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Cyrano4747 posted:The issue with nerds is that they think consumption of media and being a big enough fan gives them some degree of ownership. You see this all the time with pretty much any property that has a following. You can't throw a rock on the internet without hitting some butt-hurt hyper Star Wars or Star Trek nerd absolutely incensed about how this that or the other thing is ruining his space opera. Alright, I see what you're saying. I was more focused on the "they literally cannot understand how you could disagree with them" portion. To be honest that issue with people thinking they have some ownership in the franchise, or that their word is how it should be, just because they've been invested in it for a long time is really just an offshoot of that overall human intolerance. edit: To talk about the game, that thread regarding complaints about the pilot skills seemed to be mostly focused on Evasive Move, and not necessarily that only named lore characters should have them, but rather that it was just a way too powerful skill in how much damage it mitigated. I'm going to note that complaints about Evasive Move have come up here as well, repeatedly, just couched in different terms. Or at least to begin with, I only skimmed the first few posts. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 15:20
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Everyone whining about evasive move is ignoring the many ways that it can be mitigated though. A lot of them are extrapolating from the beta for MP or campaign balance, which is inherently speculative. Personally, I think Evasive move should be toned down for Assaults at least. We'll see what HBS does.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:25
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I still think a lot of the problems people have with Evasive is how easy it is to overlook a target having evasive until after you shoot. Once they update the UI so it is more obvious to you during the shooting phase, it won't feel so bullshit. It'll still BE pretty bullshit, but hey, bring a sensor lock man and stop caring about that bullshit.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:34
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Rygar201 posted:Everyone whining about evasive move is ignoring the many ways that it can be mitigated though. Nah, the ways to mitigate it all have serious drawbacks. It's entirely accurate to say that Evasive Move is the best Pilot Skill in the game, and it's really not even arguable. It gives you a huge defensive buff for essentially no downside. And to counter it, your opponent has to do basically 1 of 3 things. Take Sensor Lock, which requires you to forgo weapons fire from one of your Mechs entirely just to use it. Melee, which is likely going to force you to expose one of your Mechs to his entire lance and possibly without the benefit of cover, either the in-game state or the use of terrain to block LoS. All just for the chance to knock him out of Evasive. You can always shoot him out of it, but that is basically going to require a shitload of missile fire to pull off reliably, so to take advantage of that you'll have to reserve down most of your Mechs so you can drop as much weight of fire on him as possible before he moves again and regains Evasive. That's not to say it needs to be banished from the game, but the complaints are understandable because it's really, really loving good.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:38
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Q_res posted:Nah, the ways to mitigate it all have serious drawbacks. It's entirely accurate to say that Evasive Move is the best Pilot Skill in the game, and it's really not even arguable. It gives you a huge defensive buff for essentially no downside. And to counter it, your opponent has to do basically 1 of 3 things. Take Sensor Lock, which requires you to forgo weapons fire from one of your Mechs entirely just to use it. Melee, which is likely going to force you to expose one of your Mechs to his entire lance and possibly without the benefit of cover, either the in-game state or the use of terrain to block LoS. All just for the chance to knock him out of Evasive. You can always shoot him out of it, but that is basically going to require a shitload of missile fire to pull off reliably, so to take advantage of that you'll have to reserve down most of your Mechs so you can drop as much weight of fire on him as possible before he moves again and regains Evasive. It's much better than Bulwark for zero opportunity cost. Bulwark makes you easier to hit and partially mitigates damage. Evasive Move makes you harder to hit, and totally negates some damage. It's overtuned. I'd be mostly fine with it if there were diminishing returns by weight class
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Jun 14, 2017 15:42
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I personally don't like the diminishing returns by weight class thing, but that's because I'm against welfare handouts for lights and 50% of your shots just not hitting regardless of how well you've set yourself up to shoot it is irritating. But again, I'll just keep the mandatory sensor lock guy and ignore the mechanic. Get hosed, light mech.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:54
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Rygar201 posted:I'd be mostly fine with it if there were diminishing returns by weight class Pretty much this. It makes sense on a light mech and is annoying but not nuts. At the end of the day you can just alpha the gently caress out of a light with evasive and count on the half that do hit to do enough damage that you'll kill it. Where it gets to be total bullshit is when it's an assault with evasive. edit: this would be really easy to solve by having some skills only apply to some mech weights. Evasive only on lights and mediums, bullwark only on heavies and assaults.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:54
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Cyrano4747 posted:Pretty much this. It makes sense on a light mech and is annoying but not nuts. At the end of the day you can just alpha the gently caress out of a light with evasive and count on the half that do hit to do enough damage that you'll kill it. Where it gets to be total bullshit is when it's an assault with evasive. This is the better idea, yeah. I wonder if they will add any other pilot skills to launch. Are there any locked skills in the files?
