Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



ImplicitAssembler posted:

Battodo only represent a tiny part of JSA. To proclaim that he's 'best JSA fencer in the world' is rather silly and something I'm pretty sure he would never do himself.

That's why I said "one of", of which I'm sure he can arguably be considered.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

Right. I was one of the best dodgeball players in the world...using our own unique rules in our neighbourhood.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



ImplicitAssembler posted:

Right. I was one of the best dodgeball players in the world...using our own unique rules in our neighbourhood.

If you can find a world-spanning group of dodgeball players who would agree, became the president of a large country's specific dodgeball federation, were invited to teach to other dodgeball rulesets because your particular technique and teaching abilities were highly regarded, then maybe, sure.

I'm sorry there's no exact metric for me to express who is and isn't one of the best JSA fencers in the world (outside of acknowledgment from people within that and other realms of fencing). I tried to be nice to you, but now you're being condescending and pedantic. Maybe you should just shut up and train?

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

Verisimilidude posted:

If you can find a world-spanning group of dodgeball players who would agree, became the president of a large country's specific dodgeball federation, were invited to teach to other dodgeball rulesets because your particular technique and teaching abilities were highly regarded, then maybe, sure.

I'm sorry there's no exact metric for me to express who is and isn't one of the best JSA fencers in the world (outside of acknowledgment from people within that and other realms of fencing). Maybe stop being so pedantic and shut up and train?

Again, Battodo represents a *tiny* part of JSA. Call him the Battodo Champion of the Galaxy if you want, but by calling him one of the best JSA fencers, you are setting yourself (and him) up for ridicule.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



ImplicitAssembler posted:

Again, Battodo represents a *tiny* part of JSA. Call him the Battodo Champion of the Galaxy if you want, but by calling him one of the best JSA fencers, you are setting yourself (and him) up for ridicule.

I'd argue he is one of the best, which doesn't at all exclude anyone else from my meaningless superlative, so maybe you should just chill and not make it into such a big deal when it's literally not an issue?

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

ImplicitAssembler posted:

you are setting yourself (and him) up for ridicule.

From pedantic, argumentative assholes like you? If so, who cares?

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

Why don't you ask Sang? Pretty sure he cares.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Let's bring this thread back on track:

What is everyone doing for training at home and on their own?

I'm doing a basic flexibility/bodyweight routine three times a week, as well as practice cuts and thrusts 5 times a week. Can't afford classes right now, so sparring is usually out of the picture for me.

Flexibility/Bodyweight:

10 minute warm-up
Variations of squats
Variations of pull ups
Variations of handstands
Variations of leg raises
Variations of push ups
Variations of horizontal pulls
2 minute planks (usually broken up into 1 minute chunks)
10 minutes of stretching

Variations will shift every other week or so, though I've been stuck on pull ups/horizontal pulls because I have relatively poor upper body/core strength.

Practice Cuts + Thrusts:

First 5 of each cut is done slowly to check for proper body mechanics, last 10 are done at speed, listening for clear and distinct tachikaze. Last 5 are done with step.

15 scheitelhau (cuts from above the head, to opponent's head)
15 scheitelhau (cuts from above the head, all the way down)
15 oberhau from the left (cuts from above the left shoulder)
15 oberhau from the right (cuts from above the right shoulder)
15 unterhau from the right (ascending cuts from the right)
15 unterhau from the left (ascending cuts from the left)
15 krumphau (diagonal cut ending in crossed hands, to opponent's forearms)
15 schielhau, absetzen variant (short-edge cut ending in open arms, to set opponent's sword to the side, and then thrusting to opponent's face)
15 mittelhau (horizontal cut from the waist, alternating between sides)
15 zwerchau (horizontal cut from above the shoulder, alternating between sides)
15 zornhau ort (short cut to take center, followed by thrust to the face)
10 thrust from fluge, with gathering step into lunge

I'm also eating healthier. Cutting out excess sugar, one to two meals a day are without carbs, most meals are focused on protein/healthy fat + vegetable intake, not eating after 9:00 PM, drinking more water, and eating smaller meals with healthy snacks throughout the day (have a big jar of nuts at my desk). Lost about 5 pounds in the last two weeks, not counting the water weight I've lost from eating a lot of garbage for the past few months.

Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jun 20, 2017

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004


Verisimilidude posted:

Mainly condescending armchair-fencers who think Liechtenauer's tradition is The One True Martial Art. Anything He didn't prescribe is foolish and pointless. So gekken sparring? Sparring in gear? Sparring with sharps? Cutting with sharps? Tournaments? All useless. Edit: Anything that isn't drilling at 70% speed is not The Art (this was just told to me, I at least thought their school sparred, but I was wrong). Here is an exact quote in response to the video:

"How did this add to our collective knowledge of the Liechtenauer tradition? It did not."

No poo poo! It's two people from completely different schools of swordsmanship sparring for funsies, and people keep applying their own neurotic insecurities on it.

I guess they've never heard of the "One True God" Joachim Meÿer :smug:

Seriously though, that vid sounds dumb.

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

Verisimilidude posted:

Let's bring this thread back on track:

What is everyone doing for training at home and on their own?

I'm doing a basic flexibility/bodyweight routine three times a week, as well as practice cuts and thrusts 5 times a week. Can't afford classes right now, so sparring is usually out of the picture for me.

Flexibility/Bodyweight:
10 minute warm-up
Variations of squats
Variations of pull ups
Variations of handstands
Variations of leg raises
Variations of push ups
Variations of horizontal pulls
2 minute planks (usually broken up into 1 minute chunks)
10 minutes of stretching
Variations will shift every other week or so, though I've been stuck on pull ups/horizontal pulls because I have relatively poor upper body/core strength.
That looks like a great routine, similar to Starting Bodyweight:
http://www.startbodyweight.com/

Right now, I'm doing Longsword class twice per week, study group once per week, and generally open sparring once a week. I try to get in some drills at home on my pell when I can but don't have a set plan for those, generally just repping out things I worked on in the prior weeks' classes.

For my own fitness, I'm deloading for Longpoint and just focusing on conditioning, so steady state cardio and some kettlebell/db circuits.
After Longpoint, I'm planning on doing 5 weeks of super focused aerobic conditioning (running 3x times/week), and bodyweight circuits 2x a week, and some yoga. From there, I'm going to phase back in barbell training 2x a week, running 1x a week, and bodyweight circuits 2x a week.

Shameless plug: I'll be writing about the specific plan on my blog, http://www.hemastrong.com/ =P

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Uziel posted:

That looks like a great routine, similar to Starting Bodyweight:
http://www.startbodyweight.com/

Right now, I'm doing Longsword class twice per week, study group once per week, and generally open sparring once a week. I try to get in some drills at home on my pell when I can but don't have a set plan for those, generally just repping out things I worked on in the prior weeks' classes.

For my own fitness, I'm deloading for Longpoint and just focusing on conditioning, so steady state cardio and some kettlebell/db circuits.
After Longpoint, I'm planning on doing 5 weeks of super focused aerobic conditioning (running 3x times/week), and bodyweight circuits 2x a week, and some yoga. From there, I'm going to phase back in barbell training 2x a week, running 1x a week, and bodyweight circuits 2x a week.

Shameless plug: I'll be writing about the specific plan on my blog, http://www.hemastrong.com/ =P

It was super nice meeting you! Sorry I couldn't stick around for Sunday, my grandma broke her arm so I paid her a visit.

And yeah, I'm basically using the Starting Bodyweight plan as a template, and I'm hoping to add more sword-specific things to it as I get back in shape. I wish I could afford classes on kettlebells since I have one at home, but I'm worried about hurting myself with bad form.'

Uziel
Jun 28, 2004

Ask me about losing 200lbs, and becoming the Viking God of W&W.

Verisimilidude posted:

It was super nice meeting you! Sorry I couldn't stick around for Sunday, my grandma broke her arm so I paid her a visit.

And yeah, I'm basically using the Starting Bodyweight plan as a template, and I'm hoping to add more sword-specific things to it as I get back in shape. I wish I could afford classes on kettlebells since I have one at home, but I'm worried about hurting myself with bad form.'
Yeah, it was great to meet you too! And no worries, that's understandable.
Kettlebell form can be tough, I was lucky enough to have a friend that's a kettlebell instructor. This is a decent guide: https://www.jensinkler.com/fix-your-kettlebell-swing/

