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Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

BobHoward posted:

lol put this video on for something to listen to while making lunch and at the end Dave gets an analog designer to confirm his conclusions and the designer's take is gold:

"The circuit would sound better, measure better, and be a tenth the cost if it only used the 5532."

(the 5532 being the opamp which actually drives the headphones)

I can imagine a valve-era amp designer time travelling to the 21st century, looked into the datasheet for a $1 opamp and the first thing he will say is "why the gently caress are you still using tubes?"

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Zemyla
Aug 6, 2008

I'll take her off your hands. Pleasure doing business with you!
I can't wait for an amplifier that has nanoscale vacuum tubes.

Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

Zemyla posted:

I can't wait for an amplifier that has nanoscale vacuum tubes.

Ironic how there is at least one user comment over there about how MP3 sucks like we are still in the dial-up Napster era.

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004

So are all tube amps a waste of time then?

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!
If you want accurate reproduction, then yes.

Panty Saluter
Jan 17, 2004

Making learning fun!

Zemyla posted:

I can't wait for an amplifier that has nanoscale vacuum tubes.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes/3/distortion

From the linked articles - this is showing substantially better noise floor and harmonic distortion performance from tubes. Which is...the opposite of what I usually have heard :raise:

Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️
Even if we take the article at face value, tubes have far worse reliability issues and power consumption, has potentially lethal supply voltages to kill you when changing said tubes, and needs the use of a nasty output transformer.

For low power applications like a headphone amp no discrete design, tube or transistor, even comes close to performing as well as a ~$1 NE5532/NJM op-amp IC which is the closest thing to the ideal straight wire with gain.

Theris
Oct 9, 2007

Combat Pretzel posted:

If you want accurate reproduction, then yes.

And even if you don't, you can get "tube sound" using software/dsps more cheaply and efficiently than using actual tubes.

D1E
Nov 25, 2001


To the people reading this thread who own tube amps: sorry I called you idiots/imbeciles.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

D1E posted:

To the people reading this thread who own tube amps: sorry I called you idiots/imbeciles.
So you also got one now?

Hob_Gadling
Jul 6, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Grimey Drawer

Collateral Damage posted:

Is there ever a reason to use tubes other than for audiophoolery or "it looks cool"?

Fixing (or at least fiddling with) old poo poo is fun. Building retro poo poo is also fun.

D1E
Nov 25, 2001


Combat Pretzel posted:

So you also got one now?

Nah. Just being polite.

To the... not so smart people.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

Alan_Shore posted:

So are all tube amps a waste of time then?

Think of it like buying a 4k TV, feeding it a glorious high-bit rate 4k video and then watching it through a pair of glasses smeared with petroleum jelly.

Malcolm XML
Aug 8, 2009

I always knew it would end like this.
Its the audio equivalent of putting an instagram filter

Fidelity is lost but the effect is sometimes neat

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬



It's important to differentiate AV amps with tubes and guitar/bass amps with tubes. I had a Trace Elliot V6 about 10 years ago and Jesus that thing would rattle your internals.

Foxtrot_13
Oct 31, 2013
Ask me about my love of genocide denial!
In a guitar amp you often want distortion so the tube is doing some good.

In a music amp you want as little distortion as possible, unless that's what you want and tubes will give that to you. Plus they will also help heat your house.


I like the E-Type, but if i had to drive to Scotland and back in a day I would much prefer a Focus.

Kromlech
Jun 28, 2017

by FactsAreUseless
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LP3AMC2

This looks like a good amp and i'm thinking of replacing my scam-vacuum tube poo poo-tier one with it. Thoughts?

grack
Jan 10, 2012

COACH TOTORO SAY REFEREE CAN BANISH WHISTLE TO LAND OF WIND AND GHOSTS!

Kromlech posted:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LP3AMC2

This looks like a good amp and i'm thinking of replacing my scam-vacuum tube poo poo-tier one with it. Thoughts?

The Fiio E10k is an excellent entry-level DAC and perfectly suitable for your needs.

Rescue Toaster
Mar 13, 2003

Panty Saluter posted:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes/3/distortion

From the linked articles - this is showing substantially better noise floor and harmonic distortion performance from tubes. Which is...the opposite of what I usually have heard :raise:

Some of the better tubes have significantly lower distortion than MOSFETS and bipolar transistors, depending on what you're measuring. These measurements were taken without feedback so they're analyzing just the small signal distortion of the device itself. This is of questionable value as a single data point. The 300B is an astonishingly low distortion amplification device when run push pull, when you think about the power you're getting with only local feedback. No pair of transistors is going to get close in that power range without feedback. But when you've got the kind of gain that modern bjts and fets have, you can add so much feedback that the small signal distortion of the device is basically irrelevant.

Rescue Toaster fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jul 10, 2017

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

Foxtrot_13 posted:

In a guitar amp you often want distortion so the tube is doing some good.

In a music amp you want as little distortion as possible, unless that's what you want and tubes will give that to you. Plus they will also help heat your house.


I like the E-Type, but if i had to drive to Scotland and back in a day I would much prefer a Focus.

I'd take the e-type because it's an e-type. But then I drive around in a 30yr old Japanese sports car which eats head gaskets so I'm probably not the best gauge of sanity when it comes to cars... :v:

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Foxtrot_13 posted:

I like E-Type, but if i had to drive to Scotland and back in a day I would much prefer Focus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svnE-eQVtPM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ouPGGLI6Q

Hmm same.

Panty Saluter
Jan 17, 2004

Making learning fun!

