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Platonicsolid posted:But the back half is so much better! Big case of miscasting, IMO, perhaps worsened by the directors and the fans missing what JMS had in mind for the character (and JMS doing nothing to course correct). I also suspect the character would have worked better as Ivanova's love interest. What was needed is someone you could believe as a cult leader, another hippie Jesus-alike, but with a sense of creepiness and underlying darkness. Basically, exactly the character Zack sees and describes to Lyta. But Downes is simply too clean-cut and good/good-looking to make that work, and as a result the telepath cult comes across as genuine as good despite the plot desperately saying otherwise again and again. And instead of having an Ivanova falling for someone superficially like Marcus and refusing warnings because the last time she didn't take a chance she regretted it, we end up with poor abused Lyta in circumstances where she's getting empowered. We want Byron to be better than he is, but the show too often makes us think that it agrees and just can't quite stick the landing. The intent that he be Ivanova's next tragic mistake would have provided a sense of inevitable doom that the show struggles to replicate with mixed success, forced instead to rely on the Byron-Lyta-Bester relationships to function. I think Lorien has the same problem: he's so obviously wise and good that the level of mistrust and creepiness we should feel (is he another Kosh, or more like Ulkesh?) simply isn't there at all. The show has the same problem with Sheridan, who's clearly supposed to be different enough that we wonder if Garabaldi might be right about him, but who's both played and shot as pretty much fine.
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Jul 9, 2017 05:16
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One thing I really notice so far is when things get weirder and more surreal JMS's dialogue really improves. Like the bit in All Alone In The Night and Z'ha'dum. "same group, different department"
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Jul 9, 2017 05:26
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Narsham posted:What was needed is someone you could believe as a cult leader, another hippie Jesus-alike, but with a sense of creepiness and underlying darkness. Basically, exactly the character Zack sees and describes to Lyta. But Downes is simply too clean-cut and good/good-looking to make that work, and as a result the telepath cult comes across as genuine as good despite the plot desperately saying otherwise again and again. Basically James Callis as Gaius during his Messianic phase in BSG would've been a phenomenal direction to go, but B5 wasn't good about subtle or seductive evil it was all pretty 100% obvious from the get go and you'd see the characters convince themselves they were making a good choice.
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Jul 9, 2017 08:51
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:...what?! Really? Yep. Bester's canon date of birth is September 3rd 2189. The Unlife Aquatic posted:One thing I really notice so far is when things get weirder and more surreal JMS's dialogue really improves. Like the bit in All Alone In The Night and Z'ha'dum. Isn't that an example of dialogue getting worse as things get more surreal?
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Jul 9, 2017 10:00
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Yeah, Bester is quite old. By the time of Mind War, he'd had quite the full life. I think by the time he dies he's just about one hundred or thereabouts (he dies a day or two after Sheridan does, peacefully in his sleep, with a statue erected in his honor).
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Jul 9, 2017 10:36
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Milky Moor posted:Yeah, Bester is quite old. By the time of Mind War, he'd had quite the full life. I think by the time he dies he's just about one hundred or thereabouts (he dies a day or two after Sheridan does, peacefully in his sleep, with a statue erected in his honor). Not quite. iirc It's all one last final joke for Bester at everyone's expense by pure accident, because the baby in the statue raised against PsiCorps is wee babby Bester.
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Jul 9, 2017 11:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Not quite. iirc It's all one last final joke for Bester at everyone's expense by pure accident, because the baby in the statue raised against PsiCorps is wee babby Bester. Yeah, I know, but that's the thing. The statue is honoring his mom and dad and their infant child as the ideal of the new post-Psi Corp order -- Bester was that child. He's the only one who knows and gets to die getting the last laugh.
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Jul 9, 2017 12:51
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pentyne posted:Basically James Callis as Gaius during his Messianic phase in BSG would've been a phenomenal direction to go, but B5 wasn't good about subtle or seductive evil it was all pretty 100% obvious from the get go and you'd see the characters convince themselves they were making a good choice. Well, Morden/Kosh was subtle early on, and the Narn/Centauri conflict at least sees a shift in the good/evil dynamic across the series.