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

I shifted cities at the start of the year, I should really sort out a gym membership :/
However, my biggest thing right now (and I'm getting lessons for it) is getting my timing down, fighting my reflexes and not overcommitting/over-anticipating into parries/ripostes/disengages. There's so much going on when you're not on autopilot: feint/take the blade, look for the response, move the hand, keep distance with the feet, find the opening, hit. Tiny, minute changes in tempo make so much difference and the constant changes in mental focus are bloody tiring.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Verisimilidude posted:

What is everyone doing for training at home and on their own?
Dumb things!
I think I've patellar tendinitis. :sigh:

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Siivola posted:

Dumb things!
I think I've patellar tendinitis. :sigh:

Haven't fenced in better part of two months because of quadriceps tendonitis. :sigh::hf::sigh:

So everyday in the gym has been arm and ab day, and other than my PT exercise (which, actually, seems pretty decent for fencing) my only leg work had been biking around hard.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK
Cybernetic Crumb

Verisimilidude posted:

Practice Cuts + Thrusts:

First 5 of each cut is done slowly to check for proper body mechanics, last 10 are done at speed, listening for clear and distinct tachikaze. Last 5 are done with step.

15 scheitelhau (cuts from above the head, to opponent's head)
15 scheitelhau (cuts from above the head, all the way down)
15 oberhau from the left (cuts from above the left shoulder)
15 oberhau from the right (cuts from above the right shoulder)
15 unterhau from the right (ascending cuts from the right)
15 unterhau from the left (ascending cuts from the left)
15 krumphau (diagonal cut ending in crossed hands, to opponent's forearms)
15 schielhau, absetzen variant (short-edge cut ending in open arms, to set opponent's sword to the side, and then thrusting to opponent's face)
15 mittelhau (horizontal cut from the waist, alternating between sides)
15 zwerchau (horizontal cut from above the shoulder, alternating between sides)
15 zornhau ort (short cut to take center, followed by thrust to the face)
10 thrust from fluge, with gathering step into lunge
Yea, I do something like that too: I try to do at least all the meisterhäue, normally in some combinations that I make up on the spot.

I also concentrate on footwork (sometimes as standalone, normally as part of the meisterhäue program) and use a wooden pole as target for accuracy and distance training.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Guys. Guys, hey guys. When you're fencing longsword, do you ever get the feeling your kit's rubbish?

Neyman's got you covered. Now you can dress up as Batman while you fence.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Siivola posted:

Guys. Guys, hey guys. When you're fencing longsword, do you ever get the feeling your kit's rubbish?

Neyman's got you covered. Now you can dress up as Batman while you fence.

I think it looks rad but for $800+ lol gently caress that

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK
Cybernetic Crumb

Siivola posted:

Guys. Guys, hey guys. When you're fencing longsword, do you ever get the feeling your kit's rubbish?

Neyman's got you covered. Now you can dress up as Batman while you fence.
Since the gambesons that are sold as fencing jackets are garbage anyhow (the plate above them is missing) I think that that kit is awesome.

They missed the chance to make a memorable codpiece though, instead its just that lame crouchplate thingy.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001

I'm planning on running a friendly tournament later on this year, epee with costumes sounds like it could be fun. Or at least, turning up with a poncho and a wide-brimmed hat like a desperado gunfighter would be pretty rad.

[edit]Batman? That outfit looks more like 80s sci-fi to me. It just needs some sneakers and sunglasses, and how difficult would it be to trick out your glove to look like a nintendo powerglove?

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jun 24, 2017

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Crazy Achmed posted:

[edit]Batman? That outfit looks more like 80s sci-fi to me. It just needs some sneakers and sunglasses, and how difficult would it be to trick out your glove to look like a nintendo powerglove?

If they were black they'd look like stil-suits from Dune.

Hazzard
Mar 16, 2013
Several people at my club have one of Neyman's other jackets. We'd all solidly recommend them.

And for my exercises (mainly doing Highland Broadsword, but learning bits of Italian Sidesword and when I'm back at Uni, sports fencing) I mainly practise lunging and try to do at least a handful of pressups every day. Unfortunately when I went to Uni I fell out of the habit of doing some exercise everyday.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Hazzard posted:

Several people at my club have one of Neyman's other jackets. We'd all solidly recommend them.

And for my exercises (mainly doing Highland Broadsword, but learning bits of Italian Sidesword and when I'm back at Uni, sports fencing) I mainly practise lunging and try to do at least a handful of pressups every day. Unfortunately when I went to Uni I fell out of the habit of doing some exercise everyday.

