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wolrah posted:The 24 hours thing was a number pulled out of my rear end for my hypothetical indicator, the current auto-reboot is something like a week after the first notice AFAIK. It's not like Windows systems are all auto-rebooting Patch Tuesday night. wolrah posted:That I definitely agree with, if your render/compile/computation doesn't save its state at least every few minutes it's horribly designed and that's the actual problem. Unfortunately, almost all of this poo poo is terribly designed. Here's an example I've had direct experience with. When designing FPGAs it's not like you have a lot of choices - either use the software from the FPGA vendor or buy a $50,000/seat license for something that doesn't have full knowledge of the specific blocks in the part you're using. Neither option supports resuming a simulation of the design, so if something interrupts it you start over. It takes hours (sometimes days) to do a simulation of a complex operation. In our case, it was trying to simulate the transforms of a dozen frames of 1080p video coming in via HDMI. 50 million clock cycles through a complex part and it gets a thousand or so clocks per second done, so somewhere between 6-8 hours. Lots of industries have similar problems. Engineering software's major flaws come from the fact it was designed by engineers. You get lots of assumptions like "people will use this the way I do", "computers are an always-on resource" and "it's not like there will ever be more than one processor in a computer so we'll do everything on one thread." Fast-forward from 1996 and you're in the sorry state we're at now, because lol at a company with inertia and enough money to buy any upstarts actually changing their sorry-rear end software. poo poo sucks. Applications are awful, OSs are awful. Can we not stockholm the status quo and pretend it's flowers and butterflies?
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Jun 17, 2017 00:01
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Well your long-running computation should ideally be saving its state regularly just in case, but it's hardly The Problem™ here. The problem is the computer rebooting when it's busy just because you're not there to hit the WAIT NO button. The OS shouldn't be inherently unstable by design which is basically what's happening here
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Jun 17, 2017 00:28
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Is it possible to activate Win 10 Pro on my new PC with the same key if I can't access the old PC since it died? I never made a MS account. The old PC upgraded via Win 7 Pro to Win 10 Pro and it's not a OEM license. I searched for transferring Win 10 keys but they require me to access the old PC which I cannot since it's dead. Otherwise I guess I can live with the trial forever and blue is my favorite color...
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Jun 17, 2017 03:19
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I just built a brand new PC... new motherboard, CPU etc.. Transferred the HDDs but formatted them all so reinstalled Win 10 completely from scratch and I upgraded from Win 8 -> 10 so the same key. Worked fine, didn't even need to call into the activation line or anything of that sort.
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Jun 17, 2017 03:29
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Wirth1000 posted:I just built a brand new PC... new motherboard, CPU etc.. Transferred the HDDs but formatted them all so reinstalled Win 10 completely from scratch and I upgraded from Win 8 -> 10 so the same key. Worked fine, didn't even need to call into the activation line or anything of that sort. I tried installing Win7 but I kept getting errors during the installation screen so I just went with Win10 on my new PC. It just reminds me I have a invalid key now and I considered contacting CS to transfer my old licence but apparently you need a MS account to chat with them.
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Jun 17, 2017 03:34
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baka kaba posted:Well your long-running computation should ideally be saving its state regularly just in case, but it's hardly The Problem™ here. The problem is the computer rebooting when it's busy just because you're not there to hit the WAIT NO button. The OS shouldn't be inherently unstable by design which is basically what's happening here A RCE doesn't give a poo poo if you aren't on your computer for execution.
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Jun 17, 2017 04:49
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Alder posted:Is it possible to activate Win 10 Pro on my new PC with the same key if I can't access the old PC since it died? I never made a MS account. The old PC upgraded via Win 7 Pro to Win 10 Pro and it's not a OEM license. I searched for transferring Win 10 keys but they require me to access the old PC which I cannot since it's dead. If you have the old install on a drive or backup you can pull the key with the magicaljellybeans tool. Just point it at the system registry file in windows\system32\whatever
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Jun 17, 2017 04:51
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:A RCE doesn't give a poo poo if you aren't on your computer for execution. People are talking past each other to an extent here. Windows doesn't reboot right after patching so that RCE is going to be there for a while, with or without automatic restart. Making the system try harder to find a convenient reboot time does not have to negatively impact security. From what I understand, what it currently does is quietly nag about an update for a few days before one day rebooting with little or no direct warning. What I would like to see is a system that quietly nags for a couple days, then picks a restart date and announces it with a dialog box every 12 or 24 hours. If Windows would alert the user about exactly when it will restart, with at least half a week of lead time, I think you'd see a lot fewer surprised users and less lost data.
