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Skoll posted:If the AI is retardedly good, I'm sure as gently caress going to be save scumming. You don't go through the efforts of making goon pilots / people you know with the intention of killing them unless they're Ohsh. Or Skoll.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:36
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First campaign mission I"m putting Vdub and Skoll in twin locusts and doing pirouettes in front of a heavy tank.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:37
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Cyrano4747 posted:First campaign mission I"m putting Vdub and Skoll in twin locusts and doing pirouettes in front of a heavy tank. Mr. Bibbs in an armor stripped atlas that only walks backwards.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:39
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Rhymenoserous posted:Mr. Bibbs in an armor stripped atlas that only walks backwards. Commoners in the same, only somehow he wins.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:40
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You'll never stop save scumming, but you can make the pilot death/injury mechanic more interesting than just shrugging and saying "Why bother?" With that logic, you'll never stop game file editing, so why bother having a mechlab?
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Jun 2, 2017 18:44
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Cyrano4747 posted:First campaign mission I"m putting Vdub and Skoll in twin locusts and doing pirouettes in front of a heavy tank. In that situation, you know I'd leg veedub, right? I've had a goon lance plotted out since Nov. 2015 though and yeah if the game is great and I lost them in amazing battles I'll accept that, but if like some random second turn headshot cores out my mechs cockpit early or mid game? That's kinda BS and I'mma save scum that. Personally, I think it will be badass to have some pilots that are like half cyborg or some poo poo and I acknowledge some loss is inevitable, but you don't want it to be for nothing.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:44
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I feel like the best way to make pilot death matter is to give the player some way to mitigate it. Be it a medic skill, or an eject mechanic, or something- the game needs some element that lets the player make a choice related to pilot risk. As it is, every time you put them on the field you are just rolling the dice on whether or not they come back alive. That's not terribly engaging. I feel like having to decide whether to bail on that Atlas with mostly intact armor but 4 wounds, saving the pilot but losing use of the mech for the remainder of the mission, would add a lot of tension.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:48
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Sarsapariller posted:I feel like the best way to make pilot death matter is to give the player some way to mitigate it. Be it a medic skill, or an eject mechanic, or something- the game needs some element that lets the player make a choice related to pilot risk. As it is, every time you put them on the field you are just rolling the dice on whether or not they come back alive. That's not terribly engaging. I feel like having to decide whether to bail on that Atlas with mostly intact armor but 4 wounds, saving the pilot but losing use of the mech for the remainder of the mission, would add a lot of tension. This is a good idea. Kind of similar to how dumping ammo (or ejecting) worked in TT. Start breaching armor on an atlas and you better bet ammo was getting dumped out the back. Hell, if we weren't playing with vehicles or infantry first turn in a Warhammer I'd punch out the MG ammo. gently caress that liability.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:52
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Gwaihir posted:Plz no ghost heat triggers /shudder It's not Ghost Heat and it's not an inconsistency, it's just not showing you what it's actually doing. It's working like tabletop: it's cooling that first [# heatsinks] weapon heat instantly and then adding any excess to the bar, rather than adding the heat to the bar and then cooling you off after the fact. Take a BattleMaster and fire just one medium laser and the heat won't even show up. I've absolutely cooled down while firing a limited number of weapons. The real problem is that PPCs are a lovely test weapon since their heat is incredibly high for their damage and short-range uselessness. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 19:11
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Took awhile to figure the game out, but I kinda love it. Had a match with a wonky end due to AI, though. In the Loch map, the last mech the enemy had standing, an Orion, ran up behind my own heavy, another Orion and... braced. So, I immediately ran up behind them and shot them, didn't kill them, so on their turn they... braced again. Everyone was in water so it wasn't heat, just the AI being wonky. Edit: Oh, something else that I saw. Another environment type effect. Marshes... 50% stability damage. Either negative or positive, I don't remember.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:14
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If they had an open torso section with ammo in it they might have been bracing to prevent an ammo explosion. Skirmish `Mechs might need an "Am I the sole survivor? YOLO!" flag for their AI behavior.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:17
