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Kanos posted:I'm only basing this off watching streams, but it feels weird that evasive move is just as effective when used on an Atlas as on a Locust. This could be the MWO player in me talking but maybe "evasion" on assaults or heavies could function as kind of active twisting? less likely for multiple shots to hit the same component/more likely to hit shield arms due to the pilot twisting to spread damage on incoming fire?
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Jun 3, 2017 16:02
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Alchenar posted:Also piling in on the 'game should not tell me my hit chance is 100% when actually it is 50%' bandwagon. Getting on this as well. Really the UI needs to be better at telling you the various status effects. In trees, in water, in those crystal things, evading, etc. As it stands they're there, but the icons are tiny and it's not at all clear what the enemy is doing without a bunch of clicking. I get that we don't want big icons right over the mechs, but some of it could be simple visual clues. Giant cloud of steam coming from around mechs in water, that kind of poo poo. With evade maybe just throw in the towel and put a giant loving red "E" over the top of evading mechs, I dunno. I just know that more than once I've lit up an enemy with my "95%" weapons only to see half of them miss and go "oh gently caress, he was evading?!?"
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Jun 3, 2017 16:06
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Cyrano4747 posted:Getting on this as well. passing this along to the combat team. Seems like the essential problem is that status effects and states on enemy 'Mechs just aren't visible enough, so you're surprised to fire a 100% shot and discover the target was evading. Really, evade and guard are such huge problems that you should never discover that a target has one of them by accident after you fire. Agreed, and noted!
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Jun 3, 2017 16:39
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Isildur, do you know if there are/plans to add animations for mechs falling forward too?
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Jun 3, 2017 16:46
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Cyrano4747 posted:With evade maybe just throw in the towel and put a giant loving red "E" over the top of evading mechs, I dunno. To me, evading just kinda feels like a mismatch with how turns play out. When you think about the game as an abstraction of simultaneous conflict, it's conceptually sound ... but since the game's representation is so concrete, it's not as easy to make that connection as it is with TT. It's intuitive for something like receiving overwatch fire in XCOM where you see the misses happen as they move and you can attribute them to "hey, this guy's moving evasively." When a mech is standing still and evading, though, it just looks like the other pilot fell over one too many times and can't shoot for poo poo. If there were some idle animation that would convey the act of being evasive, it'd be easier to make that connection immediately. But that's a pain in the rear end. Maybe it could get reflavored? Something about minimizing your mech's profile, or some form of light ECM going on.
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Jun 3, 2017 16:57
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Kraven Moorhed posted:To me, evading just kinda feels like a mismatch with how turns play out. When you think about the game as an abstraction of simultaneous conflict, it's conceptually sound ... but since the game's representation is so concrete, it's not as easy to make that connection as it is with TT. It's intuitive for something like receiving overwatch fire in XCOM where you see the misses happen as they move and you can attribute them to "hey, this guy's moving evasively." I agree with this and will say as a general concept, the audio-visual experience leaves a lot to be desired and does not help convey what is going on.
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Jun 3, 2017 17:02
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Look at these dudes who don't laugh watching 'mechs matrix dodge missiles
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Jun 3, 2017 17:03
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Gonna follow up on my early impressions- Senor Lock still feels bad to me. Evasiveness is too strong, and my light mech is pretty much always still Sensor Bitch. Mathematically, in most situations it makes little sense to fire what paltry firepower my lights have, versus using Sensor Lock and boosting the damage of the entire rest of my lance against a target. Honestly, even if I only use a single unit to attack the Sensor Locked mech, I am still usually coming out on top doing that versus using the light mechs weapons. Evasiveness feels like it needs nerfed, but Sensor Lock also needs a couple tweaks. The range on it is stupidly huge. It should probably have a one turn cooldown. Unsteady should probably carry some sort of penalty. If there is one, I haven't noticed it. Until a mech goes full prone, as far as I can tell, there is literally no difference if a mech is at 10% stability or 90%. Feels bad to work hard to knockdown a mech, not get the knockdown, and get no benefit from all that stability damage. Like my earlier post, "target lock" needs to be a thing. I swear to god I've seen it happen, but I have no idea how. Clicking move, then a dot, then hovering to see shot percent, hitting escape, clicking another dot to see shot percent, etc, sucks. Not to mention the current way it is setup invites misclicks. PPCs are shite. Melee needs to be selectable as part of an attack action. No game, I don't want to punch that guy in the front where he has full armor, I want to move behind him where he is already down to structure and murder him. I understand simplifying punch vs kick, but not giving players a choice in positioning during melee feels bad. Melee again. The game frequently makes lovely choices for punching / kicking. I've gone to melee a mech missing one leg, with the other on its last structure, and it decides to punch them.
