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Read the vn for maximum enjoyment of the routes.
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Jun 27, 2017 15:19
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 16:46 |
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I watched Fate/Zero first and am halfway through Unlimited Blade Works now. That was a hell of a tonal shift
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Jun 27, 2017 17:05
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Having not read the novel it was based on, I thought the Zero anime was a better individual story than the UBW anime. Mostly because I disliked some of the changes they did to some of the more pivotal scenes towards the end in UBW, which wrecked the pacing a bit and/or just didn't give it quite the weight it needed. I still enjoyed it a bunch though and the anime-only new content at the very end was done extremely well. Now if we're talking VN UBW (to say nothing of HF), then it's no contest, I definitely like that way more than anything in Zero.
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Jun 27, 2017 17:46
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Fate/Zero pretty much has to be sad due to its nature as a prequel to a story where we already knew that the events that happened before it Went Terribly Wrong. We knew Kiritsugu had to be a massive jerk to Saber, destroying the grail and starting a fire that killed lots of people. We knew that Kiritsugu did awful, amoral things to secure his victory. Rin's dad had to die, Rin and Sakura had to be seperated, Illyasviel lost her father, and so on.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:40
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there are definitely things in F/Z that just come off as pointlessly mean-spirited though, like the constant child murder and basically kariya's entire arc.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:46
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Urobuchi is worse than Nasu at writing.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:54
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Blockhouse posted:there are definitely things in F/Z that just come off as pointlessly mean-spirited though, like the constant child murder and basically kariya's entire arc. Dude was at his emoest when writing FZ. At least that got it out of his system.
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Jun 28, 2017 05:10
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(to be clear I don't mean to imply Kariya isn't a sadsack loser who was right about anything he did just that everything he was and everything around him was built to be absolutely pointlessly sad)
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Jun 28, 2017 05:14
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At least part of it is that mages are terrible people.
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Jun 28, 2017 05:14
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My favorite part is when Kiritsugu kills his mom in an episode that aired on mother's day
cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 05:16
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cheetah7071 posted:My favorite part is when Kiritsugu kills him mom in an episode that aired on mother's day It really helps sell his terminator like obsession with trying to save the world and his heel turn at the end. I think F/Z comes off better mainly because it is an adaption from a book that isn't splitting it's narratives, plot, and themes across three routes deliberately designed to contrast and reference each other (Also because there's just too much to fit into one route). Like rereading the first two routes after Heaven's Feel and there's a lot more to take in and pick up. In my ideal world we get a new Fate route anime after Heaven's Feel and Hollow Ataraxia.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:06
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fate/zero sucks my rear end and all the interesting and likable characters are sacrificed so kiritsugu can jack off about himself, which'd be interesting if the show didn't clearly think kiritsugu was the most badass guy ever
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Jun 28, 2017 06:30
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Actually Fate/Zero is cool because it's animated by UFOTable and has music by Kajiura, and has noted cool characters Saber, Rider, Waver, and Gilgamesh
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Jun 28, 2017 06:36
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Endorph posted:fate/zero sucks my rear end and all the interesting and likable characters are sacrificed so kiritsugu can jack off about himself, which'd be interesting if the show didn't clearly think kiritsugu was the most badass guy ever Isn't basically the entire point of FZ is that Kiritsugu is wrong? The idea that Kiritsugu's actions are "cool" seems like is people getting the wrong vibe from the show.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:Isn't basically the entire point of FZ is that Kiritsugu is wrong? The idea that Kiritsugu's actions are "cool" seems like is people getting the wrong vibe from the show. That's my understanding of it. He's able to keep doing what he does because he justifies it as being a worthy price to pay. And then Grail-kun basically just shows him where that leads. Being the "cool" ends-justifies-the-means guy goes nowhere and at the end of it, your friends are all gone and you've got nothing to show for it.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:59
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the show does that but it also dedicates like multiple minutes-long scenes to him jacking off his guns. the message is muddled.
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Jun 28, 2017 07:13
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You can be cool while being wrong
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Jun 28, 2017 07:19
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I think the show is trying to make you buy into it just like Kiritsugu does until the end, or a little before.
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Jun 28, 2017 07:19
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You can be both cool and a gigantic douchenozzle. See: Gilgamesh
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Jun 28, 2017 07:42
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You mean you can be cool and rich
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Jun 28, 2017 09:11
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The Strange Fake manga is really good if you enjoy smug mages getting loving owned constantly. Like, nothing is going right for any of them, at all.
