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Thanks to whoever it was upthread that recommended go 90 for streaming. Watching episodes I haven't seen since 1998. Don't guess it's compatible with any streaming boxes or game consoles is it?
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Jul 11, 2017 10:06
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's the angle of the head. Having it raised higher makes it look like Kosh II is sneering at everything in contempt. It probably doesn't hurt that he looks like he's cosplaying Maleficent, too.
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Jul 11, 2017 13:22
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Everything about Kosh 2 is more intimidating. He's all hard angular lines with two big horns looming over everything. Kosh 1 had this warm, pleasant green and brown tones with a pleasant voice. Kosh 2 is purple and red and his voice sounds like a sneering buzzsaw. "Respect? From whom?"
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Jul 11, 2017 15:20
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Milky Moor posted:Everything about Kosh 2 is more intimidating. He's all hard angular lines with two big horns looming over everything. Kosh 1 had this warm, pleasant green and brown tones with a pleasant voice. Kosh 2 is purple and red and his voice sounds like a sneering buzzsaw. Yeah everything about him just blatantly says "don't give a gently caress about your meatbag sensibilities, do as I say or screw". The question is, are most of the Vorlons like Kosh 1 or Kosh 2? I'm guessing 2.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:21
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I was always under the impression that they were more like Kosh 2 and Kosh 1 was probably considered odd by the rest of the Vorlons and that's part of the reason he's on the Babylon station to begin with.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:26
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McSpanky posted:Yeah everything about him just blatantly says "don't give a gently caress about your meatbag sensibilities, do as I say or screw". The question is, are most of the Vorlons like Kosh 1 or Kosh 2? I'm guessing 2. It's been a while, but I remember Kosh 2 even saying that Kosh 1 had become too attached to the younger races.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:27
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Milky Moor posted:Everything about Kosh 2 is more intimidating. He's all hard angular lines with two big horns looming over everything. Kosh 1 had this warm, pleasant green and brown tones with a pleasant voice. Kosh 2 is purple and red and his voice sounds like a sneering buzzsaw. Jeffrey Willerth and RD Chamberlain don't get nearly enough credit for the work they did. As someone mentioned earlier, Willerth was able to achieve so, so much with the most subtle movements, and the way Chamberlain could work his voice was phenomenal.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:05
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McSpanky posted:Yeah everything about him just blatantly says "don't give a gently caress about your meatbag sensibilities, do as I say or screw". The question is, are most of the Vorlons like Kosh 1 or Kosh 2? I'm guessing 2. Are most of the Vorlons like Kosh 1 or Kosh 2? The correct answers include: "Yes." "Gesundheit!" "Why are you asking me, I'm a Na'ka'leen Feeder?" Clearly, closer to Ulkesh, or even worse, given that both Kosh and Ulkesh had more contact with other races than the majority of the Vorlons. It's never quite clear what their leadership structure is, or the Shadows' either. One would expect an absolute ruler for the Vorlons and an anarchy for the Shadows, but all the evidence suggests that both groups move as a collective and it's only with the Kosh replacement that we get a sense of different styles or perspectives within either species.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:14
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Understanding is a 3 edged sword
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Jul 11, 2017 23:05
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I always assumed the shadows were a hivemind, but there's not actually any evidence for it.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:45
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mossyfisk posted:I always assumed the shadows were a hivemind, but there's not actually any evidence for it. There's some. Morden has a direct physical reaction when Londo nukes the Shadow base. It's also hinted at in how the Shadows control their ships - while the living minds within do the actual piloting, they are still being controlled by the Shadows at a distance.
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Jul 12, 2017 00:52
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Very little is mentioned about the Vorlon leadership on screen. JMS had said some things though on his newsgroup: "I wouldn't call them friends. They had a certain respect for one another, but Ulkesh always thought Kosh was soft, and Kosh always worried that Ulkesh was dangerous. In their own ways, both were right." "...It wasn't so much a case of Ulkesh turning against the effort, but finally hitting the end of his patience with the humans, and his predecessor's decision to let the 'natives' get out of control." "...Ulkesh was the more military of the two, very isolationist, while Kosh was the curious one, interested in the younger races, and more willing to extend himself (with sometimes unfortunate results). Kosh always worried what Ulkesh would do without his moderating presence...and ultimately had to be the one to take him down to allow the younger races to step forward." "[Kosh and Ulkesh] are not that far apart in age, but yes, Kosh would be a bit older..." He also said that Naranek was a title. I'm pretty sure there's another post where he says that Kosh had enough clout in the Vorlon leadership that he was basically holding Ulkesh's majority sect back and when he was killed the Vorlons basically went "See? SEE?"