I'm super interested in what they're offering. They seem well-constructed and they offer a lot of customizability that others won't even touch, and their standard jacket isn't that expensive considering what you get.

I'm currently running with a knock-off Pakistani jacket since my SPES AP jacket went to poo poo. It's not bad considering it cost $125, but there are certainly limitations that make it very uncomfortable and difficult to move in. But it does have certain things that make it a step in the right direction. It has a belt around the waist to allow weight to be distributed across the torso, and it has venting on the back. Plus they even put a giant version of my school's logo on the back! But it's very stiff, kind of difficult for me to breath in (but I have a wide torso so ymmv) and it's difficult for me to raise my arms over my head.

Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jun 27, 2017

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Neyman gear is generally okay. A guy at my club has the renaissance jacket and it seems okay, if a touch light. Comes with a belt, too. I've got their mask overlay and while it looks pretty cool and works alright, the wings are way huge and the whole thing extends too far behind my head. At least last year they were absolutely swamped with orders, so if you order custom stuff, settle in for a wait.

Oh, and knee update: Probably not tendinitis, just a sprain. Time to chill out for a while and invest in some proper arch support once I'm well again.

Kinda feel like a moron for disregarding literally everyone telling me to get proper shoes. :v:

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Barefoot is the way to go! :black101:

I bought the Lynx Jacket from south coast swords and really hate it. Too bulky, not flexible enough, and doesn't feel that protective for all that. I've tried to give it a reasonable break in time but putting it on after 5 months or so, I can't tell any decrease in rigidity. Too bad, because the price is pretty great.

Anyone have a link or email for a cheap Indian or Pakistani gambeson? I may give one of those a shot and see how it compares.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Unzip and Attack posted:

Barefoot is the way to go! :black101:

I bought the Lynx Jacket from south coast swords and really hate it. Too bulky, not flexible enough, and doesn't feel that protective for all that. I've tried to give it a reasonable break in time but putting it on after 5 months or so, I can't tell any decrease in rigidity. Too bad, because the price is pretty great.

Anyone have a link or email for a cheap Indian or Pakistani gambeson? I may give one of those a shot and see how it compares.

Turns out the Pakistani jackets are also South Coast Swords jackets! Yeah, they're bad.

Hazzard
Mar 16, 2013
I don't bother with fancy shoes, I just wear trainers. My club has what some might call an obsession with footwork. I see it as we emphasise lunging properly so we don't hurt our legs. I've seen a couple of videos of being lunging in a way I don't think is safe, including a Skallagrim video, where he actually hurt his knee doing it.

Also, someone asked me to watch his broadsword video. He counted the sighs I made. It was a lot.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Hazzard posted:

I don't bother with fancy shoes, I just wear trainers. My club has what some might call an obsession with footwork. I see it as we emphasise lunging properly so we don't hurt our legs. I've seen a couple of videos of being lunging in a way I don't think is safe, including a Skallagrim video, where he actually hurt his knee doing it.

Also, someone asked me to watch his broadsword video. He counted the sighs I made. It was a lot.

Trainers/barefoot are fine, people go crazy over things like shoes but really it shouldn't make a difference. If you notice you're wearing the shoe, there's an issue. Like lately I've been using these Merrell skin shoes that are super thin and super light, but they're also slightly rounded on the bottom which disrupts my ability to plant my foot, and I'm worried I'll roll an ankle or something. Otherwise they're perfect, they actually feel better than barefoot.

Also Skallagrim is very groan-worthy.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Three weeks ago I'd have said the same thing. And because I insisted on fencing in Chucks instead of shoes that would support my flat feet, here I am shitposting in the fencing thread instead of actually fencing. :sigh:

I mean fancy shoes are obviously not a substitute for proper footwork, but I don't want to gently caress around with my poor battered legs any more.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



So the LHFL put out their new qualifications for participating in future tournaments.

quote:

With the enthusiastic support of club/school leadership from our region's major groups, The Longpoint Historical Fencing League will be phasing in cutting qualifiers during the 2017-2018 season. These qualifiers will not be required to be completed for at least the first half of the season, but may be phased into requirement during the second half, depending on how the tracking goes over the next 6 months.

How do these cutting qualifiers work?

- To encourage the continued handling of a sharp sword by those in our region, and to reinforce the mindset that we are simulating sharp weapons with our training tools, anyone participating in a LHFL event must have completed a basic cutting pattern on a single tatami mat within the last two years.

