World of Darkness Megathread: Curse of the Were-Poster

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Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

What happens if a Demon learns the High Speech? :getin:

# ? Jun 8, 2017 20:50

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 15:19

Daeren: Aug 18, 2009; YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

What happens if a Demon learns the High Speech?

They actually cover that edge case, sort of!

quote:

Demons only speak native languages, however. No one in modern times grows up speaking ancient Sumerian or Latin, despite the fact that some scholars might have enough skill with these languages to understand them. Likewise, while enthusiasts might develop enough facility with artificial languages such as Tolkein�s Elvish, no one speaks the language as a native. Demons can learn to speak such languages through study, but not through Natural Aptitude. By the same token, demons can use Natural Aptitude to speak First Tongue (the �native language� of spirits), but not High Speech (the mystical tongue of the mages, no longer in common or conversational use).

Some Unchained have speculated that a small community of children, raised in isolation and taught to speak a dead or supernatural language, might allow all demons to circumvent this restriction� but the cruelty and the complexity of the experiment means it�s never been attempted.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 20:59

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Yeah but that's just saying the High Speech isn't covered by their polygot powers, not that they can't learn it the same way anyone else does.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:00

neaden: Nov 4, 2012; A changer of ways

Hmm, IIRC there is nothing about sleepwalkers or supernaturals learning High Speech. I would probably just say they can't. If a demon did learn somehow I would say they still can't lie, but everyone would still be nervous that they could.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:02

Daeren: Aug 18, 2009; YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Yeah but that's just saying the High Speech isn't covered by their polygot powers, not that they can't learn it the same way anyone else does.

Ah, true. But the way 2e describes it, the thing that makes High Speech function is Peripheral Mage Sight, as it's just glossolalia or gibberish to anyone else.

The full text:

quote:

High Speech is the symbolic language of the Supernal Realms that all mages learn to speak during their Awakenings. Statements made in it can alter reality itself, increasing a mage�s control over her magic when she invokes it during spellcasting. Because it consists entirely of the symbols of the Supernal Realms, the Lie conceals its true nature from Sleepers. The un-Awakened perceive it an unfamiliar language, glossolalia, or meaningless gibberish.

High Speech is not a real language, but the Supernal platonic ideal of �language.� It sounds like gibberish to mages, too, but their Peripheral Mage Sight responds to it and they know the information being imparted despite the sounds themselves being nonsense. A minor key has a different emotional effect than a major key, for example, and red evokes different memories and sensations than blue, but neither expresses something that can be directly translated into ordinary language. High Speech is similarly useless for conveying long messages but very effective at evoking intent or mood. Lies cannot be spoken in High Speech, but it is the only means of fully describing spells.

Awakened mages see and hear High Speech in all sorts of places they weren�t expecting it � short messages written in the architecture of buildings, warnings in the shape of a motorway seen from the air, advertisements that contain calls to arms, and the sounds of sacred animals making prayers to the Aether. Some of these messages are the result of mages writing things down, or incorporating High Speech into a design. Most aren�t. The Greek Pythias at Delphi were priestesses who, when exposed to certain fumes, ranted in tongues that the priests interpreted into prophecies. A mage would be able to hear what they were actually saying, even if the Pythia didn�t know herself. The same goes for certain Christian groups and mediums in the modern day � some of them spout High Speech without knowing it.

Are they the makers� marks of the Exarchs, as so many Seers claim; or are they symbols sent from the Supernal Realms to guide mages to Ascension, as no few Diamond mages believe? Whatever the truth, mages who investigate these inexplicable messages quite often uncover deeper Mysteries behind them.

So, yeah, demons as-written couldn't understand or learn it because it relies on mage-specific stuff. However, it's much more entertaining (and in line with Mage's themes of mysteries and weird bullshit) to say that if a demon did learn how to use it via some inexplicable event, they'd be able to use it in much more fluid and deceitful ways, and that this would terrify the poo poo out of everyone.

e:fb

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:05

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Daeren posted:

So, yeah, demons as-written couldn't understand or learn it because it relies on mage-specific stuff. However, it's much more entertaining (and in line with Mage's themes of mysteries and weird bullshit) to say that if a demon did learn how to use it via some inexplicable event, they'd be able to use it in much more fluid and deceitful ways, and that this would terrify the poo poo out of everyone.