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Jun 28, 2017 11:00
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Raenir Salazar posted:Isn't basically the entire point of FZ is that Kiritsugu is wrong? The idea that Kiritsugu's actions are "cool" seems like is people getting the wrong vibe from the show. Yeah, the show illustrates the main flaw of "I'll make big sacrifices in order to save/help even more people" thinking: in real life it's impossible to completely predict the results of your actions, so if your idea doesn't work you've just managed to hurt/kill a bunch of people for no reason. (Though I guess you could argue that his actions were still reasonable, given that succeeding would have literally created world peace or whatever.) One thing I think would have been a really good way to show the flaws in his approach even better is if his plans ended up failing not due to just a false assumption (which is basically what happened), but due to his actions causing his relationships and trust with his allies to deteriorate. While you could argue this happens with Saber, from what I recall it never actually causes any bad results by itself.
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Jun 28, 2017 11:14
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It feels like that would have been a good role for Maiya if they had used her more. Her absolute devotion steadily being worn away over the course of the series could have been interesting, culminating with her defending Iri not because she had been ordered to by her master but because she wanted to protect her friend.
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Jun 28, 2017 11:25
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I'm not sure if making Kiritsugu even less likable is what F/Z really needed. What they set out to do with Kiritsugu felt complete whether you took away that he was right or wrong or liked him or hated him. But I do agree that Maiya was underutilized. What bothered me more was the stuff with Saber. It felt like they were trying to set up multiple inner-conflicts with the character that never went anywhere and then F/Z ends. The whole drinking party between kings leads to nothing for her. Saber serves more as a centerpiece for philosophical debate between Gil and Iskander, but she has no story arc for herself. At best, a very disjointed one.
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Jun 28, 2017 12:18
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Trihugger posted:What bothered me more was the stuff with Saber. It felt like they were trying to set up multiple inner-conflicts with the character that never went anywhere and then F/Z ends. The whole drinking party between kings leads to nothing for her. Saber serves more as a centerpiece for philosophical debate between Gil and Iskander, but she has no story arc for herself. At best, a very disjointed one. That's the cost of being a prequel, I guess. They can't really develop her main storyline because she has to start from the beginning in F/SN, and they can't really do a different story with her because she's fanatically devoted to her goals throughout.
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Jun 28, 2017 12:30
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Understanding the foolishness of Kiritsugu's actions works best when you see someone who idolized him (Shirou) go through the same motions, but by the end of Heaven's Feel is able to come out the other end with his own answer and form of salvation. It's why I strongly dislike the notion of going through Zero first because otherwise its themes get really muddled.
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Jun 28, 2017 12:48
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f/z sucks https://twitter.com/N9559/status/880036062621343748 let's talk about astolfo
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Jun 28, 2017 13:33
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Is that maid D'Eon right there with seifuku Astolfo, because if so then i have died and ascended to trap heaven 
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Jun 28, 2017 13:34
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holy poo poo that drake design rules
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Jun 28, 2017 13:39
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might be drake alter, to go with emiya alter also, drake, d'eon, and herc animation updates
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Jun 28, 2017 13:42
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I am so glad Fergus and D'Eon are getting another chance to do cool things. I am also glad the Riyo characterization of Gudao has achieved quasi-canon. EDIT: Drake's new NP is going to crash all of the phones. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 13:48
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So do we talk JP updates here now or Either way I am Very Excited for Drake Alter despite the fact I was hoping I wouldn't have to spend any quartz on this remnant. Now I have to roll on the likely second banner for it. 
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Jun 28, 2017 13:54
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the camelot and apocrypha CE quests are up. the ces are garbage (+50 master exp and +50 mystic code exp respectively) but the camelot quest gives about a half dozen medals and the apocrypha one gives a couple of gold saber statues. they're both super easy so theyre worth doing just for the mats
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Jun 28, 2017 14:21
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Trihugger posted:What bothered me more was the stuff with Saber. It felt like they were trying to set up multiple inner-conflicts with the character that never went anywhere and then F/Z ends. The whole drinking party between kings leads to nothing for her. Saber serves more as a centerpiece for philosophical debate between Gil and Iskander, but she has no story arc for herself. At best, a very disjointed one. Really? I always thought Saber's development was one of the stronger points of Zero, especially considering the limitations of having to relatively match what we knew from Stay Night and Hollow Ataraxia. By the time of FSN, Saber is basically a depressed mess. Her country has fallen apart and many of her knights have betrayed her. Zero is the answer to the question of why she doesn't want to use the grail to fix everything, but rather to run away, to turn back the clock and make it so that she never became king. It's pretty a pretty bit of intense self loathing that she believes that her doing anything else to try and save her country would be hopeless. She's essentially broken. Zero posits that she wasn't broken at Camlann, that she was still the embodiment of her ideals, still working to save Britain, but that it was the events of Zero that broke her. And if anything, her meeting with Iskander and his challenge to her notion of a king, his rejection of her ideal, that really sealed the deal. Much of what she went through- Caster's macabre deeds and Kiritsugu's trampling over the very idea of chivalry, for instance- is repugnant to her, but what really shakes her to the core is the self doubt planted in her by the meeting of Kings, which come to fruition in her battle with Lancelot. She thought she was doing everything she could to save her country, and that Iskander was a conquering tyrant who didn't care that his empire didn't last beyond his death. And yet Iskander held such sway over his men that they followed him even in death, while Saber's trusted knights were proven to hate her so much that they were driven to madness. IIRC Fate Zero has even been described by Urobuchi and Nasu as just being 200 pages of Saber bullying, which is absolutely true, but I think it still adds another layer of development to her character and nicely sets up where she was mentally at the start of FSN.
