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Leperflesh posted:People like Honnold (I don't know about him particularly, but people like him) are operating on the false "gut feel" that if bad luck hasn't killed them after a hundred or two hundred or five hundred climbs, then the risk must be relatively low. Because humans are terrible at evaluating and "feeling" the difference between, say, a 1/500 chance of a terrible thing happening and a 1/50000 chance of a terrible thing happening, even though the former is a hundred times more likely than the latter, and likely enough that in a decade or two of climbing with 1/500 odds of bad luck killing you on every climb... bad luck is projected to probably kill you. Climbing is his entire life, I'm sure he is well aware of the risks and it has nothing to do with a gut feeling. And as someone previously posted he doesn't free solo that often. He also trained for a year with the primary focus of free soloing El Cap, there really isn't room for gut feelings in an undertaking like that, its training and discipline. Destro fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jun 7, 2017 |
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Jun 7, 2017 00:19
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Mr. Despair posted:http://m.nautil.us/issue/39/sport/the-strange-brain-of-the-worlds-greatest-solo-climber lmao i like the story about how his worst climbing injury ever was caused by his girlfriend letting go of his rope while lowering him to the ground guess he's literally safer while free soloing
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Jun 7, 2017 03:34
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Leperflesh posted:People like Honnold (I don't know about him particularly, but people like him) are operating on the false "gut feel" that if bad luck hasn't killed them after a hundred or two hundred or five hundred climbs, then the risk must be relatively low. Because humans are terrible at evaluating and "feeling" the difference between, say, a 1/500 chance of a terrible thing happening and a 1/50000 chance of a terrible thing happening, even though the former is a hundred times more likely than the latter, and likely enough that in a decade or two of climbing with 1/500 odds of bad luck killing you on every climb... bad luck is projected to probably kill you. I love it when people tell me how it is when they have no idea what they're talking about.
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Jun 7, 2017 17:47
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nsaP posted:I love it when people tell me how it is when they have no idea what they're talking about. A...Alex???
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Jun 7, 2017 20:16
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nsaP posted:I love it when people tell me how it is when they have no idea what they're talking about. F'real. People who try to quantify risk of 'extreme' activities seem to do an awful lot of closed-minded thinking where they disregard the incredibly high level of preparation people who take their poo poo seriously go through. It's not gut feel for Honnold to know he can climb El' Capitan without mistakes, he's trained his body and repeated the effort protected many times before making the attempt. If he winged El' Capitan on gut feel we'd be talking about a dead climber but he's not an idiot, so we aren't. Many people's relationship with physical risk is all sorts of hosed up these days. Many will go their whole life without having to train/practice to offset a physical risk, such that when people decide to pick up an activity that has physical risk involved, they don't appreciate the risks nor how it is necessary to offset risk through training and preparation. They see other people partaking in a risky activity and think they MUST be foolhardy thrill seekers thumbing their nose at the odds, and then hopping back into their car for a statistically more likely vehicular death.
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Jun 7, 2017 23:24
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Maluco Marinero posted:F'real. People who try to quantify risk of 'extreme' activities seem to do an awful lot of closed-minded thinking where they disregard the incredibly high level of preparation people who take their poo poo seriously go through. It's not gut feel for Honnold to know he can climb El' Capitan without mistakes, he's trained his body and repeated the effort protected many times before making the attempt. If you listen very carefully, you might be able to hear the voice Ueli Steck, calling from beyond the grave. I think he's saying... "You're a loving idiot"
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Jun 8, 2017 00:02
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Dongsturm posted:If you listen very carefully, you might be able to hear the voice Ueli Steck, calling from beyond the grave. I think he's saying... But, but why sir? Why am I loving idiot? Is it because I believe that training can offset risk more than people realise? Or is it because you believe I think preparation negates risk entirely? (I don't)
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Jun 8, 2017 00:27
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Worrying about other what other people do with their lives is pretty dumb hth
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Jun 8, 2017 00:35
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Dongsturm posted:If you listen very carefully, you might be able to hear the voice Ueli Steck, calling from beyond the grave. I think he's saying... You are right all of humanity should stop doing dangerous sports obviously everyone who does them is a loving idiot with no idea of the risks because why would they want to do something that might cause them to die in the process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deaths_in_sport Probably should just make everything on that page illegal as a good first step.