Comedy option: if a Demon does learn High Speech, anything they describe or indicate through it is now true, with attendant consequences.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:07

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

I'm envisioning the "pen is blue" scene from Liar Liar but the entire time the walls are melting and liquids are bursting into cold flame while his phone laments being able to feel pain.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:10

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

Kurieg posted:

I'm envisioning the "pen is blue" scene from Liar Liar but the entire time the walls are melting and liquids are bursting into cold flame while his phone laments being able to feel pain.

And there's a mage who has a realization they made a terrible mistake, obviously.

I am totally stealing this idea for a campaign.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:14

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I don't remember or have access to the specifics, but isn't there an Embed that allows demons to reproduce the magic of other supernatural creatures? Could that be used to understand and speak High Speech?

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:16

Chernobyl Peace Prize: May 7, 2007; Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

That Old Tree posted:

I don't remember or have access to the specifics, but isn't there an Embed that allows demons to reproduce the magic of other supernatural creatures? Could that be used to understand and speak High Speech?

In a perfect world, they immediately learn how to speak a single phrase in High Speech, without knowing exactly what it is.

That phrase is invariably "I do not know High Speech."

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:32

Daeren: Aug 18, 2009; YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

That Old Tree posted:

I don't remember or have access to the specifics, but isn't there an Embed that allows demons to reproduce the magic of other supernatural creatures? Could that be used to understand and speak High Speech?

From Flowers of Hell:

quote:

Show of Power
Sometimes it isn�t enough for a demon to claim to be something she is not. Sometimes people want convincing proof, and this Exploit allows her to manufacture exactly that. The demon mimics the Merits or powers of another type of supernatural being (but not demon abilities). She can only emulate capabilities she has personally experienced � either as an observer or a target of the power. If the Exploit succeeds, the result is indistinguishable from an ordinary use of the mimicked power.
Show of Power only works for inherent abilities and powers that require reflexive or instant actions to use (no extended actions). Additionally, if at least one observer of the supernatural type she wishes to emulate is present for her use of this Exploit, a failed roll allows the witness to detect the demon�s occult chicanery.
Example Prerequisites: Deep Cover, Identity Theft
Dice Pool: Presence + Occult + Primum vs. highest Wits + Supernatural Tolerance of observers of emulated supernatural type
Action: Instant and contested or reflexive and contested
Cost: 1 Aether
Roll Results
Dramatic Failure: Not only does the demon fail to imitate the power, she loses the ability to use her Embeds, Exploits, and demon form abilities until the end of the scene.
Failure: No effect.
Success: The demon successfully mimics the ability. If it is an inherent ability or Merit, the demon benefits from it until the end of the scene. Otherwise it lasts as long as it ordinarily would and has the same effect as if the demon�s player had scored a single success on any required roll. For the purpose of abilities that take effects from the supernatural type�s Supernatural Tolerance, use the demon�s Primum rating.
Exceptional Success: The demon successfully mimics the ability as above. In addition, the power has the same effect as if the demon�s player had scored three successes on any required roll, or the demon may emulate an additional power without needing to activate the Exploit again although she must do so during the current turn or the next one.

Sitting back and scratching my head, yeah, I think this would let you activate Peripheral, Active, or Focused Mage Sight, which is what High Speech runs on textually. Or hell, just swipe the High Speech merit itself and argue hard enough.

The other way around it I could think of is the Prime 4 spell Apocalypse, which bestows Active Mage Sight to someone else, but if they're non-Awakened they can't shut it off, can barely parse the sensory and occult overload, and if the Willpower maintenance cost runs them out of points it burns out their eyes.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 21:32

I Am Just a Box: Jul 20, 2011; I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.

neaden posted:

The book says "it's very good at communicating facts, but can't be used to deliberately lie" which to me means you could say "I didn't murder him" and another Mage would believe you. Or at least that they'll believe that you believe that.

You can do that with the High Speech!

By casting Prime 2 "Words of Truth." The High Speech as mages use it isn't just a magical language. It's somewhere between a technical language for describing the mechanisms of the Arcana and being a magical process itself, and mages haven't pieced the whole language together, though there are entities such as supernal beings that speak it more fluently than mages. Just trying to hold a conversation in High Speech is something like trying to hold a conversation in spells themselves.

