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Harik posted:Question about the samsung 850 - does it have a severe problem reading trimmed (zero) sectors? Its your 850 a Pro or EVO? The 850 EVOs had a problem with earlier firmwares where older files would read slower. The 840s have the same problem to a lesser degree. This was fixed in newer firmware updates. Also what tool are you using for cloning that would bother with empty space? Use something like Macrium Reflect... It only copies occupied sectors, making clones much faster.
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Jun 13, 2017 13:45
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No that is the 840 EVO that has problems reading the older files.
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Jun 13, 2017 13:53
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Harik posted:Question about the samsung 850 - does it have a severe problem reading trimmed (zero) sectors? Is the destination an 850 EVO? It's a somewhat expected behavior if so. EVOs reduce cost by operating most of their flash memory in TLC (three bits per cell) mode. TLC is inherently slower to write to than the MLC mode (2b/cell) used in Pro series drives. To make up for that, Samsung operates a few gigabytes of every EVO's flash memory in SLC mode (1b/cell, even faster write speed than MLC). The drive stages incoming writes in SLC and slowly spools them out to permanent TLC storage in the background. For daily desktop use you will never hit the edge case of this design, which is filling up the fast SLC write buffer and then observing a huge slowdown. While the buffer isn't full, the drive is effectively just as fast as a Pro. But when you clone an entire drive... It's harder to observe this effect in larger EVO drives, because they have more flash chips and therefore have enough internal TLC write parallelism to keep up. For $JOB reasons I have tested the 2TB 850 EVO and can report that it will write at SATA interface speed limits (roughly 500MB/s) indefinitely. However I would not be surprised if the 250 and even 500GB sizes have noticeable slowdown after filling the SLC cache area.
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Jun 14, 2017 01:38
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That is a really cool explanation.
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Jun 14, 2017 02:06
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Crossposting from the upgrade thread, which I hope is ok: So I'm outgrowing my 256gb 850 Pro SSD in my GA-Z77x-UD3H system and found a nice deal on a 500gb 960 EVO M.2 drive which I pulled the trigger on. I ordered a PCI-e adapter for it as well and my understanding is I will also have to mod my BIOS to be able to boot from it, which is my intent. Has anyone something similar and got an M.2 NVMe drive running on an older board like this? I'm beginning to worry it might be a little outside my technical capabilites. Also, is it OK to clone my existing SATA SSD to the new M.2 or should I do a fresh install? I'm still running Windows 7 and would prefer not to upgrade to 10 at this time.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:19
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I was able to update a ASROCK z77 mobo to boot nvme but they had a beta BIOS for that. Modifying the BIOS yourself? Good luck!
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Jun 15, 2017 15:57
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Got a used 500GB Sandisk Ultra II for $90. 380/500mb speed, used drives are crazy deals.
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Jun 15, 2017 16:35
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Bob Morales posted:Got a used 500GB Sandisk Ultra II for $90. 380/500mb speed, used drives are crazy deals. What's the best place to get those? That's a crazy good deal.
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Jun 15, 2017 16:40
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Seconded
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Jun 15, 2017 16:42
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Ynglaur posted:What's the best place to get those? That's a crazy good deal. Random rear end forums that have for sale sections.
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Jun 15, 2017 16:46
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willroc7 posted:a little outside my technical capabilites. If you get it working, please post a guide and bios files. It'll make a lot of z77 owners happy.
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Jun 15, 2017 21:39
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stevewm posted:Its your 850 a Pro or EVO? The 850 EVOs had a problem with earlier firmwares where older files would read slower. The 840s have the same problem to a lesser degree. This was fixed in newer firmware updates. dd. I figured it would be fast enough from SSD to SSD that it wasn't worth downing the whole machine to run a standalone cloning program. I probably should have just to save the worthless writes, but oh well. BobHoward posted:Is the destination an 850 EVO? It's a somewhat expected behavior if so. I knew about that feature of the EVO, but I didn't think the sustained write dipped down to 25 MB/sec. Source was a 250GB 850 EVO, destination was a 500mb 840 EVO. Someone benchmarked it and graphed the initial write speed and the drop to the sustained speed, but I don't remember where. Thinking about it, it could be that I didn't trim the partition I was cloning onto, so it was thrashing eraseblocks of old data instead of having ~400gb free to just use. That would hit the other 840 bug as well, because it had to re-read that old partial EB to move data off it and since it was old and stale it would take longer. Sorry for the late reply on this one, it was a crazy week.