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Jun 8, 2017 00:47
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Let's split the difference and just stop having the Isle of Man TT E: Didn't realize it was happening right now, new thread fodder: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaefell_Mountain_Course_fatalities At 269 fatalities, this motorcycle race was probably deadlier than everest before those avalanches tipped the scale. shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 00:56
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This is like the inverse of the goon rush that asked for people to not post death photos.
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Jun 8, 2017 01:04
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VOTE YES ON 69 posted:Worrying about other what other people do with their lives is pretty dumb hth
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Jun 8, 2017 01:08
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Never Forget Rally Group B https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVpa-VV1_qo
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Jun 8, 2017 01:45
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Maluco Marinero posted:But, but why sir? Why am I loving idiot? Is it because I believe that training can offset risk more than people realise? Or is it because you believe I think preparation negates risk entirely? (I don't) If training offset risk as much as you're implying, the most highly trained and experienced climbers would not get killed on mountains. The fact that they do, regularly, is proof that no amount of preparation can offset the risk to the degree that poo poo like free climbing el capitan becomes equivalent to ordinary activities that most people consider to carry acceptable risk. VOTE YES ON 69 posted:Worrying about other what other people do with their lives is pretty dumb hth Who is worried? I feel really bad for the spouses and kids, though, and I think it's basically wrong to encourage people to take extremely dangerous, deadly risks for leisure activities that have no real value to society beyond entertainment. Destro posted:Climbing is his entire life, I'm sure he is well aware of the risks and it has nothing to do with a gut feeling. And as someone previously posted he doesn't free solo that often. He also trained for a year with the primary focus of free soloing El Cap, there really isn't room for gut feelings in an undertaking like that, its training and discipline. I'm certain he's aware of the risks. But my previous point is that human beings are not actually capable of emotionally appreciating the difference between a moderately unlikely event and an extremely unlikely event, and usually we conflate the two. And secondarily, no amount of training can prevent random chance from killing you when all it takes is a rock you're clinging to that looks like it's secure to come loose, or a sudden unexpected gust of wind to catch you off guard, or the ice above you to come loose in an unexpected avalanche, or any of the myriad other ways in which highly experienced and capable climbers die every year. regarding the deaths-in-sports reference, it's a matter of death rate, which has to be adjusted for how many people and how many sporting events, you can't really learn anything at all from absolute numbers. That said, the Isle of Man race is loving insane and yeah everyone who does it is an idiot. No amount of training can remove the risk because it's a race on public roads with spectators, weather, random poo poo in the road, and myriad other uncontrollable factors. It's the reason Group B rally was ultimately canceled, and it's grossly irresponsible for the organizers to continue to run Isle of Man knowing full well that it's going to continue to kill people at a stupidly high rate. I'm not saying that people shouldn't engage in fun sports that carry a modest risk. And I'm not even claiming to know exactly where the line is that a risky sport/leisure activity becomes too risky to countenance. But I can say with confidence that freeclimbing thousands of feet of sheer rock, hauling tourists up to the summit of everest, attempting to climb K2, quite a lot of cave diving, and the Isle of Man race are all highly, highly questionable. Climbing everest or freeclimbing el capitan etc. shouldn't necessarily be banned, I'm not in favor of legal restrictions on risking your own life, but we shouldn't be praising these people or admiring them for their "achievements" either.