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Jul 9, 2017 16:57
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Narsham posted:Well, Morden/Kosh was subtle early on, and the Narn/Centauri conflict at least sees a shift in the good/evil dynamic across the series. I just have one question; What do you want?
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Jul 9, 2017 16:59
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Narsham posted:Well, Morden/Kosh was subtle early on, and the Narn/Centauri conflict at least sees a shift in the good/evil dynamic across the series. It's not so much a shift in the dynamic as a shift in the perception of it. G'Kar is the sabre rattling angry alien from a species on the rise, Londo is the drunken old fool from the declining power who also looks a lot like we do. Morden shows us the reverse of that: G'Kar wants justice in the form of revenge, but when Morden asks him what he wants after he genocides the Centauri he has no answer. His dreams aren't big enough for the Shadows because they stop once the perceived wrongs against his people have been avenged. And all Londo has is a wistful longing for the past, but that wish for old glories is enough because when you want to be a conqueror there's no end to that. Neither of them really understands what he wants or where it leads until they're shown, but neither of them changes either.
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Jul 9, 2017 17:18
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Narsham posted:Well, Morden/Kosh was subtle early on, and the Narn/Centauri conflict at least sees a shift in the good/evil dynamic across the series. Morden oozed raw evil from every moment on the station. Behind his weirdly out of place hair and soft spoken manner it was extremely obvious he was not there to do favors for people for charity. He had that kind of creepy niceness to him that you normally didn't get on early 90s serial television that made you think he was there to ruin someone's life despite all the manners in the world.
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Jul 9, 2017 21:09
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It still casts a shadow over the entire first half of the season as the primary story arc. Once it gets put to bed the season makes a massive jump in quality. It kind of sticks in the craw that so much more time was spent on that storyline than, say, whatever was originally planned for Lennier's arc. But you know what the worst part about it was? That loving song. Someone on the comments for that clip has it right, Byron was essentially a Jim Jones figure but this doesn't come across at all in the direction of the show. Especially when they're putting him in what looks like a soft focus new age music video(see clip above). pentyne posted:Morden oozed raw evil from every moment on the station. Behind his weirdly out of place hair and soft spoken manner it was extremely obvious he was not there to do favors for people for charity. He had that kind of creepy niceness to him that you normally didn't get on early 90s serial television that made you think he was there to ruin someone's life despite all the manners in the world. It's a classic Mephistophilean bargain; a mysterious and powerful stranger shows up and offers you the thing you want most in the universe, in exchange for a terrible price. The twist that JMS put on the idea was essentially making him a sales rep for the forces of evil. I wonder if that character archetype existed before Faust or if it's even older than that? Pretty drat old in any case.
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Jul 9, 2017 22:38
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Maelstache posted:It's a classic Mephistophilean bargain; a mysterious and powerful stranger shows up and offers you the thing you want most in the universe, in exchange for a terrible price. The twist that JMS put on the idea was essentially making him a sales rep for the forces of evil. Versions of the tale of the Smith and the Devil have been found that predate Classical mythology. The story may be as much as 6000 years old.
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Jul 10, 2017 00:02
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Good to know human souls have never been worth poo poo.
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Jul 10, 2017 01:28
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pentyne posted:Morden oozed raw evil from every moment on the station. Behind his weirdly out of place hair and soft spoken manner it was extremely obvious he was not there to do favors for people for charity. He had that kind of creepy niceness to him that you normally didn't get on early 90s serial television that made you think he was there to ruin someone's life despite all the manners in the world. Kosh was also extremely creepy, especially in the first season, where the audience perception of them as "good" didn't in any way match their behavior. Morden, on the other hand, started out genuinely helpful to Londo, though obviously a creep. If Londo hadn't ditched him, he probably would have remained so, despite being obviously "evil." Given the Vorlon/Shadow conflict was configured along Law/Chaos anyway, it's tough to be too clear on their Good/Evil natures. Maelstache posted:It kind of sticks in the craw that so much more time was spent on that storyline than, say, whatever was originally planned for Lennier's arc. The song works better when they all kill themselves. The problem is that at that point, you're more happy that they did than creeped out.