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Jun 28, 2017 15:00
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Bakanogami posted:Saber's trusted knights were proven to hate her so much that they were driven to madness. I don't think any of them hated her. Lancelot was driven to madness because when he was confronted about his betrayal, Saber just kind of shrugged it off and refused to admonish him.
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Jun 28, 2017 15:17
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Bakanogami posted:Really? I always thought Saber's development was one of the stronger points of Zero, especially considering the limitations of having to relatively match what we knew from Stay Night and Hollow Ataraxia. Maybe I misunderstood her character starting point. I admit that I didn't watch the first 3 or 4 episodes of Fate/Zero. I actually walked in on my sister watching it midway through the first season and just hung around and watched the rest of it with her. I thought Saber started out wanting to kill herself so to me, it felt like her arc never went anywhere. If her initial wish in F/Z was to save Britain rather than erase her reign than it's not as meandering as I thought.
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Jun 28, 2017 15:29
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Hommando posted:I don't think any of them hated her. Lancelot was driven to madness because when he was confronted about his betrayal, Saber just kind of shrugged it off and refused to admonish him. Yeah, none of them did. With Apocrypha and FGO we now know that even Mordred was just a huge Tsundere who wanted to be acknowledged. But Saber didn't know that. She basically cheered on Lancelot and Guinevere, figuring she couldn't exactly be a good husband. We the reader were treated to a passage on how that clashed with Lancelot's chivalry and he wanted to be punished for his betrayal, but Saber didn't. She just knew that one of her knights showed up in the Holy Grail war completely insane and who went out of his way to try and kill her every time they met. Trihugger posted:Maybe I misunderstood her character starting point. I admit that I didn't watch the first 3 or 4 episodes of Fate/Zero. I actually walked in on my sister watching it midway through the first season and just hung around and watched the rest of it with her. I thought Saber started out wanting to kill herself so to me, it felt like her arc never went anywhere. If her initial wish in F/Z was to save Britain rather than erase her reign than it's not as meandering as I thought. It's been a little while since I last watched or read F/Z but it's at the start of the King's Banquet when they're debating what they would do with the grail. IIRC Saber says that she would use it to go back and live her life again to do things right and save her country, contrasting with Rider, who's proud of his life, even if he died young and his empire collapsed, and finds the idea of redoing it insulting. This sounds similar but is different to her wish in FSN, where she wants to go back and live her life again and not pull the sword from the stone, believing that she was such a huge fuckup that someone else would be better for her country than she would, even if she had the assistance of the grail. At the start of Zero she's still living towards her ideal, trying to be a good king by self sacrificing for the nation, being a good chivalrous knight. By the end her ideals have all been dragged through the mud and she despairs and decides that it would be best if she had never become king in the first place.
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Jun 28, 2017 17:50
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Bakanogami posted:Yeah, none of them did. With Apocrypha and FGO we now know that even Mordred was just a huge Tsundere who wanted to be acknowledged. I think it's more like, she didn't know *how* to react to Lancelot and Guinevere. Even if he couldn't help himself, Lancelot knew what he was doing was a betrayal of his king, but I never got the impression Saber ever thought there was anything worth punishment.
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Jun 28, 2017 18:31
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I recall Arturia was personally not too bothered with it but her role as the Just King required her to punish Lancelot for his betrayal And then he killed Gareth while making his escape and hoo boy poo poo went downhill
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Jun 28, 2017 18:46
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Arturia's mistake was one of poor communication. Lancelot hooks up with Guinevere and Arturia just says nothing so he doesn't know how to react. Is she okay with it, or is she secretly judging him? If she had just said "hey, I'm okay with this since I'm a straight chick and can't have a functioning romance with Guinevere" he might not have been driven so crazy. So it's not so much that punishment was required, but that Arturia never made it clear what her feelings were and where she stood.
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Jun 28, 2017 19:19
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