- The cutting pattern will consist of one cut from above on the right, one cut from above on the left, and one cut from below from a side of your choosing within the space of a single tatami mat. The cuts must be clean and good without any significant errors. For instance, small angle issues or very tiny mountains are okay. Large scoops, small or large mountains, or major angle issues are not. Errors do not count against you as long as you can complete these three cuts on a single mat. You may fail the right oberhau twice and then complete it successfully, and that will count for your right oberhau, assuming the mat does not get too beat up or too short to complete the pattern.

- The Longpoint Cutting Tournament qualifying round, since it is a higher bar than the league qualifier, will be used to start constructing a pre-qualification list. Anyone who completes the Longpoint pattern without significant error will be qualified for the league. We may also allow people to use extra mats on Sunday at Longpoint for $10/mat to complete the League qualifying pattern.

- Anyone who has gotten to the finals or consistently otherwise gets to the second and third rounds of a cutting tournament at FNY or Longpoint over the last three years will be pre-qualified.

- For future qualifications, we would prefer that those who wish to participate in league events send a clear video / video link over email to the league of them completing this pattern. We will be looking into the logistics of allowing for qualifiers at league events, but this may depend on just how many people need to qualify. This bullet point is the main reason we are not phasing in cutting quals right away. We will see where we stand after the next few months.

- Once qualified, a fighter is able to participate in LHFL events for two seasons; (1) The season they have qualified within (or the next season if the qualification happens between seasons), and (2) the season directly following the first season. We will be attempting to keep logs of cutting tournaments in an effort to continue organically qualifying people in the future.

We will have more concrete information on this after Longpoint.

The TL;DR version: If you can't cut two decent oberhau and a decent unterhau on a tatami mat, you cannot compete.

The issues are mounting. The response to this seems to be mostly a negative one, with the "enthusiastic support" being a few club leaders, with little consensus among club participants/students. Elitism is rising, with club leaders straight up saying anyone who can't complete these cuts is a "bad fencer".

The First Issue: Availability and Access. Not everyone has access to a sharp cutting sword, tatami mats, or proper cutting training. The idea that if you just practice really hard you'll be able to cut is bullshit, as there are many specific issues involved in cutting properly that are difficult to ascertain without proper training. Videos can only teach so much. Some people will be able to cut from day one. Some people have been training regularly for three+ years and can't cut for poo poo. Our knowledge of how to train everyone to cut properly is incomplete, and cutting as an art form is still new in terms of representation in HEMA. To expect all LHFL participants to cut to a certain degree, even a relatively simple one, means many people will be left in the dust.

The Second Issue: The Qualification Itself. I keep hearing different stances of support on this from the same people: On one hand it's so easy a 10 year old can learn to do it in a few minutes (and to prove this, they show a video of a 10 year old doing an ok cut). On the other hand, being able to complete the cuts requires constant practice and dedication. Both stances are insulting. The attitude being taken here is that you're either being compared to a literal child, or you just aren't dedicated to the art. After all, if you were dedicated, you'd pass the qualification! But if the qualification is so easy a 10 year with several minutes of training can do it, why is it such a necessary qualification? It defines the completing of these basic cuts as both 'a sign of dedication to The Art' and 'a simple metric that anyone can complete'. Also, who is going to watch all of these cutting videos? The staff is already swamped with preparation for the year's events, and now people are expected to pour over dozens if not hundreds of qualification videos just to put a check next to someone's name?

The Third Issue: Who This Affects. This ultimately affects many different groups, and I can't name every single one, so I'll just list the ones I know off the top of my head: poorer fencers, women, and smaller people. Poorer fencers is obvious: cutting swords are expensive, let alone actual good cutting swords. Tatami is costly if you don't buy it in bulk, and mat stands can be expensive to buy/produce/ship. Women: Women in general have a harder time cutting, mainly because the training doesn't reflect the physiological differences between men and women. There is a disconnect in "proper form and technique" when you have a chest that expands out more than a few inches from your body, when your shoulders are differently proportioned to your torso, etc. Angles become geometrically more shallow, the necessity of proper hip rotation increases, and so on. Women have to have a much higher level of control over their bodies than men do (in general) in order to effect a proper cut, especially when they are of a smaller frame. If these are some of the groups affected by this, then therefore the people who are not affected by this are, generally: wealthier large men, which does not at all preclude unartful musclebros and bad fencers.