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PoptartsNinja posted:It's not Ghost Heat and it's not an inconsistency, it's just not showing you what it's actually doing. Oh that's smart and good. I did a test game and I'm still adjusting from not really understanding TT Battletech to not really understanding HBS Battletech.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:18
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Alchenar posted:Oh that's smart and good. Yeah, one thing I will say is that it's close enough in a lot of key ways (heat, movement, facing, weapon ranges) to TT that having a firm grasp of that system is a huge leg up.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:30
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For some reason I can't attack downed mechs unless I use multi-targeter in this current skirmish game for some reason. This has led to the death of my only light mech  EDIT: Never mind I'm loving stupid and didn't notice the called shot thing 
Bolow fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 19:32
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The favorite mechs of the bunch so far are Mediums and Heavies. They don't go down in a single hit or lose limbs instantly due to lucky shots and they're powerful enough to hit back without being giant piles of glue on the battlefield. Assaults meanwhile just has you plinking away hoping to break armor at any point in the future and Lights just explode when sneezed at.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:34
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For those who have been playing the Backer Beta, how is the 'overheat causes internal damage' mechanic? It seems rather punitive to me, and really discourages riding that heat scale. That being said, I don't want to pre-judge without having even loaded up the game.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:40
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Sarsapariller posted:I feel like the best way to make pilot death matter is to give the player some way to mitigate it. Be it a medic skill, or an eject mechanic, or something- the game needs some element that lets the player make a choice related to pilot risk. As it is, every time you put them on the field you are just rolling the dice on whether or not they come back alive. That's not terribly engaging. I feel like having to decide whether to bail on that Atlas with mostly intact armor but 4 wounds, saving the pilot but losing use of the mech for the remainder of the mission, would add a lot of tension. I'm fine with adding some way to try and shade odds in your favor or whatever. I don't particularly like an Eject mechanic (necessarily) if only because then you open up the Salvage can of worms about what condition you get the mech back in, and if you take the field but it was a hit and run mission or whatever. Solvable, but again doesn't really get past the save scumming issue. Maybe make it a longer term gamble? The first time they're "killed", they come back with one less pilot wound when they're ready for action again. Sure, that makes them more likely to get killed again in the future, but it makes you choose between letting your old warhorse retire and have to train a replacement, or get him murdered but have use of his expertise and experience.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:44
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CourValant posted:For those who have been playing the Backer Beta, how is the 'overheat causes internal damage' mechanic? I only played 2 matches, won both handily, but I think the internal damage isn't enough. Shutting down was a really big problem, but internal structure damage wasn't significant enough for me to not fire. I was doing way more damage with my shots than I was receiving as internal damage, so I kept up the push as much as I could. Internet Explorer fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 19:44
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CourValant posted:For those who have been playing the Backer Beta, how is the 'overheat causes internal damage' mechanic? It's a minor amount of internal damage so long as you are between OH and SD on the scale. It's not terrible.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:45
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Internet Explorer posted:I only played 2 matches, won both handily, but I think the internal damage isn't enough. Shutting down was a really big problem, but internal structure damage wasn't significant enough for me to not fire. I was doing way more damage with my shots then I was receiving as internal damage, so I kept up the push as much as I could. Yeah, it's really negligible. Frankly I"ve just been ignoring it. They need to triple, at least, the heat damage.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:47
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah, it's really negligible. Frankly I"ve just been ignoring it. They need to triple, at least, the heat damage. or narrow the band between OH and SD
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Jun 2, 2017 19:48
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Rygar201 posted:or narrow the band between OH and SD Nah, that just further exacerbates the problem of there being no real difference between "normal heat" and "oh gently caress shut down I'm screwed." Now that I think about it what they need to do is broaden that band but make the damage scale. If you're just barely kissing the top of the OH it does just a few points like it does now, but if you're way redlining it you really get hosed up.