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Jul 10, 2017 01:42
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Yeah, Sheridan doesn't quite work as a balanced character who "may or may not be in the right". He's presented as in the right basically all the time. It's arguable a few times in text, or in what he's actually doing, but the show doesn't do a good job as selling it as morally grey. Might just be how Boxleitner plays it. Kosh I think was more of an unknown quantity when B5 was originally airing, I mean we go back and we know the context now so it's hard to revisit the mystery of it. Byron just isn't being played right for what he's doing. I don't think it's the actor's fault but he was not the right choice.
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Jul 10, 2017 03:30
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Sinclair: Well, after all, no one knows exactly what you look like. That makes some people a little nervous. Kosh: Good.
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Jul 10, 2017 04:12
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Bieeardo posted:Sinclair: Well, after all, no one knows exactly what you look like. That makes some people a little nervous. One of Kosh's best moments. I also liked his other chat with Sinclair where it's like: Sinclair: Those are images from my world. If I may ask, what are you... Kosh: I am studying. Sinclair: Studying what? *Kosh shuts down his encounter suit and waits for Sinclair to leave* Pick posted:Yeah, Sheridan doesn't quite work as a balanced character who "may or may not be in the right". He's presented as in the right basically all the time. It's arguable a few times in text, or in what he's actually doing, but the show doesn't do a good job as selling it as morally grey. Might just be how Boxleitner plays it. True. There's a lot of times where the people attacking him have valid points (Did he really die? How does anyone but him and the mysterious alien who is with him know that? He's leading an insurrection against the government he swore an oath to support, but the government is Super Hitler, etc. etc.) but Sheridan's always portrayed as heroic moral sort doing the right thing for the right reasons. B5's guiding principle is probably that it is a good thing to stand up for what you believe is right, no matter the cost, and that is what Sheridan does. It's like how the show tends to make noise about Sheridan blowing up the Roanoke and killing thousands of people and, yeah, that sucks, but the show never really explores any consequences.
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Jul 10, 2017 04:41
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Kosh when he stood by while the Vorlons blew up the deathwalker ship was probably the 1st season defining moment for what the Vorlons were. It kind of seems like an advanced superpower helping out the little guys then you realize they are so beyond reproach or consequence they are borderline gods to the rest.
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Jul 10, 2017 04:50
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Narsham posted:Big case of miscasting, IMO, perhaps worsened by the directors and the fans missing what JMS had in mind for the character (and JMS doing nothing to course correct). I also suspect the character would have worked better as Ivanova's love interest. Remember the Underground Railroad for telepaths episode ? My contention is that the spokesman for the railroad, the man with a lisp and some physical issues, should have been Byron. In fact, I propose that the whole Telepath arc in season 5 would have been gold if he'd been re-used instead of a new character.
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Jul 10, 2017 05:01
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I don't think there was supposed to be any ambiguity on the audience's part as to whether Sheridan was doing the right thing. Bombing Mars and Proxima were bad enough, but the show made a big deal out of Earth destroyers shooting down liners full of helpless civilians. There were numerous ways JMS could have tried to fuzz that - the liners ignored orders to heave to and prepare to be boarded, the liner tried playing chicken with a destroyer, make it not a fully loaded starliner but a transport shuttle trying to run the orbital blockade - but he pretty clearly chose to make it black-and-white mass murder. I think about the only way it could have been worse is if Clark had gone on a public broadcast and announced a general planetary bombardment with mass drivers against the secessionist colonists to exterminate them right down to every last traitorous man, woman, and child.
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Jul 10, 2017 05:23
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Season 5 has "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari", that makes it worthwhile alone.
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Jul 10, 2017 12:06
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mossyfisk posted:Season 5 has "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari", that makes it worthwhile alone. It has Sleeping in Light, more importantly.