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Jun 3, 2017 17:04
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There is no difference between punch and kick. It's just visual fluff. Melee is melee. It uses whichever animation the game thinks will look best in that situation. Also, I frankly can't understand your light mech/sensor lock point. Evasiveness is too strong, which is hard-countered by sensor lock, which is also too strong? What? And I think you're looking far too rigidly at light mechs shooting vs scouting. What your light mechs do in a fight depends entirely on what forces are involved and what the situation is. If your opponent is doing a lot of evasive moves, of course your light mech will spend most of time doing sensor locks. That's the point. If you've got an LRM lance, of course your scout is going to scout most of the time. If most of the enemy is Assault mechs, of course your light will be focused on just surviving. But the moment your opponent stops putting evasive on his unit, your light mechs will start firing guns. It's entirely situational. I'm pretty sure Unsteady stops you from sprinting, which is a huge survivability and positioning penalty. Agreed on PPCs though, they need help. But that's something we already know they're doing internally, just like we know they're working on a better melee interface (so selecting where you end up afterwards is not such a pain). DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jun 3, 2017 |
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Jun 3, 2017 17:25
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Myrmidongs posted:Melee needs to be selectable as part of an attack action. No game, I don't want to punch that guy in the front where he has full armor, I want to move behind him where he is already down to structure and murder him. I understand simplifying punch vs kick, but not giving players a choice in positioning during melee feels bad. I strongly suspect this was a deliberate design decision to specifically prevent you from just walking around and punching someone in the back because of how devastating it can be. As is, you only get punched in the back if you leave someone behind you.
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Jun 3, 2017 17:36
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The AI moves around and punches me in the back all the time
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Jun 3, 2017 17:38
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The current manual states that they're working on allowing you to select the specific space you want to end your movement in when taking a melee action, IIRC.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:06
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DatonKallandor posted:There is no difference between punch and kick. It's just visual fluff. Melee is melee. It uses whichever animation the game thinks will look best in that situation. I hope not, having different hit tables for punch vs kick should have made it in  quote:Also, I frankly can't understand your light mech/sensor lock point. Evasiveness is too strong, which is hard-countered by sensor lock, which is also too strong? What? If you take a mech and sprint it somewhere, you're probably counting on that sprint. To me, it doesn't feel good to be able to have someone else hiding behind a mountain that doesn't even have LOS, halfway across the map, not even with a firing arc pointed in the right direction, to be able to hard-counter with literally no drawback other than it doesn't get to shoot that turn. Sensor Lock is too good. I mean I get that they seem like opposing ideas, but I don't feel like both Sensor Lock being crazy strong and Evasiveness being crazy strong is good for the game. It feels like it is introducing a form of Rocket Tag.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:07
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Myrmidongs posted:I hope not, having different hit tables for punch vs kick should have made it in Eh, I can see why they abstracted this. Part of me agrees that you should be able to choose punch vs. kick, but then both of those do different amounts of damage (which means more listings in the UI for what your weapons do) and it's an extra click to make that decision when closing to melee. One thing that kind of annoys me is that move is automatically selected at the beginning of a turn. I can't count the number of times I"ve had a mech I wanted to stand off and alpha into some bastard run up and punch him instead.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:10
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Giving lights a much smaller sensor signature in general would probably be enough to let you surprise people with them properly. Maybe that will really be the Raven's job.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:10
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Alchenar posted:Also piling in on the 'game should not tell me my hit chance is 100% when actually it is 50%' bandwagon. I like the idea of it displaying what it should be but then with a red penalty superimposed or something, so you know something unusual is going on. Although it could also just be added to the tooltip. I like all the tooltips.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:13
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Cyrano4747 posted:Eh, I can see why they abstracted this. Part of me agrees that you should be able to choose punch vs. kick, but then both of those do different amounts of damage (which means more listings in the UI for what your weapons do) and it's an extra click to make that decision when closing to melee. I would be totally fine with punch and kick doing the same damage, but rather just giving a higher chance to hit torso for a punch, and hit legs for a kick. And honestly, I think that could still be automated. Just do a quick check of what has a better chance of killing.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:16
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I am now Extremely hype for my personal 'Mech Commander to take the field in the single player. Anyone else feeling the same way?