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Jun 2, 2017 19:50
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CourValant posted:For those who have been playing the Backer Beta, how is the 'overheat causes internal damage' mechanic? It's fine as it is. The damage is relatively low and it sure as hell beats most of the other alternatives (mobility loss, automatic pilot damage, ammo explosion risk). The little angry orange numbers are enough of a deterrent to encourage you not to overheat if you can help it while at the same time the damage isn't anywhere near enough to be deadly if you absolutely need something to die right now. Shutting down is as deadly as it is in Alpha Strike though. Don't shut down. Edit: It doesn't need to do more damage than it does already, the damage is minor but it does weaken you over time if you're constantly pushing into overheat without being utterly crippling if you spike your heat once or twice on accident. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 19:56
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Cyrano4747 posted:Nah, that just further exacerbates the problem of there being no real difference between "normal heat" and "oh gently caress shut down I'm screwed." Yea, like just over the OH line for the 1dmg it seems to do now and maybe 3x dmg right near shutdown. Would have to watch out for MW with lots/none of guts getting a huge gap between OH and SH and racking up tons of dmg like how Angel of Death really punishes JJ heat for those extended jumps.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:01
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Overheat is one of the few areas pgi got it right. Well at least post fixing insta overhear headshots. The heat will gently caress YOU UP and you don't want to do it too much, but it's situationally really useful to take the hit and dish out some more damage. As it stand there is no reason no to in BT. Once you realize how small those orange numbers are you just say gently caress it.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:Overheat is one of the few areas pgi got it right. Well at least post fixing insta overhear headshots. The heat will gently caress YOU UP and you don't want to do it too much, but it's situationally really useful to take the hit and dish out some more damage. I think it's a bigger deal once you're damaged, so it's more of a tradeoff. If you're at standoff range LRMing, then no it's not a huge deterrent.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:04
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Zaodai posted:I think it's a bigger deal once you're damaged, so it's more of a tradeoff. If you're at standoff range LRMing, then no it's not a huge deterrent. Once you have some holes in your armor, taking extra structure damage is a dicey, yeah
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Jun 2, 2017 20:08
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Sarsapariller posted:I feel like the best way to make pilot death matter is to give the player some way to mitigate it. Be it a medic skill, or an eject mechanic, or something- the game needs some element that lets the player make a choice related to pilot risk. As it is, every time you put them on the field you are just rolling the dice on whether or not they come back alive. That's not terribly engaging. I feel like having to decide whether to bail on that Atlas with mostly intact armor but 4 wounds, saving the pilot but losing use of the mech for the remainder of the mission, would add a lot of tension. You could combine that with a soft anti-savescum mechanic as well. Throwing out a random idea: Say a pilot gets injured/"killed" in the field, you'll get shown the general severity of their condition (e.g. light, medium, severe, critical), but without a final mechanical effect yet. Then you get to decide what kind of treatment to give them, with a trade-off between effectiveness and time taken. So you could throw them right back into the field, but that would have high odds of resulting in a fairly gnarly (semi-)permanent injury or even outright death. Or you could stick them into the medbay for an extended period (perhaps with a money cost for whatever super high-end care is available in the BTech universe), which would give you much better odds at a relatively less severe penalty or even a full recovery, but would keep the pilot out of action for several missions. The key here would be that the roll for whatever happens is fixed at the time you decide on your treatment option, but you only get to actually see the result once the treatment finishes. Most people wouldn't go back like 4+ missions just because their guy did bite it in the end.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:09
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Assaults and heavies also appear to take more damage from overheating than lights and mediums do.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:15
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Assaults and heavies are the ones I yolo and overheat routinely with no ill effects.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:18
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I'm having a lot of fun with it now that I sort of understand more what to do and I'm not getting my rear end handed to me every single fight. Even enjoying bringing Urbanmechs to fights, if only because AC10s are actually sort of deadly.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:18