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Jun 8, 2017 01:47
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Leperflesh posted:If training offset risk as much as you're implying, the most highly trained and experienced climbers would not get killed on mountains. The fact that they do, regularly, is proof that no amount of preparation can offset the risk to the degree that poo poo like free climbing el capitan becomes equivalent to ordinary activities that most people consider to carry acceptable risk. lol on a purely statistical life expectancy basis, you're taking a far bigger risk than them by being a sedentary fatass
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Jun 8, 2017 01:56
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Zo posted:lol on a purely statistical life expectancy basis, you're taking a far bigger risk than them by being a sedentary fatass That's true, the only alternative to taking insane risks with ropeless climbing etc. is sitting on one's rear end, there's absolutely no middle ground
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Jun 8, 2017 01:57
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Leperflesh posted:That's true, the only alternative to taking insane risks with ropeless climbing etc. is sitting on one's rear end, there's absolutely no middle ground i know you're kinda slow but the point is that you're getting really mad over people doing cool stuff while hundreds of millions of people are talking far bigger risks by not exercising also lol, just lol at your scare quoting "achievements"
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Jun 8, 2017 02:01
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I don't have a problem with people putting themselves in dangerous situations for fun if they know the risks. That doesn't mean I think they're smart for doing it, but hey, it's their life, they can decide to risk it if they want, whether or not they're doing it for something that has a "value to society." And I can appreciate someone who does something that requires a great feat of strength or agility, whether or not that has a value to society either. Don't be so concerned with how other people live their lives, man.
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Jun 8, 2017 02:23
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There's a difference between having your rich rear end dragged up a mountain by sherpas versus training for a year to do something nobody on earth has done before and few on earth even can. The first is not just pathetic - it's risking the lives of people who are only there because they need to make a living. That's something I can't abide by.
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Jun 8, 2017 02:25
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Leperflesh posted:That's true, the only alternative to taking insane risks with ropeless climbing etc. is sitting on one's rear end, there's absolutely no middle ground Maaaaate, people take bigger risks in industry than these folks do. To work in offshore oil & gas you need to learn how to get out of a helicopter that's ditched in the sea. People have vaporised themselves by cracking bolts on the wrong pipeline. People have been horribly disfigured by improperly designed shielding/protection. A modern lifestyle is built on the backs of people taking far greater risks than these guys are. Even in environments where thrill isn't the aim, we haven't fully controlled risk and likely never will be able to mitigate it entirely due to nature being nature.
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Jun 8, 2017 02:26
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Leperflesh posted:If training offset risk as much as you're implying, the most highly trained and experienced climbers would not get killed on mountains. The fact that they do, regularly, is proof that no amount of preparation can offset the risk to the degree that poo poo like free climbing el capitan becomes equivalent to ordinary activities that most people consider to carry acceptable risk. Humans also have an innate desire to accomplish things. Free soloing El Cap after climbing for 20 years is definitely praiseworthy it is an amazing feat that stands as a testament to what humans are really able to achieve. If we never gave into our desire for adventure and curiosity we'd still be hitting things with sticks. Space travel is an extremely dangerous endeavor, there is no possible way to have zero risk, your argument suggests that space travel or anything with a high risk factor is not praiseworthy or an achievement. Alex seems to be able to control his emotions in such a way that allows him to have extreme confidence in being able to climb without falling. He is a naturally gifted climber, I really see no problem with him doing what he loves to do. It seems crazy to anyone looking in, but try and look at it from a climbers perspective. You are right that many people shouldn't be on Everest, the fact that it isn't a technical climb and only requires you to be in good shape and have alot of money opens that door for many unqualified individuals. You don't see those same tourists climbing K2 or Annapurna though.
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Jun 8, 2017 02:40
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Leperflesh posted:Who is worried? I feel really bad for the spouses and kids, though, and I think it's basically wrong to encourage people to take extremely dangerous, deadly risks for leisure activities that have no real value to society beyond entertainment.  Think of the children!
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Jun 8, 2017 02:42
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All astronauts are now required to be single and have no kids
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Jun 8, 2017 03:51
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The adrenaline rush after nearly getting seriously hurt/killed is an amazing feeling, half this thread should get away from a computer long enough to experience it sometime.