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Jun 16, 2017 04:16
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I just installed my new Samsung EVO 850 recently but completely forgot the driver/software protips that pop up in this thread on occasion. Should I install Samsung's software suite and is RAPID still desirable? Doing a quick google search it looks to me like the opinion has swung against enabling RAPID.
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Jun 16, 2017 10:31
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Foulbrood posted:I just installed my new Samsung EVO 850 recently but completely forgot the driver/software protips that pop up in this thread on occasion. RAPID is snake oil, and honestly the only reason to load Magician is when there's a firmware update to load.
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Jun 16, 2017 12:11
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Harik posted:dd. Macrium can clone a live system thanks to shadow copy support. Easy enough to use. Plug in new SSD, clone old SSD to new SSD, unplug old SSD and boot from new SSD.
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Jun 16, 2017 13:58
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Rest in peace 120gb corsair gt ssd  you lived a good life.Going to save my pennies for a 250gb m.2 samsung evo I think. Use the opportunity to have a few less cables and such. I'd be lying if I said it didn't warn me. Over the past 6 months or so it'd failed to be detected in post about 5 times, but was always there by the time I got into the bios.
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Jun 16, 2017 15:13
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Is there a reason the 850 Evos haven't dropped in price since the 2 years I bought my 250gb one?
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Jun 17, 2017 04:03
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E2M2 posted:Is there a reason the 850 Evos haven't dropped in price since the 2 years I bought my 250gb one? I've seen it attributed to flash production shortages but the prices are so high that it seems like they may just be wallowing around in their high profit margins while the Samsungs maintain their status as the best consumer drives. I paid $150 for the 500gb 850 EVO in 2015 and it costs more now.
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Jun 17, 2017 04:52
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Besides the shortage, apparently more and more companies are converting over to slower TLC. So maybe used MLC drives are starting to command a premium.
WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jun 17, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 04:57
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E2M2 posted:Is there a reason the 850 Evos haven't dropped in price since the 2 years I bought my 250gb one? The fact that I was able to score my 1TB 850 EVO for $225 last Black Friday (before the NAND shortage, of course) more or less confirms that there's just a "Samsung Tax" and they're simply making insane margins being able to charge more than their competitors on 1TB and above. Hopefully the 2TB Crucial lowers the prices on Samsung's high end.
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Jun 17, 2017 07:42
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"Hey the mixed-use drive you're punching out has a lead time of six weeks, but I can get you a planar slc drive for twice the price in two days." -Every hardware rep right now We were supposed to have overcome the nand shortage by now.
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Jun 17, 2017 07:48
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Sorry if it's a well trodden topic but is it worth paying more for a Samsung 960 over a 850 for gaming and light scientific computing?
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Jun 17, 2017 08:13
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NVMe is worth it. Make sure your motherboard has an NVMe capable m.2 slot. The 960 pro has opened up an entire new universe of capabilities to me at home on the computational physics front.
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Jun 17, 2017 08:19
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That's awesome. Just curious but what difference did it make?
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Jun 17, 2017 08:28
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Its formated xfs and basically gives me 250gb of guilt free totally-not-ram-but-feels-like-ram I run FAMOUS2 at home
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Jun 17, 2017 08:33
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The only supplier I could find with intel p3700 drives was asking more than 2x what we paid for them from another supplier less than 6 months before. So we got a poo poo ton of the optane m.2s instead. The aic dc4800x still doesn't seem to be available yet either. It bugs me how stuff gets announced and you can't buy it for months after. Unless your name rhymes with "oogle", probably.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:32
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I haven't had trouble getting P3600s  I can't remember here in this traffic jam whether their nand is the same
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Jun 17, 2017 17:37
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Could someone link me the post that explained why RAPID was snake oil? I forgot the details.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:11
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Potato Salad posted:I haven't had trouble getting P3600s I am not sure about the nand (Intel doesn't seem to trumpet SLC/MLC etc) but the specs have the 3700 as much higher reliability and somewhat higher performance too. Plus we have a lot of 3700s already and want to keep apples to apples comparison (just make sure to update their firmware!)