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Jun 14, 2017 15:58
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Zaodai posted:I personally don't like the diminishing returns by weight class thing, but that's because I'm against welfare handouts for lights and 50% of your shots just not hitting regardless of how well you've set yourself up to shoot it is irritating. But again, I'll just keep the mandatory sensor lock guy and ignore the mechanic. Get hosed, light mech. It's an extremely intuitive change. It would make sense on a gut level that it's easier to move a smaller, more nimble light mech evasively than it is to waddle a gigantic fat rear end assault mech evasively.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:58
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Kanos posted:It's an extremely intuitive change. It would make sense on a gut level that it's easier to move a smaller, more nimble light mech evasively than it is to waddle a gigantic fat rear end assault mech evasively. *Atlas pilot upon learning Evasive Move* I know Kung-Fu!
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Jun 14, 2017 16:00
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Kanos posted:It's an extremely intuitive change. It would make sense on a gut level that it's easier to move a smaller, more nimble light mech evasively than it is to waddle a gigantic fat rear end assault mech evasively. Oh, I'm not arguing that it doesn't make sense from a logic perspective. Merely that something making logical sense isn't required for Battletech game balance.  Evasive should neutralize your other defensive bonuses. So you get your 50% dodge modifier, but the shots that get through aren't subject to cover or move mods or whatever. All of that is rolled in to you "evading".
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Jun 14, 2017 16:03
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Zaodai posted:Oh, I'm not arguing that it doesn't make sense from a logic perspective. Merely that something making logical sense isn't required for Battletech game balance. That's just straight up worse than the def mods though?
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Jun 14, 2017 16:05
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Zaodai posted:I personally don't like the diminishing returns by weight class thing, but that's because I'm against welfare handouts for lights and 50% of your shots just not hitting regardless of how well you've set yourself up to shoot it is irritating. But again, I'll just keep the mandatory sensor lock guy and ignore the mechanic. Get hosed, light mech. gently caress you got mass
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Jun 14, 2017 16:05
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Rygar201 posted:That's just straight up worse than the def mods though? Is it? Is 50% of the shots that come at you not hitting worse than a 10% modifier or whatever from moving? I doubt it. I mean if your logic is that lights are ducking and weaving faster, then they must be ducking and weaving through any nearby cover, so why get credit for the cover twice? If we're fine with Evasive being bullshit, it might as well be your only bullshit.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:07
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Hairbraned made shadowrun games right I thought those were fun but mechanically after a while felt lacking What's so different about this game mechanically over xcom or shadowrun
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Jun 14, 2017 16:08
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Zaodai posted:Is it? Is 50% of the shots that come at you not hitting worse than a 10% modifier or whatever from moving? I doubt it. I mean if your logic is that lights are ducking and weaving faster, then they must be ducking and weaving through any nearby cover, so why get credit for the cover twice? If we're fine with Evasive being bullshit, it might as well be your only bullshit. If you're abstracting it to the idea that lights are ducking and weaving through cover it's quite possible to imagine the enemy trying to lead shots against a moving target that are smacking into trees and rocks and poo poo that are in the way.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:08
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Zaodai posted:Is it? Is 50% of the shots that come at you not hitting worse than a 10% modifier or whatever from moving? I doubt it. I mean if your logic is that lights are ducking and weaving faster, then they must be ducking and weaving through any nearby cover, so why get credit for the cover twice? If we're fine with Evasive being bullshit, it might as well be your only bullshit. I think this change would weaken the base Evasive buff too much. If you sprint and give up firing, I think def mods and dodge chance is warranted.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:10
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Kanos posted:If you're abstracting it to the idea that lights are ducking and weaving through cover it's quite possible to imagine the enemy trying to lead shots against a moving target that are smacking into trees and rocks and poo poo that are in the way. Sure, but my point is that would be part of the 50% of the shots that don't hit. If you're evading and a shot hits a rock you ran behind, your evasive maneuver was to put the rock between you and your target.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:10
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Zaodai posted:Sure, but my point is that would be part of the 50% of the shots that don't hit. If you're evading and a shot hits a rock you ran behind, your evasive maneuver was to put the rock between you and your target. As opposed to the guy who isn't actively attempting to evade, where a huge amount of shots whiff because of the trees and rocks in the way.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:13