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Jul 10, 2017 13:40
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Jedit posted:It has Sleeping in Light, more importantly. No, that's technically season 4.
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Jul 10, 2017 13:42
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mllaneza posted:Remember the Underground Railroad for telepaths episode ? My contention is that the spokesman for the railroad, the man with a lisp and some physical issues, should have been Byron. In fact, I propose that the whole Telepath arc in season 5 would have been gold if he'd been re-used instead of a new character. He certainly had the acting chops, but I don't think he had the charisma to sell himself as a face of a cult. Plus there'd be the whole "yes, this apparently heroic but actually kind of creepy" character being played by an actor with disabilities. There's enough of that already. A James Callis/Baltar type would have been just about right. A shame Jeffrey Combs/Harriman Gray wouldn't have served the story, because he could probably have pulled it off. Honestly, the best casting would probably have been Ed Wasser if he hadn't already played another very important character in the series. Would have been interesting to cast George Takei, but he wouldn't have been a credible protege for Bester.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:01
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It also doesn't work as well with the Ubermenschy undertones of the telepath war
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Jul 10, 2017 20:20
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Narsham posted:A James Callis/Baltar type would have been just about right. A shame Jeffrey Combs/Harriman Gray wouldn't have served the story, because he could probably have pulled it off. Honestly, the best casting would probably have been Ed Wasser if he hadn't already played another very important character in the series.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:28
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Honestly, there a so few shows that actually have the heroes deal with the political fallout of their actions, especially genre shows like Babylon 5. I am a huge fan of space politics and the fact that Babylon 5 prominently deals with them is the main reason I love the show so much. And I competently agree that they telepath colony should have been featured more on the show. It's really weird too. After that episodes, the fact that there even is a group of free telepath on the station and that Franklin is one of the major person in the underground railway is completly dropped from the show. I mean, once Babylon 5 declares independence and it becomes clear that PsyCorps is a major factor in Clark's regime, you figure the colony would be come a bigger plot point, not vanish without a trace. Or when they start to hire telepath to fight the shadow ships. Essentially, the existence of the free telepath is basically retconed, since Byron's group is treated as competently new. Which is really a shame, since the underground railroad was such a better idea, both in concept and execution. As for the portrayal of the sides as a grey or black and white conflict, I just finished season 4 on my current rewatch and something that always bugs me is the way the show portraits the loyal Earthforce officers when contrasted with the way Clark's regime. They make it pretty clear that there are horrible war crimes happening, but at the same time, they have way to many officers going on about how they just don't think the military should dictate policy. Which is a giant load of bullshit! That extends to characters like Lochley. Maybe that is just me, but if you stand idle by while your government commits war crime after war crime, hiding behind protocol or even actively defending that regime against those who want to stop it, you are at least complicit in every atrocity that could have been prevented. e X fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 20:33
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Narsham posted:He certainly had the acting chops, but I don't think he had the charisma to sell himself as a face of a cult. Plus there'd be the whole "yes, this apparently heroic but actually kind of creepy" character being played by an actor with disabilities. There's enough of that already. You mean Nameless Bridge Officer #2 in the pilot?  (I joke, of course. The character was called Guerra. )
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Jul 10, 2017 20:46
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e X posted:As for the portrayal of the sides as a grey or black and white conflict, I just finished season 4 on my current rewatch and something that always bugs me is the way the show portraits the loyal Earthforce officers when contrasted with the way Clark's regime. They make it pretty clear that there are horrible war crimes happening, but at the same time, they have way to many officers going on about how they just don't think the military should dictate policy. Which is a giant load of bullshit! That extends to characters like Lochley. I would ask you if you've been living under a rock for the past however long, but if you had the USA surely would have bombed and tortured you.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:38
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e X posted:Honestly, there a so few shows that actually have the heroes deal with the political fallout of their actions, especially genre shows like Babylon 5. I am a huge fan of space politics and the fact that Babylon 5 prominently deals with them is the main reason I love the show so much. Not quite. Didn't Sheridan tell him to shut down the underground railroad to keep the PsiCorps away? As for the second thing, yeah that always bothered me, too. Still, it's obviously post-hoc rationalization by people who were just being good li'l soldiers and following orders. (Though I'd still love to know how you can enforce a planetary curfew).