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Jun 3, 2017 18:21
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Personally I feel somewhat vindicated with all the hate Evasive gets, after how hard I got poo poo on for suggesting giving all lights a base 50% dodge for free would be kind of unfun bullshit. Regardless of how good Evasive is right now (spoiler: extremely good), I'm definitely in the same boat with the people who think that Evasive on your target is terribly communicated to you during the shooting phase. Even if it doesn't show up in the shot percentages, it should at least show up in a mouseover somewhere or something. Like if I mouse over the shot now, modifiers show up, but Evasive doesn't even show up in that list, which it probably should even if it doesn't factor in to the raw % for some reason. I can visually see cover (and it gets added on that mouseover list), heat causing us to miss, recoil penalties on ACs, etc. So it makes it an extra bad surprise when you fire 30 LRMs and some ACs at a target and half of them just get juked by an Urbie breakdancing in some trees.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:32
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I think it would be cool if sensor lock let you fire just one weapon after using it, though that would heavily favour lights building around one big weapon.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:35
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Zaodai posted:Personally I feel somewhat vindicated with all the hate Evasive gets, after how hard I got poo poo on for suggesting giving all lights a base 50% dodge for free would be kind of unfun bullshit. when did this happen because what vorebane posted:I think it would be cool if sensor lock let you fire just one weapon after using it, though that would heavily favour lights building around one big weapon. like what, SL and then drop your own LRMs on target? Sounds like every mech with an LRM20 would carry it and it'd be even more powerful. Not sure that's a good idea  As it is now, you can move + SL, at least. It's not firing a weapon but you get the movement defense modifier and can continue on your flanking journey while still assisting every turn - I like that, personally. Psion fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jun 3, 2017 |
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Jun 3, 2017 18:38
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Psion posted:when did this happen because what Earlier in the thread, someone suggested that an additional way to buff Lights would be that they get Evasion at all times as a standard thing, so they could survive the fury of those dastardly Assaults better. I replied that I hope that if they do that, they add an option to turn it off or the first mod someone makes is a mod to remove it, because that would be horrible bullshit. Then like 8 people jumped down my throat because I hadn't played the game yet so I couldn't possibly criticize the idea of a 50% base evasion being balanced, it might be totally fair YOU DON'T KNOW.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:41
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While I get that Read the Manual isn't going to cut it for a lot of people, I am going to make this argument anyway. Evasive is displayed by the enemy 'mech and you will often know that the enemy 'mech will have sprinted. Evasive isn't a hit malus (a 50% hit malus would actually be weaker than Evasive), it works like other defensive buffs. Hopefully this is clearly communicated by the in game tutorial at release, since I know people don't like to read Owner's Manuals.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:41
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I'm not convinced evasive is extremely good. It's got a niche, but with the exception of one pilot, you give up your shooting to get it, and it can still be countered several ways. Including just straight up getting shut off at unsteady, which again to get rid of, you need to give up your shooting (and get a different, more easily circumvented defense type). Or, what is usually the better option - shoot something that doesn't have evasive. If they're going evasive they didn't hurt you that turn - you don't lose the daamge race by not hurting that mech that turn. If there's anything that makes the non-talent evasive look too good it's that the AI simply can't use sensor lock - it doesn't know how. Until we can actually play people, all of this "x is too strong" is kinda pointless - the AI isn't playing with a full deck, and even if it was, it's still an AI. Human players is where we'll see if stuff is too good, after weeks of playtime. Seriously, try giving the AI the evasive pilot and don't bring sensor lock. It's not hard to win anyway, despite missing "the counter". On another note, inspire is a neat mechanic. Getting a fixed 95% to-hit lets you do some interesting shenanigans with what should be short ranged loadouts. Especially SRM based ones - the SRM commando is a killer at long range if you get it inspired. Also a killer when it isn't, because of SRMs just being amazing. Edit: vvv All the buffs are big icons underneath the mech readout for the enemy you're targeting. I totally agree all the defense stuff should dynamically show up on the weapons panel - or at the very least, all the hit-chance stuff should be factored into the displayed chances, not just everything-but-evasive. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jun 3, 2017 |