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Jun 8, 2017 04:11
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Mr. Despair posted:The adrenaline rush after nearly getting seriously hurt/killed is an amazing feeling, half this thread should get away from a computer long enough to experience it sometime. It's such a great rush that you kinda don't really care about that car that hit you! Until you get to work and throw up outside the door from the body wracking pain. Didn't even notice for half an hour.
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Jun 8, 2017 04:14
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Is this the thread where we compare the danger of one thing that is statistically dangerous because of the sheer volume of people that do it versus the thing that is dangerous because it's actually life threatening?
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Jun 8, 2017 04:20
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Well the trick is to get to the point where you get that rush without actually getting hurt!
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Jun 8, 2017 04:20
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Honnold climbs all day and lives in a van. The news that he has a gf is mildly shocking to me. I guess you could feel bad for his mom.
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Jun 8, 2017 04:23
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nsaP posted:Honnold climbs all day and lives in a van. The news that he has a gf is mildly shocking to me. I guess you could feel bad for his mom. I would feel worse for his girlfriend's mom. "Oh, your daughter is dating a doctor? My daughter is dating a guy who climbs up rocks or something and lives in a van."
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Jun 8, 2017 04:24
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Cojawfee posted:I would feel worse for his girlfriend's mom. "Oh, your daughter is dating a doctor? My daughter is dating a guy who climbs up rocks or something and lives in a van." He's had a National Geographic article about his brass balls, fitness, and dedication. I think he'd be well accepted in most polite company. Jesus Christ goons.
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Jun 8, 2017 04:27
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Hi there welcome to somethingawful.com comedy website. We have the funny here nice to meet you.
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Jun 8, 2017 04:31
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his girlfriend's parents actually climbs with them on easier routes the autists come out in force whenever somebody mentions "girlfriend" though
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Jun 8, 2017 04:33
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Just  at all you nerds who haven't ever climbed anything. I can tell you why he does it.Because. Trust me, that's the answer.
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Jun 8, 2017 05:17
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Mountain looks exciting, September release can't come soon enough.
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Jun 8, 2017 09:32
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Maluco Marinero posted:But, but why sir? Why am I loving idiot? Is it because I believe that training can offset risk more than people realise? Or is it because you believe I think preparation negates risk entirely? (I don't) Lol, your hero and idol has two cracked vertebrae because he picked a rope that was 10 feet too short. His stupid, careless girlfriend dropped him because she hosed up and didn't tie a knot in the end like all of us inferior normal climbers. And for some reason the "Stupid Deaths on Everest" thread is full of you hero worshipping fuckwits who try to compare him to astronauts or other competent people who can subtract 50 feet from 60 feet and get the correct answer.
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Jun 8, 2017 11:20
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Dongsturm posted:Lol, your hero and idol has two cracked vertebrae because he picked a rope that was 10 feet too short. His stupid, careless girlfriend dropped him because she hosed up and didn't tie a knot in the end like all of us inferior normal climbers. Yes, clearly my post history casts me as someone who idolises this guy. When you're done beating up your straw man with a side helping of misogyny maybe you'll be a whole lot less angry about things?
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Jun 8, 2017 11:36
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If you can't have a discussion without being lovely to each other then get the gently caress out this thread has a lot of cool poo poo in it up until the point where there's a mild disagreement and then people lose their poo poo. Posting cool poo poo is a lot more interesting than the freak outs Levitate fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jun 8, 2017 |
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Jun 8, 2017 13:02
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Well ok, here's some cool poo poo for starters. Though I think it might have shown up here last year too! https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-way-too-much-human-faeces-on-mount-everest-experts-have-warned
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Jun 8, 2017 13:26
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Is it more poo poo than Denali or is Denali still king poo poo mountain?
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Jun 8, 2017 14:35
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That's some poo poo
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Jun 8, 2017 15:08
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