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DatonKallandor
Aug 21, 2009

"I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."
Well yeah the Evasive Pilot talent is too good, but still countered by sensor lock - and there's only one pilot that has it. There's always more targets to shoot - and if it's something like an Atlas that has it it's not that hard to stay out of range. Your example of the Atlas tanking the entire enemy lance is a really great example of the AI simply being unable to handle evasive. It does not know to not shoot that mech and it's incapable of sensor locking.

Edit: vvv Entirely possible, and it avoids the XCOM problem where giving your soldiers more defense means your other soldiers get shot instead - good for the campaign, but for skirmish it's too exploitable.

DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jun 3, 2017

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Ardlen
Sep 30, 2005
WoT



I wonder if part of that is the AI not realizing how bad its tohits are. If it is looking at the percentages without evasive, that would go a long way in explaining the behavior.

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004

DatonKallandor posted:

Well yeah the Evasive Pilot talent is too good, but still countered by sensor lock - and there's only one pilot that has it

The full game will almost certainly have more pilots and the UI has slots for up to 3 more pilot sklils, meaning someone could have evasive and other skills. A hard counter thats only useful because another skill is so good is boring and means you HAVE to take it. This also adds another level of what makes evasive so good: it means at least one opponent isn't returning fire that round.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









PoptartsNinja posted:

drat good ideas

I particularly like pairing evasive with increased stability damage, even if just a small amount, seems fair and logical alongside its risk/reward gameplay effect.

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.


Re: Stability damage from LRMs:

We were discussing this on discord, and I think I've got a recommendation: Rather than just nerfing stability damage from LRMs, make it so they have diminishing returns in a given volley. Get hit with 5 LRMs out of a volley? They do normal stability damage they do now. Get hit by 10? They do like 75%. As the successful hits in a single attack from LRMs increase, the amount of stab damage added decreases. Fluff wise, this is the enemy pilot having long enough (due to the length of the volley) to start adjusting to the force of the hits. Game wise, this makes LRMs en masse less knockdown prone, without nerfing the mechs that have a couple of LRM5s for long range support.

Feindfeuer
Jun 20, 2013

shoot men, receive credits
Sounds like a solid idea, but I can't resist saying: Ghost Stability.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug
I haven’t used inspire because that’s what sensor lock is for :v: “Hmm, I COULD use inspire? Oh my hit odds are already 90-100% and he’s had his evasive removed.” Does inspire bypass evasive, on that note? I'd assume it does if it's supposed to be a big deal. Time to double check the manual!

DatonKallandor posted:

Good at it's job, which is getting you some big defense at the cost of all offense, but not game breaking. It's sometimes a good option, often a bad option. It's a pretty nunanced mecahnic - that contributes to the AI not really knowing to to use it (and obviously not having the ability to use sensor lock doesn't exactly make evasive look worse).

I'm also struggling to make the AI perform well. Give it a balanced loadout or a brawler setup, including only pilots the AI can acutally activate, and it's refusal to send all the mechs into the fight at once just kills it. Give it a bunch of LRM boats, and it'll get it's spotter killed immediately. Maybe I'll have to give it one tanky heavier brawler to spot and some cheaper budget LRM boats?

So the often good AI, suffers from the fact it can’t “Spot” by hiding behind a mountain going :f5: and in fact, is forced to scout the old fashioned way? Hmm… I mean, I'm all for giving the players a slight skill usage edge over the AI (an important factor in a campaign setting where you will always be outnumbered in the long run, rather than even skirmishes). But it does highlight the situation further.

Sky Shadowing posted:

For those who want to create their own MechWarriors (portraits included), there's a far easier way to do so than the guide I posted earlier.

Linked Here.

Hopefully this sort of thing is still handy, or even more so, for launch. Man From Volta needs to branch out in his mercenary contracts.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jun 4, 2017

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

We're fucking built for this shit!

Section Z posted:

So the often good AI, suffers from the fact it can’t “Spot” by hiding behind a mountain going :f5: and in fact, is forced to scout the old fashioned way? Hmm… I mean, I'm all for giving the players a slight skill usage edge over the AI (an important factor in a campaign setting where you will always be outnumbered in the long run, rather than even skirmishes). But it does highlight the situation further.

According to one of the devs, the AI only "understands" a couple of the abilities right now. So it can't use most of them.

DatonKallandor
Aug 21, 2009

"I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."
It's in the manual. Some of the pilot attribute values also don't do everything they're supposed to, like piloting making it harder to unbalance you.