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Jul 12, 2017 01:12
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Can we all take a minute to appreciate just how incredible it was that there were actually interesting moments in Crusade? I mean holy poo poo even by 1998/9 standards it was completely terrible. What happened to JMS after Thirdspace that he ok'd anything and everything that was a waste of the IP?
pentyne fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 09:06
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Crusade is freaking high art compared to Legend of the Rangers, and you don't even have to get to the loltastic weapon system for that.
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Jul 12, 2017 09:14
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pentyne posted:Can we all take a minute to appreciate just how incredible it was that there were actually interesting moments in Crusade? I mean holy poo poo even by 1998/9 standards it was completely terrible. What happened to JMS after Thirdspace that he ok'd anything and everything that was a waste of the IP? Crusade seems like it was one half flawed idea, one half studio meddling. TNT did nothing good to it but I don't think it was really that great in the first place. I always thought the Excalibur was an ugly design; its sets were definitely uglier than B5's. The music was terrible compared to Franke. The story, by the sounds of things, seemed like it would've become very similar to B5 (The plague would've been cured early and then the crew would've been fighting an EA conspiracy based around shadowtech). More technomages, the guys who were maybe the worst part of B5 and yet became increasingly prominent as time went on. And an approach to things that was a bit more... magical than B5's hardness. A box that mind controls people, a magical sword, etc. etc. It barely felt like a Babylon 5 thing at all. It felt like a Star Trek knock-off. I think JMS might've just tapped his creative well dry after B5.
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Jul 12, 2017 09:50
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Were Douglas Netter or Harlan Ellison involved after the main series? Maybe the spinoffs were what happened when JMS didn't have them around to check him.
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Jul 12, 2017 15:01
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I think it's just that JMS can make a good thing... if he has 10+ years to work on it. B5 was the story he was carrying around in his head for ages. When he has to come up with something new fast it doesn't go as well, like the first half of season 5.
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Jul 12, 2017 15:09
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Pivoting after O'Hare had to leave worked out pretty well.
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Jul 12, 2017 15:32
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Data Graham posted:Pivoting after O'Hare had to leave worked out pretty well. There was a hole in his mind  .
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Jul 12, 2017 15:49
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Milky Moor posted:Crusade seems like it was one half flawed idea, one half studio meddling. TNT did nothing good to it but I don't think it was really that great in the first place. I always thought the Excalibur was an ugly design; its sets were definitely uglier than B5's. The music was terrible compared to Franke. The story, by the sounds of things, seemed like it would've become very similar to B5 (The plague would've been cured early and then the crew would've been fighting an EA conspiracy based around shadowtech). More technomages, the guys who were maybe the worst part of B5 and yet became increasingly prominent as time went on. And an approach to things that was a bit more... magical than B5's hardness. A box that mind controls people, a magical sword, etc. etc. Did he ever reveal more info about Crusade? That is, what the cure was going to be, the conspiracy angle (never heard that until just now), the truth behind the box?
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Jul 12, 2017 16:47
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Milky Moor posted:The story, by the sounds of things, seemed like it would've become very similar to B5 (The plague would've been cured early and then the crew would've been fighting an EA conspiracy based around shadowtech). And then after he couldn't do that story with Crusade, what was his plan for The Memory of Shadows? Oh, just an Earthforce officer and Galen uncovering an EA conspiracy based around Shadowtech. Dude can't help but repeat himself. It's funny that he wrote the subplot of Garibaldi worrying about Sheridan's cult of personality, because Straczynski cultivated the mother of all cults of personality around him.