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Rygar201 posted:It's much better than Bulwark for zero opportunity cost. Bulwark makes you easier to hit and partially mitigates damage. Evasive Move makes you harder to hit, and totally negates some damage. It's overtuned. I'd be mostly fine with it if there were diminishing returns by weight class It's easy to think of it in terms of action economy. You have 2 actions a turn - a move, and a shoot/move/brace action. All the other pilot abilities still limit you to two actions. Bulwark lets you trade your pure move action for a brace (without the stability benefits), Sensor Lock lets you trade your shoot action for a lock. Evasive Move straight up gives you a free action. You still get your move and you still get your Shoot/Move/Brace. It's 50% more stuff per turn.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:13
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Kanos posted:As opposed to the guy who isn't actively attempting to evade, where a huge amount of shots whiff because of the trees and rocks in the way. Sure? I think evasive, ESPECIALLY eevasive move is retarded in general. So I'm biased.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:15
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ZenVulgarity posted:What's so different about this game mechanically over xcom or shadowrun actually I think upon close inspection you'll find that this game is actually xcom and there is no difference im excited for my psi commando
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Jun 14, 2017 16:15
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Zaodai posted:Sure? I think evasive, ESPECIALLY eevasive move is retarded in general. So I'm biased. Mechs moving fast to not get hit is pretty fundamental to how battlemech combat works. Evasive as a tradeoff buff for giving up the ability to shoot that turn is perfectly fine. Evasive move is a great idea to allow smaller mechs to play aggressively instead of sitting and being sensor bots and plays into how they functioned in tabletop and previous mechwarrior games. It's not a great idea to give an Atlas, which already benefits from enormous amounts of durability, a 50% bullet shield for free.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:25
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We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll bring my Affirmative Action Light 'Mech in the campaign, stick a guy with Sensor Lock in it, and exterminate opposing lights with extreme prejudice. Move + Shoot + cover + move mod + 50% of the shots that get through that miss anyway seems stupidly broken on any mech, not just assaults. As long as HBS gives me some kind of action to counter it, I'll deal with it. Right now, Sensor Lock is that mechanic, so I'll just make sure I always have it. It's fine.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:33
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I guess I don't get why you think tweaking game balance to make it so all classes of mech are potentially useful in a variety of situations(instead of light mechs being sensor lock bots and nothing more) is some kind of unnatural "affirmative action". It's game balancing. Is making it so the AC/2 and AC/5 aren't total garbage compared to lasers considered ballistics affirmative action?
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Jun 14, 2017 16:39
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Kanos posted:I guess I don't get why you think tweaking game balance to make it so all classes of mech are potentially useful in a variety of situations(instead of light mechs being sensor lock bots and nothing more) is some kind of unnatural "affirmative action". It's game balancing.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:48
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Kanos posted:I guess I don't get why you think tweaking game balance to make it so all classes of mech are potentially useful in a variety of situations(instead of light mechs being sensor lock bots and nothing more) is some kind of unnatural "affirmative action". It's game balancing. It's not just the scaling evasive buff being suggested, but the stated goal that in the campaign Assaults and Heavies should be prohibitively expensive and that you shouldn't be able to run a lance of them without bankrupting yourself. The Initiative model also benefits bringing a spread of each type, so you'll want your AA Light Mech to fill the slot. Weapons should be inherently balanced against each other. A Light Mech should not inherently be equal to an Assault in combat, when it weighs a 1/3-1/4 as much. From a game balance perspective, I believe that a light mech should die when you shoot it. Evasive lets them situationally tank substantially more fire than they normally would be able to. It's not a deal breaker. I'll play the game either way and have fun. I just don't like all the special case stuff for Lights. It's a preference thing.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:54
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Just make evasive skill be a miss chance based on distance moved, Starting at 10%, and topping out at 50%.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:59
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ZenVulgarity posted:Hairbraned made shadowrun games right It's really hard to say anything concrete since all we have is a skirmish mode against a still-in-development AI, but generally: - There is no waist-high cover, so positioning (maximizing how many of your units can see or attack one of theirs while minimizing how many of your own `Mechs can be seen) is extremely important, just like in Tabletop BattleTech. - Teamwork is vital. Just like in tabletop BattleTech, a BattleMech that's operating by itself is probably dead. - Deciding when to attack and when to brace to soak hits is important. If you've misjudged your positioning guarding instead of attacking can absolutely save a `Mech. Provided you don't get punched. - There is no reaction fire, so fast units that can afford to delay can in and out of combat without taking damage. This is important because these same fast units are very squishy. - Melee is the best counter to most defensive abilities, and is both fun and useful. - Your longest ranged weapons are often your lowest damage weapons, and typically long range weapons have a downside in the form of a minimum range that greatly reduces accuracy if the enemy is too close. Just like tabletop BattleTech. - - We don't know what the campaign game is going to be like, how many and what sorts of maps we'll have, or what sort of objectives we'll need to accomplish. Multiplayer will probably play a lot like skirmish, possibly against a smarter opponent. I have a sneaking suspicion assault `Mechs will be less good against real players who know how to maneuver and can exploit how sluggish Assaults are.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:12
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PoptartsNinja posted:- We don't know what the campaign game is going to be like, how many and what sorts of maps we'll have, or what sort of objectives we'll need to accomplish. There's a "Contracts" folder in the Beta install that has a number of files in it that can give you some idea of a few of the mission types we'll be undertaking, it's a good read and one of them actually kind of surprised me. Also, I agree with you on Assault Mechs. They've stated that they actually moved the spawn points closer together for Beta, so come release it's possible that bringing an Assault Mech could be a hindrance in PVP if you're not careful.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:22
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PoptartsNinja posted:- We don't know what the campaign game is going to be like, how many and what sorts of maps we'll have, or what sort of objectives we'll need to accomplish. Multiplayer will probably play a lot like skirmish, possibly against a smarter opponent. I have a sneaking suspicion assault `Mechs will be less good against real players who know how to maneuver and can exploit how sluggish Assaults are. The fog of war, interdirect fire, and spotting system reminds me a lot of Cyberstorm. Multiplayer in that game was often a lot of fast missile boats where one guy spots you and missiles from all over the drat place then rain down on your head. Walking around in the heavier HERCs was just suicide.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:31
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Q_res posted:They've stated that they actually moved the spawn points closer together for Beta, so come release it's possible that bringing an Assault Mech could be a hindrance in PVP if you're not careful. This is good to know. Making contact on turn 2 every time means initial positioning basically doesn't matter. This is something I mentioned in a survey, glad to hear that it's an intentional beta change. And it makes a lot of sense right now, considering how the AI operates.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:55
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Evasive rebalance chat: instead of a passive skill, make it something that's activated for your initial movement. It functions exactly like the Move action but provides a penalty to your shooting, should you choose to shoot after activating it. So it's still very useful but now has a drawback like the other pilot skills.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:55
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Great Beer posted:Evasive rebalance chat: instead of a passive skill, make it something that's activated for your initial movement. It functions exactly like the Move action but provides a penalty to your shooting, should you choose to shoot after activating it. So it's still very useful but now has a drawback like the other pilot skills. I actually really like this for the Evasive Move pilot skill. It's the other side of the "you're spending all your time juking around to be hard to hit" coin. It'd still be amazing (because it's still letting you shoot on a defensive benefit that normally wouldn't let you shoot at all) but at least there'd be some trade off instead of it being 100% upside.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:59
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Same, +1 greatbeer
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Jun 14, 2017 18:06
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Make the open-ended single player campaign have a famous character of the day be your opponent but pull a  on it and have another player be hauled in to command the lance Old Monk/Church Spears style! 
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Jun 14, 2017 20:29
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Great Beer posted:Evasive rebalance chat: instead of a passive skill, make it something that's activated for your initial movement. It functions exactly like the Move action but provides a penalty to your shooting, should you choose to shoot after activating it. So it's still very useful but now has a drawback like the other pilot skills. Just let the Evasive skill allow a dude to shoot after sprinting maybe? Might force a SRM boat to go out further than he'd like to gain evasive, or expose himself. I really like the penalty to shooting idea though.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:33
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School Nickname posted:Just let the Evasive skill allow a dude to shoot after sprinting maybe? Might force a SRM boat to go out further than he'd like to gain evasive, or expose himself. I really like the penalty to shooting idea though. I like this a lot. maybe there's an additional skill that lets you use your melee attack at the end of a sprint with bonus damage (so long as it's in a straight line)?
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Jun 14, 2017 20:37
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only if the Charger gets it natively! 
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Jun 14, 2017 20:41
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Pattonesque posted:I like this a lot. maybe there's an additional skill that lets you use your melee attack at the end of a sprint with bonus damage (so long as it's in a straight line)? The problem with making Evasive being tied to sprinting is that it will increase your base defense. I think Greatbeer's idea is the best, as of now. I think 25 to 40% reduction of accuracy would be an adequate payoff for 50% Dodge. So with more advanced Pilots you'd stick Evasive on your Scout who also has Sensor Lock.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:43
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