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Jun 3, 2017 18:43
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It should still be indicated somewhere near your shot panel when you're targeting them. It doesn't have to show up in the percentage window, but you could easily put the little Evasive icon above the weapons HUD or something as a reminder. When all the other modifiers are handily given to you there, you don't always remember which targets sprinted and which didn't. or to go look at the mech itself when your eyes are directed to the lower right for other important information regarding the shot.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:44
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DatonKallandor posted:I'm not convinced evasive is extremely good. Well, it's ok to be wrong I guess.
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Jun 3, 2017 18:49
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Good at it's job, which is getting you some big defense at the cost of all offense, but not game breaking. It's sometimes a good option, often a bad option. It's a pretty nunanced mecahnic - that contributes to the AI not really knowing to to use it (and obviously not having the ability to use sensor lock doesn't exactly make evasive look worse). I'm also struggling to make the AI perform well. Give it a balanced loadout or a brawler setup, including only pilots the AI can acutally activate, and it's refusal to send all the mechs into the fight at once just kills it. Give it a bunch of LRM boats, and it'll get it's spotter killed immediately. Maybe I'll have to give it one tanky heavier brawler to spot and some cheaper budget LRM boats?
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Jun 3, 2017 19:05
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An Evasive Atlas can basically tank 2-3 rounds from an entire lance before they even get unsteady. I had one parked at the edge of some forest and just matrix dodged poo poo while my urbie, cent, and hunchback mauled the poo poo out the other side. Also why does the AC/10 do more damage than a PPC 
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Jun 3, 2017 19:12
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For those who want to create their own MechWarriors (portraits included), there's a far easier way to do so than the guide I posted earlier. Linked Here.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:17
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The AC10 (and 5, and 2) blew complete rear end in tt, it needed a buff. 25 more damage is ok when you're taking a shorter range, explosive ammo, and far more critical slots.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:18
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My most recent match. I had a centurion, vindicator, orion, awesome vs commando, catapult, catapult, awesome Their commando sprinted out front and got ganked early. Then their two catapults started IDFing my centurion and knocked it down every turn, almost killing it with pilot hits. I knocked down their awesome with my missiles and my awesome standing in a mineral field for extra energy damage headshot it. Orion moved in to brawl, the catapults stopped maneuvering entirely and basically just stood still firing medium lasers and shoulder checking, ignoring that the centurion had flanked them and was shooting at their rear armor. One tried to walk around behind my orion, pointing its rear armor at my awesome in PPC short range. In the end, the orion headshot both the catapults with its AC10.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:20
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Remind me again, does a CT kill mean the mech is unsalvagable? If it does I would be broke as hell.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:29
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DatonKallandor posted:Remind me again, does a CT kill mean the mech is unsalvagable? If it does I would be broke as hell. It would in tabletop, but I don't think we know the salvage rules for the campaign. It probably won't be the same in this game, considering mechs are still walking around if they lose one leg so legging isn't quite as viable for trying to cherry tap for salvage.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:35
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In tabletop the mech is salvageable but unrepeairable. You could still reuse the arms and legs.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:38