I would definitely consider the vaguely implied parallels with the native language of the ancient Rmoahals as presented in Witch Finders, a language so true that, indeed, anything spoken in it by a fluent speaker became truth even if it wasn't before.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 23:17

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

The Unlife Aquatic posted:

And there's a mage who has a realization they made a terrible mistake, obviously.

That's implying the mage (a) realizes they made a mistake, and (b) would own up to it to anyone including themselves.

'ha ha wow that's something, eh? I'm gonna buy another dot of gnosis with all the arcane xp I just got!" *conjures 5,000 shotguns*

# ? Jun 9, 2017 00:03

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

Yawgmoth posted:

That's implying the mage (a) realizes they made a mistake, and (b) would own up to it to anyone including themselves.

'ha ha wow that's something, eh? I'm gonna buy another dot of gnosis with all the arcane xp I just got!" *conjures 5,000 shotguns*

I actually use that comic to introduce my friends to Mage with the comment: "You're playing this guy.", funnily enough.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 00:05

MachineIV: Feb 28, 2017

Mors Rattus posted:

Still coming out, the KS was mishandled massively, now has new and better devs trying to salvage the shitshow Morke and Holden made.

As for David Hill...well, I am not privy to his contract and he is, but I would be really surprised if his resignation didn't trigger a penalty clause of some kind.

Nah. Not a thing with penalty clauses due to resignation. I was actually willing to fulfill everything for Changeling. I just told them I wasn't going to work on anything post-Changeling. At that point, they decided to tell me I was cut. I found out later that they'd been planning that for months, even going so far as to hire a replacement, meanwhile telling me every couple of weeks to keep my schedule open for revisions. They even told another developer not to pick me up for a big project, because I'd be too busy with Changeling.

It's more to do with the weird stipulations about dates in contracts. Technically, because of the vagueness of "final drafts" in relationship to due dates, an expert I've talked to has said that literally any project I've worked on in the past ten years, they could have just decided not to pay me and gotten away with it.

Without getting too unnecessarily detailed, imagine your first developed draft is due April 31st, and your final draft is due May 31st. Your contract says every day you're later than May 31st, they reserve the right to reduce your pay by 2%. Common wisdom says that the first draft is the first thing you throw up, then final is with the bout of necessary revisions. Sure. But, since "final" is not actually defined anywhere, pretty much any judge would assume "final" means "the words that actually go into the book after editing, layout, and errata revisions." Which of course could never happen before May 31st, even in the most optimistic possible scenario. This is doubly so considering editors often run late, and layout can sometimes inexplicably take a year.

So if they say, "We've decided we're just going to pay you for the 30% we're publishing instead of the 100% your contract says we're paying you for," you kinda have to take the 30%. They could technically decide it's 0%.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 00:58

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Working on a home brew Hunter compact - the Strange Resource Office, a division of Copeland Mutual Insurance.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 01:06

Archonex: May 2, 2012; MY OPINION IS SEERS OF THE THRONE PROPAGANDA IGNORE MY GNOSIS-IMPAIRED RAMBLINGS

MachineIV posted:

Nah. Not a thing with penalty clauses due to resignation. I was actually willing to fulfill everything for Changeling. I just told them I wasn't going to work on anything post-Changeling. At that point, they decided to tell me I was cut. I found out later that they'd been planning that for months, even going so far as to hire a replacement, meanwhile telling me every couple of weeks to keep my schedule open for revisions. They even told another developer not to pick me up for a big project, because I'd be too busy with Changeling.

It's more to do with the weird stipulations about dates in contracts. Technically, because of the vagueness of "final drafts" in relationship to due dates, an expert I've talked to has said that literally any project I've worked on in the past ten years, they could have just decided not to pay me and gotten away with it.

Without getting too unnecessarily detailed, imagine your first developed draft is due April 31st, and your final draft is due May 31st. Your contract says every day you're later than May 31st, they reserve the right to reduce your pay by 2%. Common wisdom says that the first draft is the first thing you throw up, then final is with the bout of necessary revisions. Sure. But, since "final" is not actually defined anywhere, pretty much any judge would assume "final" means "the words that actually go into the book after editing, layout, and errata revisions." Which of course could never happen before May 31st, even in the most optimistic possible scenario. This is doubly so considering editors often run late, and layout can sometimes inexplicably take a year.