The Fourth Issue: Cutting is Not an Indicator of Good Fencing. I know people who are good cutters and poo poo fencers. Turns out if you have decent hip-to-sword movement and a razor sharp sword, you can cut a tatami mat to a reasonable degree. On the other hand, I know people who are really good fencers, but they can't cut. These are people who have been practicing for years, have won tournaments, travel the world practicing and being a major part of the community. They are respected for their ability to fence. But, for various reasons, they can't cut. Whether it's because of laws in their area that prohibit the acquiring of a sharp sword, whether it's money, whether it's the problems I described in The Third Issue, etc. Whatever those reasons are, because of this ruling they will no longer be allowed to participate in LHFL tournaments, of which they have more than likely been a part of for a while now. Furthermore, based on the attitude displayed by certain leading figures in various groups, these people are now "bad fencers", by some administration's own strict definition.

The Fifth Issue: This Will Not Increase the Quality of Fencing. People are just gonna get to the point where they can pass the quals once every 2 years and then forget cutting exists. The idea of the tournament is that they will get weeded out through progression, as good fencers rise to the top and worse fencers sink to the bottom. If that's the case, why have a qualification at all? All you've done is eliminate the prospect of good fencers who can't cut from participating, while granting bad fencers who can cut the opportunity to compete. I, for one, will be sharpening my Alexandria to a razor sharp degree and will freely offer it to anyone who wants to pass this qualification.

The Sixth Issue: The Attitude and Elitism. I've seen otherwise respectable people get crazy disrespectful over defending this bad, poorly thought out qualification. I've seen people in private and public online venues directly and indirectly call people in their own schools "bad fencers" just because they can't cut. I've seen those same defenders complain about the hard work they do and how they deserve respect while simultaneously making GBS threads on students around the world. The tone has shifted overnight from a very positive outlook for future American HEMA, to a more definite culture of elitism and cliquishness. By changing the definition of "good fencer" to mean a particular subset of HEMA practitioners, they've moved the goal posts and left a lot of people behind to catch up. None of this matches with the stated goals of the LHFL on their very own website, and I can only hope that more people speak out about these changes and how they effect everyone.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May
Do you have a link for this or did you receive it via email? Would like to discuss with my club mates but can't find a source for the info. Thanks!

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



Unzip and Attack posted:

Do you have a link for this or did you receive it via email? Would like to discuss with my club mates but can't find a source for the info. Thanks!

All I have is am FB link from the lhfl group.

https://www.facebook.com/LongpointHFL/posts/311062805986468

P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007

If you are training to kill people with a sword (there is no good reason to do this, but if you are) and cannot actually do so because your cuts don't sever enough tissue to reliably kill or maim, that is a problem you should correct, and it's probably a more critical one than whatever techniques you're working on in sparring. If you think tameshigiri or this pattern in particular is a bad way to test or train this quality that's one thing, but if you're asserting damaging cuts aren't very important to being a "good" fencer I'm going to disagree. (For the record, I am very much a "bad" fencer any way you slice it.)

My concern is that these "bad" fencers would really benefit from coming to the LHFL events where a lot of the really good cutters and cutting instructors are and if this discourages and excludes them it may be counterproductive.

On the third hand, there's enough HEMA events these days that if this policy is practically or philosophically a problem you can find plenty of other tournaments to enter, which I think the enactors of this policy are fully aware of. The impression I got is that they're doing it in their corner of the community to try to shift the martial<---->sport overton window so to speak rather than thinking it's a policy that would be appropriate across HEMA as whole. Maybe they want to stave off a sport/martial rupture, or maybe they want to bring it about in an act of nihilistic accelerationism.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



P-Mack posted:

If you are training to kill people with a sword (there is no good reason to do this, but if you are) and cannot actually do so because your cuts don't sever enough tissue to reliably kill or maim, that is a problem you should correct, and it's probably a more critical one than whatever techniques you're working on in sparring. If you think tameshigiri or this pattern in particular is a bad way to test or train this quality that's one thing, but if you're asserting damaging cuts aren't very important to being a "good" fencer I'm going to disagree. (For the record, I am very much a "bad" fencer any way you slice it.)

My concern is that these "bad" fencers would really benefit from coming to the LHFL events where a lot of the really good cutters and cutting instructors are and if this discourages and excludes them it may be counterproductive.