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Isildur, I think most of the status icons could use more distinct symbols. They're workable but Guarded's the only one that's really good. Cover could probably stand to be a tree rather than "guarded but slightly different" and I can't recall ever seeing entrenched's symbol but "weird triangle" doesn't really scream 'dug in.' Evasive looks like a white square with gray corners--it looks more like a graphical glitch than something meant to convery info. I also feel that "Entrenched" is a really awkward status name because that's not what's happening. I'd change it to "Braced" and then change the "brace" skill name to "full defensive" to make it more obvious that clicking it will prevent the unit from attacking. A quick series of "Target evading!" "Target guarded!" "Target braced!" pop-text when you select a target with one or many of those statuses might help, with an option to turn them off in the menus if you want. Zaodai's suggestion to devote a little UI real estate at the top of the weapon list to show your target's defenses would also be a good idea, especially if players can mouse over the symbols and see right away if they're going to be doing half damage and missing every other shot. I'd also like an option to turn off visible damage numbers (because I think it'd make the game harder in a fun way, for challenge runs and the like). Some of the problems with missile knockdowns could be fixed if entrenched was easier to get. A 'brace and shoot 1 weapon' option might be good, it'd make the mediocre precise shot pilot ability a little better; or even if you got entrenched automatically if you chose not to move. A `Mech that's standing still should be harder to knock on its rear end. Likewise, giving evasive a downside by doubling the stability damage an evasive `Mech takes could be a good counter. You can dodge but if you do take damage while you're darting and weaving it's more likely to trip you up.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:52
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chutche2 posted:In tabletop the mech is salvageable but unrepeairable. You could still reuse the arms and legs. If only the mechs I fight still had arms after I'm done. At least I'd never run out of legs. 
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Jun 3, 2017 19:57
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Yeah, it is. I think Evasion should be a function of distance moved, with the skill making the pilot more efficient (for example one unit of movement with Evasion being worth two units without). Evasion is easily countered by Sensor Lock. Which also removes the defensive movement modifier. Making it very easy to kill light mechs.
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Jun 3, 2017 20:07
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Evasives problem is that it does too much for too little. An effective 50 percent reduction in damage just for moving is really really really good. Bulwark requires you to stand still, sensor lock requires not shooting, multi target splits damage, angel of death requires you to do a risky DFA. Evasive gives you a bonus for doing something you were going to do anyway.
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Jun 3, 2017 20:12
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PoptartsNinja posted:Some of the problems with missile knockdowns could be fixed if entrenched was easier to get. A 'brace and shoot 1 weapon' option might be good, it'd make the mediocre precise shot pilot ability a little better; or even if you got entrenched automatically if you chose not to move. A `Mech that's standing still should be harder to knock on its rear end. Likewise, giving evasive a downside by doubling the stability damage an evasive `Mech takes could be a good counter. You can dodge but if you do take damage while you're darting and weaving it's more likely to trip you up. Shouldn't evasive slightly-more-than-double stab damage in that scenario? Since Evasive itself is reducing your hits by half, doubling stab damage just gets you back to normal stability damage. So maybe slightly more than 200%, but not a ton, maybe 210 or 220? That's just spitballing off the top of my head, though.
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Jun 3, 2017 20:18
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Just for the record Daton, I don't think anyone has an issue with 'Evasive' as a result of Sprinting. It's 'Evasive Move' that gives you 'Evasive any time you move (does not apply to backing up, btw) that's problematic. Put that on a heavily armored Mech, keep it in Cover and moving and you get 25% damage reduction and a 50% chance to dodge the attacks. On something like an Atlas, you can weather an absurd amount of damage. When I used it I put my Atlas on point to draw as much fire as I could and the AI still couldn't get a single section of that Mech down to internals. Not even close.
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Jun 3, 2017 20:19
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