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Jun 17, 2017 06:26
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Harik posted:DING DING DING we have a winner. I'm not convinced writing massive matricies to disk every few minutes is the best idea if you want performant simulation. FEA doesn't just neatly save its state to disk easily.
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Jun 17, 2017 06:42
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Dylan16807 posted:From what I understand, what it currently does is quietly nag about an update for a few days before one day rebooting with little or no direct warning. What I would like to see is a system that quietly nags for a couple days, then picks a restart date and announces it with a dialog box every 12 or 24 hours. If Windows would alert the user about exactly when it will restart, with at least half a week of lead time, I think you'd see a lot fewer surprised users and less lost data. I'm not personally faced with this problem, but I got curious about what effect will Space and Enter have on the reboot nag dialog? What button is selected by default? Will the computer reboot if you are writing an email and press space on the wrong moment?
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Jun 17, 2017 13:34
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Saukkis posted:I'm not personally faced with this problem, but I got curious about what effect will Space and Enter have on the reboot nag dialog? What button is selected by default? Will the computer reboot if you are writing an email and press space on the wrong moment? These days nothing should be stealing window focus besides UAC so that shouldn't be a concern. I'd be more worried about trying to click something in that area right as a pop-up occurs.
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Jun 17, 2017 13:43
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Dylan16807 posted:People are talking past each other to an extent here. Windows doesn't reboot right after patching so that RCE is going to be there for a while, with or without automatic restart. Making the system try harder to find a convenient reboot time does not have to negatively impact security. I use the PC every day and put it to sleep when I'm not using it, unless it's doing something important. I basically never see update warnings, it either reboots overnight or - like with the Plex thing - just decided to do it during active hours. So I'm not getting any warnings or deferment options at all, never mind days of advance notice I mean it doesn't happen often, but it shouldn't happen at all - if the computer looks busy, just hold off on rebooting it maybe? If you're going to force updates (which is a good policy in general) then just be a bit smarter about it
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Jun 17, 2017 14:41
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For everyone asking why Windows needs to reboot after updates, as usual, Raymond Chen has the answer
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Jun 17, 2017 16:12
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beuges posted:For everyone asking why Windows needs to reboot after updates, as usual, Raymond Chen has the answer This also explains why *nixes don't usually need a full reboot. In *nix, if an update to a library isn't compatible with the old version, it gets a new name, since the version is in the name. On Windows, that only works for applications that know about side-by-side, and plenty of legacy applications don't. So *nixes can switch the link for the default version of the library over to the latest version immediately, but Windows has to wait for a reboot to prevent legacy applications from breaking. Also, *nixes use soft links, whereas Windows uses hard links, which makes it harder to tell which version is in use.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:25
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Saukkis posted:I'm not personally faced with this problem, but I got curious about what effect will Space and Enter have on the reboot nag dialog? What button is selected by default? Will the computer reboot if you are writing an email and press space on the wrong moment? Don't make the box interactable, just obviously coloured with a timer counting down from 12 or 24 hours.
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Jun 18, 2017 00:28
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Saukkis posted:I'm not personally faced with this problem, but I got curious about what effect will Space and Enter have on the reboot nag dialog? What button is selected by default? Will the computer reboot if you are writing an email and press space on the wrong moment? Right now it puts a note in the notification center. My proposal would be a dialog box stage, with a specific date, between the notification stage and sudden reboot stage. It only needs "OK", really, so no effect from space. But any invasive dialog should have a cooldown where buttons don't do anything.
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Jun 18, 2017 05:56
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baka kaba posted:
What happens when the computer "looks busy" for 3 weeks straight?
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Jun 18, 2017 15:04
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Thread title should be Windows 10: Trying to change people's minds about automatic updates, and right after this I'm going to convince my dad that Donald Trump is bad.