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Jul 12, 2017 17:23
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Timby posted:And then after he couldn't do that story with Crusade, what was his plan for The Memory of Shadows? Oh, just an Earthforce officer and Galen uncovering an EA conspiracy based around Shadowtech. Telling the second part of a story in a different medium after being unable to tell it in the original medium is not repetition.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:09
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Grand Fromage posted:I think it's just that JMS can make a good thing... if he has 10+ years to work on it. B5 was the story he was carrying around in his head for ages. When he has to come up with something new fast it doesn't go as well, like the first half of season 5. Well... its not television but I really felt his run on Thor was great. The post civil war Iron Man and Thor meeting was something that still sticks in my mind a decade later and that was something he was forced to put up with due to the universe changing mega crossover event. His Thor run also had this tragic arc of this human that fell in love with a goddess. Bueno stuff. Also his Supreme Power was freakin good and you could tell it was going to lead to some epic shite.... its a shame drama killed his run with Marvel and Supreme Power never got around to fulfilling that potential. But yeah... Has anyone checked out that Sense8 show he writing for? Jeremiah was a bit of alright and I'm curious about his new show. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Were Douglas Netter or Harlan Ellison involved after the main series? Maybe the spinoffs were what happened when JMS didn't have them around to check him. Harlan Ellison being a stabilizing voice of reason and sanity for anyone is hilarious. I love that cantankerous old loon so much. Named my dingo after him. Douglas Netter did the sfx. Crusade dying also iced his company he made just to do b5 shows. From the backstage stuff I read, rumours overheard and the various credits its mostly JMS as the brains behind the show. Still think Crusade could have gone somewhere good if it had the time. JMS biggest flaw is the same one many have: they are giant babies when it comes to their art. gently caress, I do that too. Anyone insisting we do things a different way and we can both go "wah wah"and want to take their ball home. It really is annoying as an adult has to learn the art of compromise and the best artists and writers are the ones who can still somehow sway the suits to go along with them. Also sneaking your rejected stuff under their noses is always the best. I'm not saying I'm in his league but I would feel hypocritical calling someone else a big giant baby and not fessing up to my own flaw.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:30
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Jedit posted:Telling the second part of a story in a different medium after being unable to tell it in the original medium is not repetition. Going back to the "there's a conspiracy within Earth's government and there's Shadow fuckery involved" well after doing it in B5 proper is absolutely repetition.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:56
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Von_Doom posted:Douglas Netter did the sfx. Crusade dying also iced his company he made just to do b5 shows. As I recall, he built Netter Digital in a kind of lovely way, basically doing a smash-and-grab on Foundation Imaging, robbing them of most of their best staff and rendering them a skeleton crew. Foundation was ready to go under until they got the Voyager contract at the last minute.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:03
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Timby posted:As I recall, he built Netter Digital in a kind of lovely way, basically doing a smash-and-grab on Foundation Imaging, robbing them of most of their best staff and rendering them a skeleton crew. Frankly, that sounds like an indictment of Foundation Imaging's management at the time, it shouldn't be that easy to poach talent away en masse.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:05
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Timby posted:Dude can't help but repeat himself. It's funny that he wrote the subplot of Garibaldi worrying about Sheridan's cult of personality, because Straczynski cultivated the mother of all cults of personality around him. Even bigger than the Roddenberry cult? Timby posted:As I recall, he built Netter Digital in a kind of lovely way, basically doing a smash-and-grab on Foundation Imaging, robbing them of most of their best staff and rendering them a skeleton crew. Foundation was ready to go under until they got the Voyager contract at the last minute. The guys at Foundation claim that Netter actually got the less-talented staff, didn't get their custom software package that allowed them to use the office computers as part of the render farm, and also didn't have the ultra-close relationship with Lightwave that Foundation Imaging did: quote:Interview with Ron Thornton quote:Interview with Paul Bryant B5 Scrolls
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Jul 12, 2017 19:45
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Timby posted:Going back to the "there's a conspiracy within Earth's government and there's Shadow fuckery involved" well after doing it in B5 proper is absolutely repetition. Why would you think repetition is a bad thing? "I am bored with this plot," sure, but the act of repeating in itself says nothing about how well or poorly something is done. I do think there's a distinction between "Morden infiltrates Earth's civilian government and Psi Corps" and "agents within the military decide to exploit all this ancient biotech," especially given that we know nothing about the goals or objectives of the latter group save that they evidently didn't want Earth to be saved. In any event, it's hard to judge how Crusade would have turned out given that if we only had the first season of B5 it probably wouldn't rate a thread here and that JMS' original outline for B5 is not nearly as good as what we ended up with.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:46
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Data Graham posted:Pivoting after O'Hare had to leave worked out pretty well. That may have been part of his contingency back door exit plans for each of the characters, should the actors leave.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:06
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mojo1701a posted:Did he ever reveal more info about Crusade? That is, what the cure was going to be, the conspiracy angle (never heard that until just now), the truth behind the box? I don't think so.
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Jul 13, 2017 02:09
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:That may have been part of his contingency back door exit plans for each of the characters, should the actors leave. I remember reading that this was the case; there was going to be someone like Sheridan sent to B5 because Sinclair wasn't really trusted by Earth/Clarke. Milky Moor posted:I don't think so. He may as well since Crusade is never going to go forward, not after JMS' second big attempt at a TV show got canned.
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Jul 13, 2017 06:56
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monster on a stick posted:I remember reading that this was the case; there was going to be someone like Sheridan sent to B5 because Sinclair wasn't really trusted by Earth/Clarke. TBQH, I'm not sure about this. B5 seemed to be well on track to Babylon Prime before Sinclair left. I think bringing Sheridan in was a considerable change in direction to the show.