So if they say, "We've decided we're just going to pay you for the 30% we're publishing instead of the 100% your contract says we're paying you for," you kinda have to take the 30%. They could technically decide it's 0%.

drat. All of that sounds incredibly scummy and i'm sorry to hear that the industry (And OPP especially.) is like this to you guys.

That they told a prospective employer to not hire you because you're currently busy with a project while planning on replacing you is especially egregious in it's dickishness.

Archonex fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jun 9, 2017

# ? Jun 9, 2017 05:50

MachineIV: Feb 28, 2017

Archonex posted:

drat. All of that sounds incredibly scummy and i'm sorry to hear that the industry (And OPP especially.) is like this to you guys.

That they told a prospective employer to not hire you because you're currently busy with a project while planning on replacing you is especially egregious in it's dickishness.

Yeah. And frankly? I'm sure they didn't mean it maliciously. They all have the best intentions in mind. But that doesn't mean it didn't leave me screwed out of my primary form of income for months, only to leave me finding out on the back end that my single biggest project of the year just... wasn't going to be paid out as I expected. Ironically, I even finally got the contract for that project after seven requests. It was the first contract I'd gotten for a development job since the CCP days I believe.

They might not have had malicious intent. But it sure hosed me thanks to their unwillingness to be up front, direct, and professional about it. Had they told me in, say, October that they wanted to remove me from the project, instead of waiting until March coincidentally RIGHT after I started complaining that White Wolf hired Zak and threw me under the bus, that would have been WAY different.

MachineIV fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jun 9, 2017

# ? Jun 9, 2017 12:02

Archonex: May 2, 2012; MY OPINION IS SEERS OF THE THRONE PROPAGANDA IGNORE MY GNOSIS-IMPAIRED RAMBLINGS

MachineIV posted:

Yeah. And frankly? I'm sure they didn't mean it maliciously. They all have the best intentions in mind. But that doesn't mean it didn't leave me screwed out of my primary form of income for months, only to leave me finding out on the back end that my single biggest project of the year just... wasn't going to be paid out as I expected. Ironically, I even finally got the contract for that project after seven requests. It was the first contract I'd gotten for a development job since the CCP days I believe.

They might not have had malicious intent. But it sure hosed me thanks to their unwillingness to be up front, direct, and professional about it. Had they told me in, say, October that they wanted to remove me from the project, instead of waiting until March coincidentally RIGHT after I started complaining that White Wolf hired Zak and threw me under the bus, that would have been WAY different.

I can imagine. I've been screwed over in a similar way by an employer in the past.

I'd be cautious about giving them a free pass on their mentality over it though. At least, on the management end of things. Like you said, they probably didn't actively mean it maliciously. However i've experienced that sort of mentality from employer's before and by setting up a replacement while not giving you notice they are definitely are putting the needs of their company over the well being and financial safety of their current employee. Just because they didn't see anything wrong with it didn't mean that they weren't doing something that was extremely messed up in industries that have better protections for employees.

I obviously can't speak to the situation in your industry but if your situation is anything like mine then they had simply written you off as a loss at some point and were solely focused on covering their asses from a business standpoint at the expense of yours. I've seen it happen to other people in and outside my field of work too, so I imagine it's not uncommon in other industries that have a trend of being exploitative.

Regardless, hopefully everything is going well for you now that you've moved on.

Archonex fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jun 9, 2017

# ? Jun 9, 2017 18:42

MachineIV: Feb 28, 2017

Archonex posted:

I can imagine. I've been screwed over in a similar way by an employer in the past.

I'd be cautious about giving them a free pass on their mentality over it though. At least, on the management end of things. Like you said, they probably didn't actively mean it maliciously. However i've experienced that sort of mentality from employer's before and by setting up a replacement while not giving you notice they are definitely are putting the needs of their company over the well being and financial safety of their current employee. Just because they didn't see anything wrong with it didn't mean that they weren't doing something that was extremely messed up in industries that have better protections for employees.

I obviously can't speak to the situation in your industry but if your situation is anything like mine then they had simply written you off as a loss at some point and were solely focused on covering their asses from a business standpoint at the expense of yours. I've seen it happen to other people in and outside my field of work too, so I imagine it's not uncommon in other industries that have a trend of being exploitative.