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Jun 17, 2017 18:31
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SinineSiil posted:Could someone link me the post that explained why RAPID was snake oil? I forgot the details. Potato Salad posted:...blah blah... Also, here's anandtech's review of RAPID on the 850 Pro. http://www.anandtech.com/show/8216/samsung-ssd-850-pro-128gb-256gb-1tb-review-enter-the-3d-era/6
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Jun 17, 2017 18:57
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SinineSiil posted:Could someone link me the post that explained why RAPID was snake oil? I forgot the details. I can't link because IDK who wrote the post you're thinking of but am ready and willing to write a fresh new rant just for you. It adds a disk caching layer to an operating system which already has one, and the built in one is fine. Except from Samsung's perspective. Because if they just relied on the built-in, they couldn't differentiate their product by tuning the caching layer to post super high scores in popular artificial benchmarks. The real world benefits are dubious. Outside of the benchmarks you aren't going to see much difference, because at the end of the day cache is cache and they're not doing something magically better than the built-in. They're just capturing traces of a handful of programs and making sure those specific access patterns are super accelerated. (I mean I don't know they are doing this but RAPID almost has to be this. Like I said, there's a built-in cache and that one is fine for normal users.) There's more, though. There is a natural tension between consuming large amounts of memory for a highly aggressive disk cache and letting that memory be used for other purposes. A disk cache needs to be tightly integrated with an OS to get memory-usage tuning right. Because RAPID cannot be that well integrated, I'd expect there are many scenarios where it hurts performance, simply by increasing system-wide memory pressure enough that Windows starts swapping when it otherwise wouldn't. This kind of performance tuning is a hard enough problem that I've seen too-much-cache-leads-to-swapping in Linux even though there wasn't an alien third party caching layer in the picture. It's also something that's incredibly hard to capture in an artificial benchmark. The silly thing is that Samsung's SSDs are really good. They didn't need to write RAPID, they frequently top benchmarks even without it in the picture. Buy the SSD, plug it in, use it, never install Samsung software unless you need to install a firmware update. fake edit: looks like someone linked while I was writing my rant but imma gonna post it anyways
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Jun 17, 2017 19:32
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Thank you both
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Jun 17, 2017 19:43
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Aside from snake oil, it caused systems to throw out of memory errors.. when you still had enough memory.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:45
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GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:If you get it working, please post a guide and bios files. It'll make a lot of z77 owners happy. I basically followed this post: http://www.win-raid.com/t1737f36-Gigabyte-Z-X-UD-H-revision-adding-NVME-support-for-Samsung-Pro.html Modding/flashing the BIOS was super easy if you just follow the win-raid guide instructions. I spent A LOT of time trying to clone my windows 7 install over but was never able to, so I did a clean install of 10. It boots up perfectly now and does about 1200 MB/s sequential read/write. That seems to be an appropriate speed for nvme, right?
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Jun 22, 2017 19:17
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I know next to nothing about SSDs, right now my PC has a pretty old 1 TB hard drive holding everything. From my understanding I can get an SSD and put a lot of the important things on that (operating system, games), but store the rest of files (pictures, video, etc.) on the extra hard drive and have access to both while the SSD vastly speeds up loading for games / boot / etc. Is this right, and if so, is there a good SSD on the market right now people recommend? I noticed the OP hadn't been updated since 2016 and not sure if tech just hasn't improved or if there's new info. Thanks all!
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Jun 22, 2017 21:09
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  Those ADatas are ridiculously cheap, like ~$120 for 256GB. Need to see how they perform and how long they last!
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Jun 22, 2017 21:15
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I'll be in my bunk.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:07
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There was a guy who got NVMe working on his Z68 board, but honestly the biggest difference between the Z68 and Z77 is the native PCI Gen 3 support. Probably the most you'd ever get out of a hacked Z68 would be ~700-900MB/sec.
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Jun 23, 2017 04:12
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I got NVMe working on my P9X79 motherboard. But that meant that I had to manually update and patch the BIOS file, otherwise it wouldn't boot from it. I was hoping that since I use GRUB anyway as a bootloader, I would be able to just install GRUB on a normal hard-drive and then boot the OS from the NVMe drive. But ... grub wasn't able to see it so it was either make the MB boot from it, or just use the drive as an additional drive (not a deal breaker, but I like it better when the OS itself is on a 2000 MB/s drive). Now, true, once the kernel loads , one could mount almost everything that matters (/usr, /home) onto the fast drive but that is 
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Jun 23, 2017 15:18
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Hello thread, I just slapped together the overclockers dream from the PC parts thread; https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3774409 and generall have an i5K, 16 gigs ram, new Asus z270 mobo, ge1080, and 2 sdds. I have 2 Samsung ssds, one 120gigs that serves as my OS drive, and that is working fine. My other is an 850 EVO 500gig, and windows will not recognize it, even though Samsung Magician does. Suggestions?
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Jun 23, 2017 22:01
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