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.


Feindfeuer posted:

Sounds like a solid idea, but I can't resist saying: Ghost Stability.

No, no! This is entirely different! You can't... I was just trying to...

:negative:

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

We're fucking built for this shit!

Zaodai posted:

No, no! This is entirely different! You can't... I was just trying to...

:negative:

It's okay Paul, you don't have to hide who you truly are from us any more...

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

The Suffering of the Succotash.
You know what's nice about this game? Lights have to respect bigger mechs at point blank range.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









bbbut ssccouting from the fronttt

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

DatonKallandor posted:

It's in the manual. Some of the pilot attribute values also don't do everything they're supposed to, like piloting making it harder to unbalance you.

Ok so I think the beta might benefit from the main menu having a big text box with 'this works, this doesn't, in this version we'd like feedback on x'.

Theorycrafting on stability is pointless if one of the main balance mechanics isn't in place yet. I presume pilot injuries will degrade skill in battle as an attrition mechanic.

FAKE edit: heh, 'balance mechanic

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









is the manual a pdf? can someone post it?

Rhymenoserous
May 23, 2008

DatonKallandor posted:

If only the mechs I fight still had arms after I'm done. At least I'd never run out of legs. :toot:

I'm envisioning an urbanmech with legs glued on where it's arms should be just using that 360 torso twist to walk around the field kicking people, non stop.

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam :)
Never be afraid of being yourself!


A.o.D. posted:

You know what's nice about this game? Lights have to respect bigger mechs at point blank range.

It's even nice when they don't and it's melee time.

JacksLibido
Jul 21, 2004

Gwaihir posted:

The AC10 (and 5, and 2) blew complete rear end in tt, it needed a buff. 25 more damage is ok when you're taking a shorter range, explosive ammo, and far more critical slots.

So far the game is extremely close range, I don't think I've ever been at a point where AC10s were out of range and PPCs were the way to go.

sebmojo posted:

bbbut ssccouting from the fronttt

Lol because scouting from the rear is the most logical way to scout.

Rygar201 posted:

While I get that Read the Manual isn't going to cut it for a lot of people, I am going to make this argument anyway.

Evasive is displayed by the enemy 'mech and you will often know that the enemy 'mech will have sprinted. Evasive isn't a hit malus (a 50% hit malus would actually be weaker than Evasive), it works like other defensive buffs.


Hopefully this is clearly communicated by the in game tutorial at release, since I know people don't like to read Owner's Manuals.



Rather than having to memorize percentages and icons they could just as easily multiply all my hit percentages by 50% at the point that dodge is calculated and let me know in one single spot what my no poo poo hit chance is.

Zaodai posted:

Re: Stability damage from LRMs:

We were discussing this on discord, and I think I've got a recommendation: Rather than just nerfing stability damage from LRMs, make it so they have diminishing returns in a given volley. Get hit with 5 LRMs out of a volley? They do normal stability damage they do now. Get hit by 10? They do like 75%. As the successful hits in a single attack from LRMs increase, the amount of stab damage added decreases. Fluff wise, this is the enemy pilot having long enough (due to the length of the volley) to start adjusting to the force of the hits. Game wise, this makes LRMs en masse less knockdown prone, without nerfing the mechs that have a couple of LRM5s for long range support.

This will either 1. encourage everybody to boat LRM 5s, or 2. accomplish the exact same thing as reducing stability damage across the board for LRMs 3. Still keep stability damage too high; depending on how they'd implement this.

DatonKallandor posted:

Well yeah the Evasive Pilot talent is too good, but still countered by sensor lock - and there's only one pilot that has it. There's always more targets to shoot - and if it's something like an Atlas that has it it's not that hard to stay out of range. Your example of the Atlas tanking the entire enemy lance is a really great example of the AI simply being unable to handle evasive. It does not know to not shoot that mech and it's incapable of sensor locking.

Edit: vvv Entirely possible, and it avoids the XCOM problem where giving your soldiers more defense means your other soldiers get shot instead - good for the campaign, but for skirmish it's too exploitable.

Honestly evasive is good but I haven't noticed it really affecting my games apart from me wasting a single volley on a dude. If it's the enemy running up to start the engagement then I just hunker down and wait for it to wear off. If it's the enemy trying to get behind me to snipe from the rear I just melee. I think maybe it's because I usually focus down single targets? I just go for whoever isn't evasive.

Now the mechwarrior skill that gives ALL moves evasive, that's something I can see being abused like mad in multiplayer and probably needs to be removed.

JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Jun 4, 2017

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.


JacksLibido posted:



This will either 1. encourage everybody to boat LRM 5s, or 2. accomplish the exact same thing as reducing stability damage across the board for LRMs 3. Still keep stability damage too high; depending on how they'd implement this.

No, see, it's not by launcher size, but volley size. 5 LRM5s is still 25 missiles. if 15 of those hit, you're still getting reduced stab. Also, boating LRM5s is fine since there's limited hardpoints, if you want to dedicate all your missile slots to babby launchers, that's up to you.

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam :)
Never be afraid of being yourself!


Zaodai posted:

babby launchers

Do CapCon get a warcrimes bonus to using these?

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.


Chronojam posted:

Do CapCon get a warcrimes bonus to using these?

Only the Inferno Babby Launchers. We discussed them in depth in PTN's thread, in fact!

Welmu
Oct 9, 2007
Metri. Piiri. Sekunti.

sebmojo posted:

is the manual a pdf? can someone post it?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/www.harebrained-schemes.com/backer-beta/manual.pdf

PoptartsNinja
May 9, 2008

He is still almost definitely not a spy


Soiled Meat


This would be my suggestion for a UI improvement (if you don't want to factor evasive into the hit percentages directly, which you should). A space above the weapons for all of the target's modifiers, plus some way to show whether it's been sensor locked yet in case you bring multiple and are trying to decide whether to shoot or lock and can't remember which `Mech you clicked on.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Rygar201 posted:

Isildur, do you know if there are/plans to add animations for mechs falling forward too?

Unless it rolled onto its back while falling forward people would complain they can't shoot the back armor when a mech face planted.

Actually can you back shoot a fallen mech from behind while they're on the ground?

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.


PoptartsNinja posted:



This would be my suggestion for a UI improvement (if you don't want to factor evasive into the hit percentages directly, which you should). A space above the weapons for all of the target's modifiers, plus some way to show whether it's been sensor locked yet in case you bring multiple and are trying to decide whether to shoot or lock and can't remember which `Mech you clicked on.

The icons over the weapon HUD part is a perfect mock up of what I had in mind. And about a billion times less poo poo then if I had made a mock-up myself. :v:

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I have a really minor UI suggestion: when setting up battles, it would be nice if the MAP and MOOD dropdowns were swapped around. Currently mood is at the top but because mood is map-dependent it therefore resets if you pick a mood then pick a map.

Of course it's possible this is all placeholder anyway, but this particular arrangement seems the wrong way around to me.

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam :)
Never be afraid of being yourself!


Really wish the launch screen would make a noise or blink when ready. Minor but I like to alt tab while games are loading or use my phone.

Myrmidongs
Oct 26, 2010

John Charity Spring posted:

I have a really minor UI suggestion: when setting up battles, it would be nice if the MAP and MOOD dropdowns were swapped around. Currently mood is at the top but because mood is map-dependent it therefore resets if you pick a mood then pick a map.

Of course it's possible this is all placeholder anyway, but this particular arrangement seems the wrong way around to me.

I want a text-box search to find mechs.

Rygar201
Jan 26, 2011
I AM A TERRIBLE PIECE OF SHIT.

Please Condescend to me like this again.

Oh yeah condescend to me ALL DAY condescend daddy.


Myrmidongs posted:

I want a text-box search to find mechs.

Cosigned

Bubbacub
Apr 17, 2001

The AI seems to know how to drive an Atlas well. I lost 3 of my mechs to one. I was down to my wounded Awesome when the Atlas overheated and shut down, and I killed with with 2 PPCs to the head. :woop:

JacksLibido
Jul 21, 2004

Zaodai posted:

No, see, it's not by launcher size, but volley size. 5 LRM5s is still 25 missiles. if 15 of those hit, you're still getting reduced stab. Also, boating LRM5s is fine since there's limited hardpoints, if you want to dedicate all your missile slots to babby launchers, that's up to you.

Then reducing stability damage from missiles across the board would accomplish the same thing and be much easier to implement.

On another note, it would be really handy if they gave you a simple paper doll that showed armor for each section and just weapons loadout when you're selecting mechs. As is I double click the mech, find something that looks good, then have to scroll through to see what is actually on it and it's quite annoying. I also have no idea how much armor is actually on the mech aside from a slider that doesn't really tell me a lot.

Also, the game seems... dim. Everything being darkened from the fog of war just makes the whole thing seem kinda muddled.

JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jun 4, 2017

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

We're fucking built for this shit!
Yeah, I agree. I think Mech selection would be better if it just straight up used the in-game paper doll. That would tell you a sections armor, structure and what it contained simply by hovering your mouse over it.

Zaodai
May 23, 2009

Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.


JacksLibido posted:

Then reducing stability damage from missiles across the board would accomplish the same thing and be much easier to implement.

Except it wouldn't? If 5 missiles from an LRM 20 get through to an evasive target or something, and you universally drop stab damage across the board, they get reduced stab damage. If you have DR, those 5 hit for full stab damage, but an LRM 20 with all of them hitting would have scaling on it.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





I'm really looking forward to multiplayer. The AI just isn't enough of a challenge right now.

JacksLibido
Jul 21, 2004

Zaodai posted:

Except it wouldn't? If 5 missiles from an LRM 20 get through to an evasive target or something, and you universally drop stab damage across the board, they get reduced stab damage. If you have DR, those 5 hit for full stab damage, but an LRM 20 with all of them hitting would have scaling on it.

That's just retarded though. At that point why don't you just make everybody walk around with stability damage if 1-2 missiles will do 80% of the stability damage 20 will? That's just flat dumb. I tried to think of what you could mean that wasn't stupid, but if it really is that then dude, no.

Iymarra
Oct 4, 2010




Survived AGDQ 2018 Awful Games block!
Grimey Drawer
So I've edited the mechwarrior file to create my own pilot but I can't seem to find a way of getting them to actually populate in the selectable list. Anyone got a suggestion?

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

We're fucking built for this shit!

JacksLibido posted:

That's just retarded though. At that point why don't you just make everybody walk around with stability damage if 1-2 missiles will do 80% of the stability damage 20 will? That's just flat dumb. I tried to think of what you could mean that wasn't stupid, but if it really is that then dude, no.

His idea has one, specific advantage to it. It lets you nerf the 15 and 20 without damaging the LRM 5 which already kind of sucks.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)

Innerguard posted:

So I've edited the mechwarrior file to create my own pilot but I can't seem to find a way of getting them to actually populate in the selectable list. Anyone got a suggestion?

You've gotta go into the VersionManifest.csv file in the StreamingAssets/data folder. Find the other pilots and copy the line.

If you've added a custom picture add it here too, find an example picture (i.e. Mockingbird), delete the mwportraits line (just make it blank and leave the comma). I posted a link to a guide earlier that details the exact process from beginning to end.

JacksLibido
Jul 21, 2004

Q_res posted:

His idea has one, specific advantage to it. It lets you nerf the 15 and 20 without damaging the LRM 5 which already kind of sucks.

The LRM5 doesn't suck though, it does exactly what it's supposed to: give you long range firepower at a budget weight/cost. By making it the knockdown king you're adding in an extra variable to a system that never needed/was built for it. Should we give quirks to small lasers? Mediums? Larges? What about the different flavor of SRM? You pick sizes based off weight/heat/cost, not quirks.

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Amechwarrior
Jan 29, 2007

WOO!




I just beat the Light Assault team on Alpine Peaks with 4 Locusts and no losses, first attempt. I feel like that mechcommander in the MC1 intro after he has taken down that Timber Wolf. I figured I would need a map like Alpine Peaks to isolate the enemies. The Kintaro and Hunchback came first and actually did an OK job of staying together. I used sensor lock and the one LRM Locust to pester them down and got a few good rear shots on the Kintaro before the Hunch really got to the engagement. Then I lead them up my hill and isolated them, finishing both with rear shots. One enemy Urbire didn't bother crossing the river and my LRM Locust was empty, but fresh. So I regrouped as one urbie crossed the river which was quickly isolated and destroyed. The last one was on a plateau overlooking their side of the river chasm. Sprinted my damaged Locusts to the other side and used my fresh ones to engage and close. Sweet buttmeat was mine and the match was done.

If anyone is getting used to the AI and feels it is too easy, do this challenge. I was very lucky and not a single AC/20 connected, but I don't think it fired more than once or twice. One hit was all it would have needed. I would break LOS with the hunch and then reserve my whole team until it moved. I would run in, do what I could and then sprint out on the next round. If it went evasive I would just sensor lock it, if not, that Locust got to shoot.

Isildur, thank you and the HBS team. This is the kind of Battletech game I have been waiting for. I think I read on the forum or somewhere that the all locust vs Light Assault was some kind of internal challenge, is that true? Where ever I read that is how I got the idea to try this.

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