On the third hand, there's enough HEMA events these days that if this policy is practically or philosophically a problem you can find plenty of other tournaments to enter, which I think the enactors of this policy are fully aware of. The impression I got is that they're doing it in their corner of the community to try to shift the martial<---->sport overton window so to speak rather than thinking it's a policy that would be appropriate across HEMA as whole. Maybe they want to stave off a sport/martial rupture, or maybe they want to bring it about in an act of nihilistic accelerationism.

I'm not saying cutting isn't necessary to being a "good fencer", but it's arbitrary to use that metric to determine who is and isn't good enough to compete in a tournament, especially since it is only a portion of the overall fencing experience and skillset.

I think everyone should practice cutting, and it should be in everyone's repertoire, but so should a hundred other things. Attempts to delegitimize sportification are fine, and their attempt to do that with the Triathalon was a solid step in that direction. Lift up people who excel in various HEMA-related skill sets, and give people the opportunity to pursue those other activities if they can, while giving those who aren't interested in pursuing more than one or two events the opportunity to compete.

edit: The perspective I have is that this ruling is poorly thought out. It's meant to fix an issue that doesn't exist, and it does so in a way that doesn't stop "sport fencers" or "sword taggers" from entering competition (their stated goal, based off of other passive aggressive posts). It's arbitrary. Do more stuff that lifts the best fencers up from the competitors, not stuff that pushes people down in an attempt to make them collectively "get good".

Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jun 28, 2017

P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007

Verisimilidude posted:

I'm not saying cutting isn't necessary to being a "good fencer", but it's arbitrary to use that metric to determine who is and isn't good enough to compete in a tournament, especially since it is only a portion of the overall fencing experience and skillset.

I think everyone should practice cutting, and it should be in everyone's repertoire, but so should a hundred other things. Attempts to delegitimize sportification are fine, and their attempt to do that with the Triathalon was a solid step in that direction. Lift up people who excel in various HEMA-related skill sets, and give people the opportunity to pursue those other activities if they can, while giving those who aren't interested in pursuing more than one or two events the opportunity to compete.

edit: The perspective I have is that this ruling is poorly thought out. It's meant to fix an issue that doesn't exist, and it does so in a way that doesn't stop "sport fencers" or "sword taggers" from entering competition (their stated goal, based off of other passive aggressive posts). It's arbitrary. Do more stuff that lifts the best fencers up from the competitors, not stuff that pushes people down in an attempt to make them collectively "get good".

I hear you, I think there's a broad agreement on the goals and then a lot of problems in implementing solutions in a way that's fair and helpful for people at all levels and situations.

Another proposal was to combine the sparring and cutting tournaments into a single event, which would emphasize the importance of cutting without locking anyone out from even entering.

Hazzard
Mar 16, 2013
I haven't done any cutting, but I'd like to. I agree it's a skill worth practising. However, my club has no sharp swords and no mats, but we have expressed interest in getting some carcasses off the commoner in our club. Then we'd cut up some pigs and deer.

I don't see how they could weed people out the tournament without either A: Some kind of standardised ranking, which I, and I think most people, would wholly disagree with.
Or B: Everyone sends in some footage of them sparring, but that has its own issues.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

So, just how many people turn up to those tournaments?

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges



ImplicitAssembler posted:

So, just how many people turn up to those tournaments?

Got one number that said 340 registered for this year's Longpoint.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Verisimilidude posted:

Got one number that said 340 registered for this year's Longpoint.
:popeye: Everything's bigger in America, I guess! This year's Norway Open only had 36 longsword fencers.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

BirdOfPlay
Feb 19, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Siivola posted:

:popeye: Everything's bigger in America, I guess! This year's Norway Open only had 36 longsword fencers.

Over 4,000 fencers will be at the US Fencing Summer Nationals and July Challenge in Salt Lake City, which is a 10 day event. The bigger events in fencing here just get ridiculous at times. For us in the Olympic side, we've got a lot of officials (refs, armorers, and bout committee) that do an incredible job keeping these things running smoothly.

I'm actually curious how the HEMA tourneys manage it, given y'all have much greater space concerns. I was working the Capitol Clash this year which also has the DC HEMA Open under its umbrella for the weekend. The Clash probably had around 30 strips for the 1,000+ kids that'll be competing over the 3 days, but the HEMA event only looked like their had about 9 rings setup for over 100 fencers.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply