because of engine limitations) and also the they're shaped differently and not positioned similarly at all except for "in the north east of the map". If it's a reference, it's not a big one, especially since there are two other mazes, too.

Frankston
Jul 27, 2010


gently caress this lovely, horrible oaki shrine quest. Whoever thought this was ok to put in the game needs to be banned from future Zelda games.

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007

Well I accidentally found out you can drop bombs while gliding.

well why not
Feb 10, 2009




Frankston posted:

gently caress this lovely, horrible oaki shrine quest. Whoever thought this was ok to put in the game needs to be banned from future Zelda games.

oaki is cool, brave and wants to be your friend so I think it's you who should be banned

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


McDragon posted:

Well I accidentally found out you can drop bombs while gliding.

Have fun!

Frankston posted:

gently caress this lovely, horrible oaki shrine quest. Whoever thought this was ok to put in the game needs to be banned from future Zelda games.

Yeah it's probably one of the few things in the game that I'd say is objectively bad design. They thought of so many obscure things, but didn't think that people might walk around him at the end and enter the shrine without speaking to him? Doing the walk of shame to follow him again and get the side quest cleared was definitely the low point of my playthrough.

Gaspy Conana
Aug 1, 2004

this clown loves you
I went to the shrine without speaking to Oaki as well and had to redo it. It probably wasn't intentional, but the design comes off as a bit jerky. There's not enough of pattern to pick up on during a player's first go-around to succeed using pure logic/skill. Especially when he turns around immediately after the stump, and again with the wolf. He actually cries for help there. If you got through it on your first try you were fortunate.

Nanigans
Aug 31, 2005

~Waku Waku~
So the only release date info for the DLC is still "summer"?

Frankston
Jul 27, 2010


It was the random turning around that pissed me off, that was such a cheap move.

As for the wolf, I don't know what happened but it jumped out and then presumably wandered off because it didn't bother either Oaki or myself. The battle music kept playing all the way until we got to the shrine though.

Ventana
Mar 28, 2010

*Yosh intensifies*

Spellman posted:

Those are cookie cutter decisions that they've always been making and it just seems like they scrapped that way of thinking and decided to make something right for this game.

Except that it still ends up with this games main OST being, by several accounts, fairly boring and uninteresting. Many many many many other games have done somber/depressing/desolate/destroyed-future/atmospheric/whatever tones usually for similar context as in this game, yet can come up with music that's more impactful/memorable/pleasant/better(?)/whatever. Other zelda games are already rich in unsettling atmosphere, hell ask how many people here love Majora's Mask, and yet have more interesting OSTs.

It's a really obvious issue too: the songs themselves are just too sparse. Lowered activity in the music can be fine, and is often used for atmospheric effect. But you can't spread too thin or else you'll get the ~10 second interludes of silence that disconnects the whole song and disengages the listener like some of the songs in BOTW. This isn't for all the tracks of course, but a large portion of the game is spent in the fields scored by these sparse songs.

A different issue imo is in the dungeon music. Starting from OoT, dungeon music in the zelda series has been eerie and varied and awesome. In BOTW it's cool that the tracks speed up the arrangements for a dynamic effect, but the compositions themselves are too samey. The divine beasts sharing mostly similar instrumentation's can be a cool theme, but in practice they just end up as boring. I end up only liking Vah Ruta and then get tired by the other tracks.

Let me end this by saying I really loved Manaka Kataoka's work on AC: New Leaf and there are clearly similarities between that work and Botw, but I think she ended up making Botw a little too dry.

Ventana
Mar 28, 2010

*Yosh intensifies*

Reinanigans posted:

So the only release date info for the DLC is still "summer"?

Yes, still only summer. Likely we'll have to wait till E3 for the exact date.

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011

Say what you will about the soundtrack as a whole but i'll fight anybody who doesn't like the Lost Woods music :colbert:

Frankston
Jul 27, 2010


I got to Rito Village today, I was extremely happy to hear the Dragonroost Island theme.

Gaspy Conana
Aug 1, 2004

this clown loves you
My favorite is Rito, followed by Hateno, followed by T-Town and Kakariko. I really like the instrumentation in Goron but don't find the composition that exciting. I like Lurelin's theme too and wish Zora's Domain was a bit more in that direction.

Tim Burns Effect posted:

Say what you will about the soundtrack as a whole but i'll fight anybody who doesn't like the Lost Woods music :colbert:

Lost Woods is fantastic. Super Steve Reich/minimalist sounding imo.

DeusExIgnis
Aug 21, 2014

Gaspy Conana posted:

I went to the shrine without speaking to Oaki as well and had to redo it. It probably wasn't intentional, but the design comes off as a bit jerky. There's not enough of pattern to pick up on during a player's first go-around to succeed using pure logic/skill. Especially when he turns around immediately after the stump, and again with the wolf. He actually cries for help there. If you got through it on your first try you were fortunate.


Frankston posted:

It was the random turning around that pissed me off, that was such a cheap move.

As for the wolf, I don't know what happened but it jumped out and then presumably wandered off because it didn't bother either Oaki or myself. The battle music kept playing all the way until we got to the shrine though.

ITT people who haven't played stealth games.

Tips for the Oaki mission:

Don't think of it as an escort mission, think of it as a tailing mission. Because that's what it is.
Never ever have direct line of sight to Oaki; stay behind hard cover as much as possible. If you could see Oaki in first person mode, you're probably too exposed.
The wolf won't actually hurt Oaki, even though he's a tasty stick. Still, if you want to play hero, kill it with a high damage bow from far away (using normal arrows for max stealth).
Sheikah Suit dampens noise, but doesn't increase camouflage or make you invisible a la Thief/Elder Scrolls games. If you're familiar with Dishonored, BoTW has almost the same mechanics.
Tall grass can hide you if you crouch, but only if you're far enough away. Stumps and fallen logs are preferred.
Once Oaki gets to the shrine and starts celebrating, you can talk to him.

Thom P. Tiers
May 29, 2008

Red Birds
Red Ass
Red Text

Grimman007 posted:


Once Oaki gets to the shrine and starts celebrating, you can talk to him.

This was the only part of the mission I really had a problem with. I successfully did it on my third time, and then had to do it again because I went around him and entered the shrine. A cut-scene should trigger so it doesn't allow people to do this.

Gaspy Conana
Aug 1, 2004

this clown loves you
Designers shouldn't assume a player's experience. It's possible to design a challenging stealth mission that isn't dependent on familiarity with genre tropes. If the rules of the Oaki mission applied to any other part of the game, I'd give it a pass. The Yiga mission did stealth right imo.

Thom P. Tiers
May 29, 2008

Red Birds
Red Ass
Red Text

Gaspy Conana posted:

Designers shouldn't assume a player's experience. It's possible to design a challenging stealth mission that isn't dependent on familiarity with genre tropes. If the rules of the Oaki mission applied to any other part of the game, I'd give it a pass. The Yiga mission did stealth right imo.

I'm not a huge stealth fan, but the Yiga mission owned because those dinguses loved bananas. The Yiga Clan mission was one of my favorite parts of the game.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012

Ventana posted:

A different issue imo is in the dungeon music. Starting from OoT, dungeon music in the zelda series has been eerie and varied and awesome. In BOTW it's cool that the tracks speed up the arrangements for a dynamic effect, but the compositions themselves are too samey. The divine beasts sharing mostly similar instrumentation's can be a cool theme, but in practice they just end up as boring.

What the hell. This is just not true. Not only are the Divine Beast themes wildly different compositionally, but they barely share any common instrumentation besides a mild underscoring of electronic ambiance. This is just by an admittedly untrained ear, but here are the primary instruments I hear in each DB theme:

Ruta: Piano, Glockenspiel, Pipe Organ, Chimes
Rudania: Sitar, Bongo, Pan Flute
Medoh: Violin, Cello, Woodwinds, Bells
Naboris: Guzheng (I think), Erhu, Synthetic Choir, Piano

That's a pretty wide variety. The pacing and mood of each song is different, as is the way they develop as you complete the dungeon, and even in the complete versions, there's barely any instrument overlap. The most common element is piano, which is the main instrument for the entire game, and still only appears in two of them (in Naboris as a baseline and in Ruta as part of the main melody).

It's fine if you don't like them or think they're "boring," but calling them "samey" just makes it look like you didn't actually listen to any of them.

Frankston
Jul 27, 2010


Grimman007 posted:

ITT people who haven't played stealth games.

Tips for the Oaki mission:

Don't think of it as an escort mission, think of it as a tailing mission. Because that's what it is.
Never ever have direct line of sight to Oaki; stay behind hard cover as much as possible. If you could see Oaki in first person mode, you're probably too exposed.
The wolf won't actually hurt Oaki, even though he's a tasty stick. Still, if you want to play hero, kill it with a high damage bow from far away (using normal arrows for max stealth).
Sheikah Suit dampens noise, but doesn't increase camouflage or make you invisible a la Thief/Elder Scrolls games. If you're familiar with Dishonored, BoTW has almost the same mechanics.
Tall grass can hide you if you crouch, but only if you're far enough away. Stumps and fallen logs are preferred.
Once Oaki gets to the shrine and starts celebrating, you can talk to him.

Lol thank you for the advice, mighty stealth master. My point was it's cheap game design and nothing more to have the guy you're following randomly turn around and run full speed towards you after you've been following him for a minute or two.

Once I knew that was going to happen I did it easily enough.

Thom P. Tiers
May 29, 2008

Red Birds
Red Ass
Red Text
On another note, there are lots of "follow this guy but don't be seen" in Zelda games. And they usually turn around and run real fast at you in some sort of odd sequence. I don't know how that is "cheap game design." It's designed so that, if you fail, you will remember what happens at that specific part of the journey and not get caught next time.

The oracle games had you follow characters into the next several screens and stay hidden behind bushes for a long sequence. Cheap game design.

Alxprit
Feb 7, 2015

<click> <click> What is it with this dancing?! Bouncing around like fools... I would have thought my own kind at least would understand the seriousness of our Adventurer's Guild!

Stealth in Zelda is barely ever fun or a good mechanic, in my opinion. Ever since the first time they did it it's always been the part of the game I least looked forward to.

Ventana
Mar 28, 2010

*Yosh intensifies*

Spergatory posted:

What the hell. This is just not true. Not only are the Divine Beast themes wildly different compositionally, but they barely share any common instrumentation besides a mild underscoring of electronic ambiance.

Uh, you're getting mixed up in the fluff. By "mostly similar", I meant that the most prominent instruments; each of them are obviously stylized in slight ways for their own regional feel with the instruments you described. The prominent instruments are the piano (Ruta, Naboris) or their specific eerie synth (Ruta, Naboris, Rudania) that leads the tracks and are not underscore. Rudania does have more going on with it's percussion that it's close to the lead but imo it's not enough.

Vah Medoh I'll admit is mostly completely different since it's primarily strings. I could've swore that the piano was stronger, but it seems to be present only in the beginning. Medoh is also the most boring track imo and doesn't really sound good at all, so I wouldn't bring it up as a good example really.

And even if we were going to split hairs about instrumentation, I'd still go back to my original point that it's samey in comparison to the other games. Ruta/Naboris/Rudania all blend together for me, but I can feel a stronger distinction among say 3 random WW-dungeons when looking at compostion. I feel like it's obvious, but you are free to disagree.

mastajake
Oct 3, 2005

My blade is unBENDING!

Bum the Sad posted:

Some one posted a map with just rate ore deposits. Which site did they use for that? I can't find one that'll search by just that.

https://mrcheeze.github.io/botw-object-map/

Ventana
Mar 28, 2010

*Yosh intensifies*
As much as I'd want to harp about Botw's OST, I'll give it this: it probably has the best final boss music in the series and is completely awesome.

Spellman
May 31, 2011

Ventana posted:

Except that it still ends up with this games main OST being, by several accounts, fairly boring and uninteresting. Many many many many other games have done somber/depressing/desolate/destroyed-future/atmospheric/whatever tones usually for similar context as in this game, yet can come up with music that's more impactful/memorable/pleasant/better(?)/whatever. Other zelda games are already rich in unsettling atmosphere, hell ask how many people here love Majora's Mask, and yet have more interesting OSTs.

There's a trend in TV where really good shows limit the amount of music just to scenes that make those songs impactful to the scenes. Gendy Tartakovsky brought this up when he was talking about Samurai Jack, and Vince Gilligan as well for Breaking Bad. Because a show gets smothered with too many memorable tunes and it becomes more about the soundtrack than about the message the show is trying to communicate. A more clearly delivered message makes for a more entertaining and memorable show by most counts.

The BotW soundtrack might not sound as good divorced from the game, but it works well in this game and I never find myself getting annoyed. Majora's Mask does have a great soundtrack and is rich in atmosphere, but does the jaunty overworld theme really add anything to it every time you emerge from Castle Town? It seems like they just added it for tradition, because all Zelda games have music everywhere. Or maybe the overworld wasn't interesting enough without the music. If you had that song just play at random intervals like BotW, wouldn't it be jarring and annoying?

Remember that BotW can be a very long game if you can make it that way—hundreds of hours potentially. Being able to escape from rote looping tracks is a very good thing. We have several awesome battle themes, cute little town themes, the shrine tune. There's a lot of good in there, and it only plays when it needs to play

Spellman fucked around with this message at 18:29 on May 31, 2017

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

Is the guardian armor worth getting . That's a lot of mats.

ProjektorBoy
Jun 18, 2002

I FUCK LINEN IN MY SPARE TIME!
Grimey Drawer
Stealth in Ocarina of Time was thankfully minimal and not too kludgy. You could cheese it a bit and make it through faster than it seemed you could.

Wind Waker's Stealth section had some fun mechanics but felt way too heavy-handed. It wrecked the pacing of what could have been a cool sequence.

Twilight Princess stealth was outright annoying.

BotW's stealth is woven throughout the entire game, but as an optional aspect of the player arsenal. BotW's usage of stealth is probably the best compromise without beating the player over the head with the mechanic.

euphronius posted:

Is the guardian armor worth getting . That's a lot of mats.

Perhaps it's dependent on how confident you are at fighting Guardians. Wearing something with an 84 Defensive rating that will make Guardian lasers take no more than 3.5 hearts is pretty nice. But since I got to a point where I can often fight Guardians without taking a scratch, I opted for rotating Sheikah Suit, Climber's Gear, and Fierce Deity to get me through the game.

I guess by the time you've fought enough Guardians to get the pieces & money required for the armor, you're already so adept at killing them that you don't even need the armor. Funny how that works.

ProjektorBoy fucked around with this message at 18:39 on May 31, 2017

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maltesh
May 20, 2004

Uncle Ben: Still Dead.

euphronius posted:

Is the guardian armor worth getting . That's a lot of mats.

At level 2 it gives you ancient proficiency, a significant damage boost to Ancient Weaponry that stacks with Attack Bonuses from Food. It's also as good as the Soldier Armor on Defense when maxed out, which beats all but the Champion's Tunic.

Yeah, it's worth it, especially if you want to stock up on ancient materials.

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