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Perestroika posted:You could combine that with a soft anti-savescum mechanic as well. Throwing out a random idea: Say a pilot gets injured/"killed" in the field, you'll get shown the general severity of their condition (e.g. light, medium, severe, critical), but without a final mechanical effect yet. Then you get to decide what kind of treatment to give them, with a trade-off between effectiveness and time taken. So you could throw them right back into the field, but that would have high odds of resulting in a fairly gnarly (semi-)permanent injury or even outright death. Or you could stick them into the medbay for an extended period (perhaps with a money cost for whatever super high-end care is available in the BTech universe), which would give you much better odds at a relatively less severe penalty or even a full recovery, but would keep the pilot out of action for several missions. The key here would be that the roll for whatever happens is fixed at the time you decide on your treatment option, but you only get to actually see the result once the treatment finishes. Most people wouldn't go back like 4+ missions just because their guy did bite it in the end.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:19
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I've only run the high heat curve and taken structure 1-2 times but each time I looked at the little indicator, shrugged, and said "worth it" and it ended up being the right choice. in short, high-intensity fights like skirmish I think that's naturally going to be the first choice of many - you're not settling in for a long slug and you know it, so go for it. I think that's fine. The damage numbers seemed to be tuned for "a couple times is NBD, don't do it every turn" which feels right. Just pretend you're a book protagonist slamming that override switch and always getting away with it like they always do. Shutdown is crippling, and that's more important to get right (and it is)
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Jun 2, 2017 20:23
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Yeah, I really doubt you will be able to consistently overheat during the campaign. Setting aside just the longer battles, I imagine structure damage will have additional repair costs on top of armor repair, so even if that mech is never otherwise damaged you could be running up repair bills.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:27
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Yeah, but if we're talking about something like an LRM boat, even in a campaign situation it will likely be better that your LRM mech take structure damage than let whatever is in the front-line taking a pounding to eat another salvo from the enemy mech you're taking out.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:31
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After dicking around more in skirmish, I feel like Sensor Lock on a scout mech coupled with an LRM boat might be a little too good, especially considering that the commando and jenner have huge sensor ranges. This might be less of an issue in the campaign mode since ammo might not be readily available or easily replenished between missions, but they're pretty brutal in skirmish
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Jun 2, 2017 21:01
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Bolow posted:After dicking around more in skirmish, I feel like Sensor Lock on a scout mech coupled with an LRM boat might be a little too good, especially considering that the commando and jenner have huge sensor ranges. This might be less of an issue in the campaign mode since ammo might not be readily available or easily replenished between missions, but they're pretty brutal in skirmish Yup. I just did a round where I took 2 catapults and 2 trebuchets (1 treb had sensor lock) against the default assault lance with the atlas, orion, and two lights. I won with a single dead trebuchet that I lost early when I forgot to sensor lock the first light I saw, which let it get close enough to gently caress me up. LRM fire from the Orion and Atlas finished it off. AFter that it was just a matter of locking down mechs and beating the pilots to death.
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Jun 2, 2017 21:26
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Bolow posted:After dicking around more in skirmish, I feel like Sensor Lock on a scout mech coupled with an LRM boat might be a little too good, especially considering that the commando and jenner have huge sensor ranges. This might be less of an issue in the campaign mode since ammo might not be readily available or easily replenished between missions, but they're pretty brutal in skirmish If you tried this against a human player, what's the counter? Stay in cover and flank the LRM boats?
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Jun 2, 2017 21:44
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I just like to post how the Beta is okay. Had some fun shooting with an Awesome just above the head of my urbie. A bigger Mech would have blocked my shots. I also managed to dual leg my Victor with a DFA, luckily the DFA also killed the enemy mech (Metal Baby).
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Jun 2, 2017 21:45
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My victor just stepped on a hunchback's cockpit to end the match. GOTY 10/10
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