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Jun 18, 2017 15:11
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fishmech posted:What happens when the computer "looks busy" for 3 weeks straight? You have to draw the line at some point, I'm saying it shouldn't be interrupting basic use cases like streaming a TV show or running a large download, unless it's a dire emergency. It's not my job to work out the ideal policy, they just need to make it less user-hostile. If you're trying to do something not even slightly unusual and your computer interrupts it (or becomes outright unusable because of a long update) then that's a Bad Thing, and they should be avoiding that
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Jun 18, 2017 15:50
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I switched to manual updates (with group policy) due to the restarts and the unreliability of the fixes that block restarts only. It actually does it in a pretty good way! First you get notifications in the action center, but if you ignore those for more than 5 days or so* you get a full-screen dialog box. That has only one button to dismiss it, "Get Updates", which opens the updates window. Continue to not update and it does that more and more frequently. *which I did when there was an update that gave tons of people complete shits, which MS later pulled. I feel vindicated. Medullah posted:Thread title should be Windows 10: Trying to change people's minds about automatic updates, and right after this I'm going to convince my dad that Donald Trump is bad. "Trying to use strawmen to defend a complete lack of effort by a company that had no problem putting months of thought into doing data collection & ads."
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Jun 18, 2017 15:50
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Those of you who are having trouble with Windows Update forcing reboots at bad times, can you check the event logs? I've set up a filtered view you can import and see just the events that should be relevant in a single view: Event Viewer custom view Save the file somewhere, open Event Viewer (right click on Start and find it there), then import it as a custom view:  The view has events from 3 different sources: User32, Servicing, and WindowsUpdateClient. The WindowsUpdateClient events are all kinds of downloading and installing of things WU handles, this includes Store apps updating. (I can't find a way to filter Store apps out.) You get separate events for download started (id=44), installation started (id=43), and installation finished (id=19). I've also seen a singe installation failed (id=20) for a Store app. The Servicing events are actual Windows updates installing. There are four kinds of events mainly, initiating changes (id=1), changes successful (id=2), changes failed (id=3), and reboot required to complete changes (id=4). The User32 events (filtered to only id=1074) are requested reboots, typically with reason. They will have a message like this: "The process C:\WINDOWS\system32\MusNotificationUX.exe (MACHINE) has initiated the restart of computer MACHINE on behalf of user MACHINE\UserName for the following reason: Operating System: Service pack (Planned)" The sequence of downloading and installing a regular monthly update pack looks like this:  Maybe this can help diagnose what leads up to those unexpected restarts.
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Jun 18, 2017 17:09
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I can check if it happens again, no idea when the last stupid restart was. Usually they happen overnight while it's asleep which is obviously cool and good
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Jun 18, 2017 17:23
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Double Punctuation posted:This also explains why *nixes don't usually need a full reboot. In *nix, if an update to a library isn't compatible with the old version, it gets a new name, since the version is in the name. On Windows, that only works for applications that know about side-by-side, and plenty of legacy applications don't. So *nixes can switch the link for the default version of the library over to the latest version immediately, but Windows has to wait for a reboot to prevent legacy applications from breaking. Also, *nixes use soft links, whereas Windows uses hard links, which makes it harder to tell which version is in use. No, it means exactly none of that. You don't need links to the .so, that's just a convenience for software that really needs to call a specific version by name. The linux update process works fine without it, and you could do the same on the NT kernel with what they already have. You're also confusing different compatibility: aside from some High Availibility gimmicks, no library is binary compatible in place, you have to restart the program to use it. Relocations, internal tables, etc are all in different places. Most avoid changing externally visible bits without a soname bump, though, so you can share an old & new between two different programs and they shouldn't conflict. When you do make a big enough change to change the soname, though, you can't just replace & restart. It's similar to DX9 vs DX10 - both get updates, but you can't just replace the D3D9.dll with a copy of D3D10 and expect the game to work. Same deal on linux - the old & new versions live together, each with their own filename (libfoo.so.5 and libfoo.so.6) and once all the old programs that use 5 are upgraded you can uninstall version5 entirely. I had a huge writeup about this but it was too many  . It comes down to: Because linux is installed via a distribution and 99% of your software comes from the distro, the update process knows what needs to be restarted when a library updates. Microsoft COULD track DLL usage and tell you to what to restart, but they don't support old/new coexistence of DLLs until everything is restarted because it might take programmer time away from telemetry, ad delivery and the all-important Office 365 team.E: I'm putting off Creator's for a few days until I have time to be able to do a full restore if it fucks up. Is there a way to only defer that and get the defender updates in the mean time? E2: clarified what was wrong. Harik fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 08:09
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I have Windows 10 Creators update (updated WSL is the bomb), and I am thinking about enabling BitLocker, because I need at least some parts of my FS encrypted for work reasons. What are the chances that I will be left with unusable laptop for a while? (I don't have another PC to create installation media from here, and I will be here for another month or so.)