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Jul 10, 2017 21:43
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I found Sheridan telling Kosh off very satisfying, but the consequences are awful. 
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Jul 10, 2017 22:34
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mojo1701a posted:Not quite. Didn't Sheridan tell him to shut down the underground railroad to keep the PsiCorps away? The jumpgates. Only big military ships seem to have jump drives (White Star is the notable exception). So, sure, civilians can maybe get off Proxima 3 in a shuttle or freighter or something -- but where are they going to go? And all the civilian freight traffic is going to come through the gate, too. One of my favorite small things in S4 is the EAS Furies, one of the Proxima blockade ships, ends up rejoining the loyalist forces. It might just be a CGI goof but a few episodes after No Surrender, No Retreat, the Furies is fighting on the side of Clarke again.
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Jul 11, 2017 00:23
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e X posted:Honestly, there a so few shows that actually have the heroes deal with the political fallout of their actions, especially genre shows like Babylon 5. I am a huge fan of space politics and the fact that Babylon 5 prominently deals with them is the main reason I love the show so much. The missed trick here really is that none of the telepaths came to Franklin first because of his underground railroad connection, and none of them mentioned the use of telepaths as weapons in the end of the Earth Civil War. Pressing Franklin to come clean about that would have led to all sorts of interesting consequences and helped to motivate what happens with the colony, as well as their increasing distrust of the station staff. Milky Moor posted:One of my favorite small things in S4 is the EAS Furies, one of the Proxima blockade ships, ends up rejoining the loyalist forces. It might just be a CGI goof but a few episodes after No Surrender, No Retreat, the Furies is fighting on the side of Clarke again. Furies doesn't join up, they commit to defending Proxima against retaliation. I wouldn't put it past Clark's people to conceal their losses in the early days by repainting the name on some of their ships, too.
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Jul 11, 2017 00:42
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I don't think there was supposed to be any ambiguity on the audience's part as to whether Sheridan was doing the right thing If you assume the last scene of Sleeping in Light was always planned, it totally makes sense that the audience never seriously doubts Sheridan was the Good Guy. The whole five-season show was one big history/propaganda piece paid for by the Ranger Memorial Fund or something like that. Of course that could also be seen as a final "well yeah my dialog was mediocre and the actors sometimes couldn't quite pull off what I needed them to, but it's totally okay because they were actually portraying the actors who were portraying the historical characters, CHECKMATE" kind of move to deflect criticism.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:47
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bartolimu posted:If you assume the last scene of Sleeping in Light was always planned, it totally makes sense that the audience never seriously doubts Sheridan was the Good Guy. The whole five-season show was one big history/propaganda piece paid for by the Ranger Memorial Fund or something like that. What are you talking about? Sheridan did not do all those things. He was power hungry.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:51
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thexerox123 posted:I found Sheridan telling Kosh off very satisfying, but the consequences are awful. I always loved the way Kosh suddenly gets an expression like Sheridan told him he hosed Kosh's mother just from Sheridan asking the question "What do you want?"
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Jul 11, 2017 02:11
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I always loved the way Kosh suddenly gets an expression like Sheridan told him he hosed Kosh's mother just from Sheridan asking the question "What do you want?" They did a really great job making the encounter suit expressive with little more than head movements and eye-aperture changes.
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Jul 11, 2017 02:19
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thexerox123 posted:They did a really great job making the encounter suit expressive with little more than head movements and eye-aperture changes. And just how loving sinister Kosh II was in comparison with Kosh's subtleties.
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Jul 11, 2017 02:39
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hope and vaseline posted:And just how loving sinister Kosh II was in comparison with Kosh's subtleties. It's the angle of the head. Having it raised higher makes it look like Kosh II is sneering at everything in contempt.
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Jul 11, 2017 08:55
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