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Jul 13, 2017 07:19
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Milky Moor posted:TBQH, I'm not sure about this. B5 seemed to be well on track to Babylon Prime before Sinclair left. I think bringing Sheridan in was a considerable change in direction to the show. It would have hit most of the same beats: war against the Shadows, Earth Civil War, the telepath thing, the Centauri get hosed over. Can't you hear Sinclair yelling "get out of my galaxy !" ? You'd probably lose the dying at Za'ha'dum thing, that's Sheridan's story. But Valen is going to need the practice beating up on the Shadows, even with B4's help so Sinclair will be a major war leader. Maybe you end with Sinclair stealing B4 instead of sticking it in the middle.
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Jul 13, 2017 07:36
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Milky Moor posted:TBQH, I'm not sure about this. B5 seemed to be well on track to Babylon Prime before Sinclair left. I think bringing Sheridan in was a considerable change in direction to the show. Maybe? I'm not certain that the sequel show was still in JMS' plans by the time O'Hare left since the ratings for the show were never all that great and syndication was dying. Obviously it wasn't going to star O'Hare unless a miracle happened. Sheridan was different but I think Sinclair would have hit many of the story beats; wife vanishing due to Shadows, some relationship with Delenn (that whole marriage thing from Parliament of Dreams), the conflict with Garibaldi and having it be even more painful because of their friendship, etc. Sleeping in Light would have referred to heading back to the previous war instead but overall the show would have been recognizable. Edit: sorry, forgot the plan was bringing B4 forward to fight the Shadows. I still think the other side of that was the original SiL plot. monster on a stick fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 07:54
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mllaneza posted:It would have hit most of the same beats: war against the Shadows, Earth Civil War, the telepath thing, the Centauri get hosed over. Can't you hear Sinclair yelling "get out of my galaxy !" ? It really wouldn't have. With some small exceptions, B5 S1 is virtually exactly as the original treatment wanted it (literally the only difference is a complete absence of any reference to Bester or Psi Corps). But every episode after that, from S2 onwards, diverges in huge ways with huge plot points becoming tiny elements and the biggest plots -- Earth Civil War, Vorlon/Shadow war, telepath thing, etc -- coming out of nowhere. All the time flashes, flashbacks and such in S1 also match to the treatment much more neatly than the sometimes awkward stuff in later seasons about visions of shifting possible timelines. Consider, for example, the scene between Delenn and Old Sinclair at the end of Babylon Squared (and that episode as a whole). edit: And further, you can see it on some of JMS' archived postings. Prior to Sinclair leaving, he talks in very oblique terms about what we can see in the treatment that's floating around. By the time Sheridan is on the scene, he's talking very differently. Consider that War Without End actively altered some Babylon Squared scenes, too. edit 2: For example, in the original treatment, Valen never existed and that whole thing is missing entirely. Also for example, it appears that Catherine Sakai was to be an Anna Sheridan analogue, but also vastly different. Her arc seems to be 'find out about the Walkers' as per the show, and then start following up rumors and stuff, end up on the homeworld of the Shadows, get mentally altered, return to B5 and become a spy. This was split into Anna Sheridan and the stuff with Talia and Lyta. edit 3: Checking out old JMS internet posts, you can even find posts where he basically says that shuffling Sinclair 'to the side' allowed for them to do newer, different things. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 08:01
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Data Graham posted:Pivoting after O'Hare had to leave worked out pretty well. But that's part of it. He knew the realities of making a TV show and had a planned out and way around for every character in case the actor left. The plan was revised quite a bit as the show went, but all those years of planning showed.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:50
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Grand Fromage posted:But that's part of it. He knew the realities of making a TV show and had a planned out and way around for every character in case the actor left. Absolutely. I think it's more of a credit to JMS that he was able to deal with losing his protagonist and still being able to write such a great story. Perhaps one that is better than his original plan.
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Jul 13, 2017 10:05
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The whole Valen plot is one of the best things in the series. I'm glad they only touched time travel the one time and it was executed perfectly. Though I've seen War Without End multiple times and am still not 100% on how all the various dude in blue suit sightings connect up.
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Jul 13, 2017 10:13
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mllaneza posted:It would have hit most of the same beats: war against the Shadows, Earth Civil War, the telepath thing, the Centauri get hosed over. Can't you hear Sinclair yelling "get out of my galaxy !" ? I'm imagining this in Michael O'Hare's voice, and 
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Jul 13, 2017 13:11
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If it was Michael O'Hare's departure that derailed the whole Babylon prime idea, than it really was a blessing in disguise, because the whole thing sounds horribly convoluted in my ears. Babylon 5's politics were its strongest part and as it sounds, a lot of that would have been lost in favor of time travel shenanigans and more mystic stuff, that was always pretty much hit and miss.
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Jul 13, 2017 13:53
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