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Jun 19, 2017 09:45
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Harik posted:E: I'm putting off Creator's for a few days until I have time to be able to do a full restore if it fucks up. Is there a way to only defer that and get the defender updates in the mean time? Defer upgrades (settings -> windows update -> advanced) blocks feature upgrades ie creators, but will still get all security updates including defender. nielsm posted:Those of you who are having trouble with Windows Update forcing reboots at bad times, can you check the event logs? They're not unexpected restarts, at least not from the perspective of the OS. Only from the perspective of the person using it.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:32
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Xarn posted:I have Windows 10 Creators update (updated WSL is the bomb), and I am thinking about enabling BitLocker, because I need at least some parts of my FS encrypted for work reasons. Bitlocker's encryption process runs in the background so you'll have virtually no downtime. I like to run the Bitlocker system check which requires a reboot but that's just me being paranoid. e: Backup your recovery key to multiple locations or you'll feel sorry at some point in your life.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:59
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Jeoh posted:Bitlocker's encryption process runs in the background so you'll have virtually no downtime. I like to run the Bitlocker system check which requires a reboot but that's just me being paranoid. I save mine in Dropbox as "Grandma's Traditional Meatloaf Recipe.txt"
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Jun 19, 2017 16:02
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Xarn posted:I have Windows 10 Creators update (updated WSL is the bomb), and I am thinking about enabling BitLocker, because I need at least some parts of my FS encrypted for work reasons. It will prompt you to backup the recovery key and encryption key to one or more locations: file, print, or one drive. I've gone through the recovery workflow many times, its consistent and plenty of tools support bit locker volume mounting. It's safe.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:10
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Xarn posted:I have Windows 10 Creators update (updated WSL is the bomb), and I am thinking about enabling BitLocker, because I need at least some parts of my FS encrypted for work reasons.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:37
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I was worried more about finding out that some improperly tested update means that bitlocker encrypts the volume with different key or something like that  , even a day's downtime is OK.
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Jun 20, 2017 06:15
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Klyith posted:They're not unexpected restarts, at least not from the perspective of the OS. Only from the perspective of the person using it. Yes that's exactly my point. Letting you interrogate the OS about what it thinks happened, so you can compare with your own experience as the user. Edit: To separate the events fully, here's from my recording of an update being downloaded and prepared, then later proper installation started during a "update and shut down", and finally update being finished during boot up later. Downloading (automatic): WindowsUpdateClient id=44 "started downloading an update", Servicing id=1 "change state from Absent to Staged". Download finished (4 minutes later): Servicing id=3 "status 0x800f0816". During pre-installation (about 12 minutes after download): Servicing id=1 "change state from Resolved to Installed", WindowsUpdateClient id=43 "started installing". Around here I get a Notification Center alert about a reboot being required to install updates. For shutdown (later, when I click Start > Shut down): User32 id=1074 "Other (Unplanned)", Servicing id=4 "A reboot is necessary before package can be changed to Installed state" Starting up again (several hours later): Servicing id=2 "Package successfully changed to Installed state", WindowsUpdateClient id=19 "successfully installed update" The sequence of events for downloading, with that specific status code in a "failed to change state" event, apparently means it's an "express package" or something. It downloads a manifest or something for the update, determines what files are actually needed, then downloads just the new files required for this system. I.e. the package starts out "absent" and then becomes "staged" after download has finished. The Servicing id=3 event says "failed" despite there being no failure, because there is a status code it wants to log. nielsm fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 06:46
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Xarn posted:I was worried more about finding out that some improperly tested update means that bitlocker encrypts the volume with different key or something like that I've been managing it in a corporate environment for years and I've never seen anything like that. The only big issue is that it uses the concept of a secure enclave between things like the TPM, firmware levels, OS boot sector, and some other attributes and if any of those change the TPM won't release the key until you type in a recovery key so make sure you have it accessible in some way. It does this because modifications to the attributes it monitors could all be potentially malicious so it wants to prompt you to make sure it was a change you are aware of.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:00
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I just got a "Now, Schedule, Remind Me Later" popup to update while I was in the middle of a game. Lord release me from the prison that is windows 10.