Regardless, hopefully everything is going well for you now that you've moved on.

Oh I'm definitely not giving them a pass. I'm just recognizing that they're not mustache-twirling villains or anything like that. Just people who made bad choices which hurt me.

That said, I'm enjoying doing my own thing. I released my first novel since ending that relationship, and I'm excitedly writing a second and third right now. So, there's that.

# ? Jun 11, 2017 08:38

Soonmot: Dec 19, 2002; Entrapta fucking loves robots; Grimey Drawer

The Facebook updates on More Than Night have been really interesting. I'm looking forward to see more developments there.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 03:01

ZiegeDame: Aug 21, 2005; YUKIMURAAAA!

I'd just like to take this moment to say What the gently caress Crafts skill

How is Cooking, Painting, Construction, and Welding all the same loving skill

Why is still a thing

Why, Crafts, why

why

That is all.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 03:45

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

ZiegeDame posted:

I'd just like to take this moment to say What the gently caress Crafts skill

How is Cooking, Painting, Construction, and Welding all the same loving skill

Why is still a thing

Why, Crafts, why

why

That is all.

If you can put points in no other mental skill, put them in Crafts. Just do.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 04:13

nofather: Aug 15, 2014

ZiegeDame posted:

I'd just like to take this moment to say What the gently caress Crafts skill

How is Cooking, Painting, Construction, and Welding all the same loving skill

I think they took Painting out of it, the v5 playtest seems to have Art as a skill.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 05:10

Emy: Apr 21, 2009

ZiegeDame posted:

I'd just like to take this moment to say What the gently caress Crafts skill

How is Cooking, Painting, Construction, and Welding all the same loving skill

Why is still a thing

Why, Crafts, why

why

That is all.

Obviously the book was written by Athenians.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 06:28

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

ZiegeDame posted:

I'd just like to take this moment to say What the gently caress Crafts skill

How is Cooking, Painting, Construction, and Welding all the same loving skill

Why is still a thing

Why, Crafts, why

why

That is all.

Son, you're traveling down a dark, dark road. If you don't turn back now, one day you'll find yourself standing before a man with horns and points in Disguise who is asking you for a Strength+Technology check.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 06:44

Daeren: Aug 18, 2009; YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

ZiegeDame posted:

I'd just like to take this moment to say What the gently caress Crafts skill

How is Cooking, Painting, Construction, and Welding all the same loving skill

Why is still a thing

Why, Crafts, why

why

That is all.

How exactly would you propose fixing this that doesn't involve horrifying levels of skill bloat, or risk of people taking a skill that might as well read "Underwater Basket Weaving"?

Like, for every ST who sees Cooking 5 on a sheet and will let the player go nuts with that to interact with the game, there's gonna be a whole lot of people who pick dots in Cooking or whatever and just spend the entire game regretting it.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 06:49

Rubix Squid: Apr 17, 2014

The best solution of the Crafts problem is to restrict to general handicraft and the like unless the character has specialty, professional training, or any other similarly strong reason to do things like making robots and cooking meth.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 07:23

Basic Chunnel: Sep 21, 2010; Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

In practice, the simplest solution is for the ST to gauge the character's probable familiarity with the task and assign penalties as they would for any other skill check. It also helps to remember that the different attribute groups can be used in novel ways. Cooking meth could be a craft roll, sure. But it's not uncommon for people to take a few dots in science that they never use, so why not make that roll a Science + Dex (probably extended)? Few expect science to be used outside of Int or Wits rolls, but why shouldn't they?

Personally I always just thought of crafts as "putting things together and taking them apart", and unless those things are core plot related (never ever ever ever ever gate progress with rolls, ever) I'll probably have an establishing knowledge roll prior to using crafts. Want to soup up your car's engine? Roll int+drive to see if you've got a good grasp of how to do that. If you pass, you go ahead with crafts.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 08:06

Mulva: Sep 13, 2011; It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Yeah the answer is really specialties and common sense, so that you skip out on the 351 bloated abilities spread around the oWoD. Which isn't the real number, but which nobody that actually *read* the oWoD can definitively tell me is actually wrong.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 08:55

Rubix Squid: Apr 17, 2014

I think that is low balling it.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 09:11

ZearothK: Aug 25, 2008; I've lost twice, I've failed twice and I've gotten two dishonorable mentions within 7 weeks. But I keep coming back. I am The Trooper!