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Jun 21, 2017 05:00
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Hey guys, I'm having some problems with, I think, Windows Update. I suspect I was screwing around with something and hosed it up myself, but then forgot that I did that. So there are many possibilities that are my fault and I take blame for that, but hopefully there's still a way to fix some of this bullshit. I'm on Windows 10 pro x64, preview build 16215. I was trying to enable developer mode today to install bash. However, when I do tick developer mode I get the message "Developer mode is turned on. However, remote deployment and Windows Device Portal couldn't be found in Windows Update, so they're not available. Error code 0x800f0950." The tickers for Enable Device Portal and Device discovery on that page are also greyed out. I also think I'm not getting any Windows Updates. I'm not sure now, I'm gonna go check the logs after I write this but I make a habit of manually checking for updates often, even though Windows does it on its own. And for a very long time I have not been getting any updates when I check. I thought at first automatic update was just being really good but now I don't know. The only update listed under "Installed update history" is the upgrade to this build of Windows 10. And that was back on the 9th. I do have logs that say "Windows Update started downloading an update.", so that's good, but there's nothing else and I'm thinking maybe their should be. That seems to be it though, not that I know where to look. So, any ideas? I've got everything else set up real nice so I would really rather not refresh or reformat if I have to. But I also really want bash, Windows update, and a generally working system as much as betas usually are I guess. Edit: I've set some services to manual instead of automatic. I read about each one and followed one of those probably lovely "these services are ok to disable" guides on the Internet and thought I could skirt by without breaking anything. But it was long enough ago that I don't know which services or what guide. But if I had to guess, I hosed something up there. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 17:15
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BrainDance posted:So, any ideas? I've got everything else set up real nice so I would really rather not refresh or reformat if I have to. But I also really want bash, Windows update, and a generally working system as much as betas usually are I guess. Important to remember those can just as well be app store stuff, if you have automatic updates enabled in Store. As for your issue with getting WSL/Bash working, you don't need Device Portal or Device Discovery for that. You just need to make sure the Windows Subsystem for Linux feature is turned on through the classic Programs and Features > Turn Windows features on or off control panel, reboot, then type "bash" at a command prompt to set up your environment.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:29
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nielsm posted:Important to remember those can just as well be app store stuff, if you have automatic updates enabled in Store. Well I had tried that out and rebooted and stuff, wasn't working. Then I removed it, rebooted, and tried installing it from an admin powershell hoping at least it might give me some more diagnostic info. Ran 'Enable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName Microsoft-Windows-Subsystem-Linux' and it didn't tell me anything useful, just asked me to reboot, which I did. Get back into Windows, try to run bash from a command prompt and I still get; "Windows Subsystem for Linux has no installed distributions. Distributions can be installed by visiting the Windows Store: https://aka.ms/wslstore" Which... what? I've done this before and don't remember installing a distro from the Windows Store. And even going to the store I cant find anything relevant. Also from what I can tell aka.ms seems to actually go to a legit Microsoft domain. It looked sketchy as hell to me and I thought "Still got virus problems or something?" but it seems right. Don't know why they used such a weird, shortened url. And if I manage to get bash that's all good, but Windows Update giving those weird errors and maybe not even working at all I still definitely need to fix.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:45
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For the Windows Update issue, try using this http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/windows_update_minitool.html and see if it picks up anything. Also try running the troubleshooting tool from within Windows.
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Jun 21, 2017 20:42
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Microsoft also just updated their Update Troubleshooter that you can download. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/instantanswers/512a5183-ffab-40c5-8a68-021e32467565/windows-update-troubleshooter
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Jun 21, 2017 20:43
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I ran the update troubleshooter, and it did apparently find things, these were my results; And then I rebooted. But there still isn't anything in my update history (and it rebooted like normal, not like it was dealing with updates). And after the reboot I still get the same error when trying to turn on developer mode and checking for updates doesn't come up with anything. So, I guess those problems were just different unrelated problems :\
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Jun 21, 2017 21:08
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baka kaba posted:You have to draw the line at some point, I'm saying it shouldn't be interrupting basic use cases like streaming a TV show or running a large download, unless it's a dire emergency. It's not my job to work out the ideal policy, they just need to make it less user-hostile. If you're trying to do something not even slightly unusual and your computer interrupts it (or becomes outright unusable because of a long update) then that's a Bad Thing, and they should be avoiding that I run Twitch steams and YouTube videos on my computer almost literally 24/7. At what point should Windows decide to update?
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Jun 22, 2017 11:16
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