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

Feh, OWOD has nothing on GURPS or Eclipse Phase, you know, proper games where you need an Excel sheet to distribute your points.

Honestly, even CoD has too many skill points for my liking.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 11:51

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Seriously? It's about as streamlined as you can get without diving into storygaming levels, unless that's what you meant.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 11:54

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

It would say the Merit system is where things bog down the most. There's just too many options and not enough points, and it's where maximization rears it's ugly head in earnest.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 12:57

Rubix Squid: Apr 17, 2014

If you use XP based chargen you don't have this problem in the slightest.

That does come with a trade off though as it's easy to slip up and miscount something along the way. Doubly so if you don't break it down by categories.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 13:08

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Rubix Squid posted:

If you use XP based chargen you don't have this problem in the slightest.

That does come with a trade off though as it's easy to slip up and miscount something along the way. Doubly so if you don't break it down by categories.

Nah, XP-based chargen still doesn't change that some merits are better than others, or that there can easily be choice paralysis.

E: in fact, CofD's flat XP costs make it so that, effectively, chargen is XP-based but locked into categories.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 13:13

Terrorforge: Dec 22, 2013; More of a furnace, really

Alien Rope Burn posted:

It would say the Merit system is where things bog down the most. There's just too many options and not enough points, and it's where maximization rears it's ugly head in earnest.

I was really happy about the fact that they bumped it up to 10 points in the CofD splats. I also really like the way Demon (and I guess Mage and to some degree Vampire but I haven't even read those thoroughly) gives you new axes to improve your character on. I never liked the way Supernatural Tolerance traits and Morality equivalents have exorbitant xp costs without really doing much; giving players the ability to earn them through play with stuff like arcane experiences and Pacts makes them a lot more engaging.

That said I still feel starved for Merits especially since I'm currently making a werewolf and thus lost most the extra dots from the version change to the Rite tax. I do fundamentally like the fact that WoD expects you to mechanically define your place in society but it's a little bit obnoxious that the Status, Resources and Professional Training you need just to represent being a person who exists in a modern society end up eating through the Merit budget you'd rather spend on fun, character-defining niche stuff like Eidetic Memory or Pack Dynamics.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 13:43

Rubix Squid: Apr 17, 2014

Mors Rattus posted:

Nah, XP-based chargen still doesn't change that some merits are better than others, or that there can easily be choice paralysis.

E: in fact, CofD's flat XP costs make it so that, effectively, chargen is XP-based but locked into categories.

While it is true that some choices are objectively better than others XP based chargen makes it much more forgiving since you can easily pick up a number of merits.

Also I should have mentioned that when I brought XP chargen I meant the old cost break down. The reason i bought up the no categories thing is that's exactly what I'm doing in my mage game and i've needed to triple check people's sheets to make sure they didn't miscount somewhere since it's 715 XP all together.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 13:44

I Am Just a Box: Jul 20, 2011; I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.

Terrorforge posted:

That said I still feel starved for Merits especially since I'm currently making a werewolf and thus lost most the extra dots from the version change to the Rite tax. I do fundamentally like the fact that WoD expects you to mechanically define your place in society but it's a little bit obnoxious that the Status, Resources and Professional Training you need just to represent being a person who exists in a modern society end up eating through the Merit budget you'd rather spend on fun, character-defining niche stuff like Eidetic Memory or Pack Dynamics.

On the smaller point: you get two Rite dots, enough for the Sacred Hunt, free, though? On top of your starting 10 Merits.

I don't disagree with the larger point. PT and Status you can kind of handwave and say dots really relate to how much you're actively networking or how major a part of your story they are rather than just having base access to a profession or affiliation, but my games are a lot better off just jettissoning Resources as a Merit.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 15:14

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 15:19

Terrorforge: Dec 22, 2013; More of a furnace, really

I Am Just a Box posted:

On the smaller point: you get two Rite dots, enough for the Sacred Hunt, free, though? On top of your starting 10 Merits.

Well yes. I guess it's not so much a "tax" as yet another tempting option, but I sure couldn't prevent myself from skimming two points off the top for the ability to shove the sentient manifestation of urban blight into a half-empty bottle of Jack Daniel's.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 16:08

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > World of Darkness Megathread: Curse of the Were-Poster

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