Rescue Toaster posted:

Some of the better tubes have significantly lower distortion than MOSFETS and bipolar transistors, depending on what you're measuring. These measurements were taken without feedback so they're analyzing just the small signal distortion of the device itself. This is of questionable value as a single data point. The 300B is an astonishingly low distortion amplification device when run push pull, when you think about the power you're getting with only local feedback. No pair of transistors is going to get close in that power range without feedback. But when you've got the kind of gain that modern bjts and fets have, you can add so much feedback that the small signal distortion of the device is basically irrelevant.

So...would you say they were looking at it in a vacuum??? :ghost:

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong
I mean if you want things to sound just like they did at a certain time period, doing stuff like sourcing specific vintage tube equipment or sourcing matching spec parts and assembling new kit to the old schematics is going to get you that specific sound more accurately than "generic tube sound DSP #4959" being applied to your modern equipment.

Like there's this recording studio in England, where the entire gimmick is that they replicate all the recording layout of a 1950s studio, with all the distortion and sometimes downright bad sound that would create, simply because the founders of it wondered if they could even do it, and were themselves in 50s-style revival bands: http://sugarraysvintagerecordings.co.uk/the-studio/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q-scxybnp0

Nearly all of the main equipment there is from about 1955-1959 originally, obviously with burnt out tubes and the like replaced by identical spec stuff whenever possible. There's also some bits of 1960s and 1970s and even straight up modern equipment available in it as well, usually to simplify doing things like multi-track recording and mixing, though with the ability to stick to the 50s equipment. So like you can show up, record your track, and they'll give you it recorded lossless on an SD card if you need that.

It's honestly a great example of where you really do want tubes, because you're not aiming in the least for high fidelity clean sound, it's as much about seeing if you can make your modern band work with the constraints of about 1958 as anything (and though they mostly do studio time for retro style bands, any sort of style is welcome to try to use the studio)

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof
Tubes are cool and neat things to play with if you're an electronics nerd.
But I'd much prefer them in my bass amp than my stereo.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

If anyone feels like blowing a bunch of money kefdirect.com has the LS50s on sale for $1199 today only.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

qirex posted:

If anyone feels like blowing a bunch of money kefdirect.com has the LS50s on sale for $1199 today only.

meh I've seen it happen a couple of times and I haven't taken the bait yet thankfully.
Acessories4less almost always has them at that price and sometimes even under a grand.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

meh I've seen it happen a couple of times and I haven't taken the bait yet thankfully.
Acessories4less almost always has them at that price and sometimes even under a grand.

I got a new job so it's probably just a matter of time before I join the Order of the Orange Driver. Going to see if I can find some used/refurb though.

Kromlech
Jun 28, 2017

by FactsAreUseless

qirex posted:

I got a new job so it's probably just a matter of time before I join the Order of the Orange Driver. Going to see if I can find some used/refurb though.
Grats on the new job

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Buy a set of Neumann KH 120 A's instead. They're significantly better speakers, at a similar price.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

qirex posted:

I got a new job so it's probably just a matter of time before I join the Order of the Orange Driver. Going to see if I can find some used/refurb though.

I was literally about to click the 'buy' button like 3 months ago, then the wife called me and said "we're buying a house."
At the time I was all :smugjones: because that means we can't spend a dime until we've put money down and budget the rest.
Now I'm like :smuggo: because I realize that I'm gonna get an entire basement to myself.
Soon I'll be all :shepspends: when I start building myself a proper home theater.

Nerobro
Nov 4, 2005

Rider now with 100% more titanium!

Combat Pretzel posted:

If you want accurate reproduction, then yes.

Tubes have their place. You can realistically make a tube "at home". (There's videos all over youtube) While you can't make useful semiconductors at home. (Ask Jeri Ellsworth, she tried..) They also tend to be essentially static electricity proof, and their failure modes tend to be open circuit, as opposed to dead short. And they tend to burn out, versus blow up.

I don't know anyone who can't get their hands on semiconductors. Unless one or two of you is on a desert island and need to build a radio/stereo. You can make circuits tolerant of fail to short. You can put shielding in to handle blowing up, versus burning out. For almost any other situation, you want semiconductors.

The proof is in the pudding though. Instrumentation amplifiers, are all solid state these days. Those ~absolutely need to be accurate~. And modern big concert speakers use semiconductors too, so both precision, and high power, are both best served by sillicon, GaAs, or other solid state stuff.

Tubes do look cool though...

Panty Saluter
Jan 17, 2004

Making learning fun!

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

I was literally about to click the 'buy' button like 3 months ago, then the wife called me and said "we're buying a house."
At the time I was all :smugjones: because that means we can't spend a dime until we've put money down and budget the rest.
Now I'm like :smuggo: because I realize that I'm gonna get an entire basement to myself.
Soon I'll be all :shepspends: when I start building myself a proper home theater.

I mostly want a house so I can run all my custom in-wall theater/whole house audio :pseudo:

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

Panty Saluter posted:

I mostly want a house so I can run all my custom in-wall theater/whole house audio :pseudo:

Whole house audio seems counter to my whole philosophy of "collect as much poo poo as possible."
If I could run every thing from a receiver or two then what the gently caress am I gonna do with the other forty?

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬



I bought a house that someone has already wired the front to the patio, which definitely gave me reason to smile. Haven't had chance to do a test yet as I don't have any audio gear (starting from scratch again after moving). I'm worried that the speaker cabling has been snipped as I can see some sticking out of two parts of the wall which doesn't really make any sense. A battery and a multimeter time...

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

EL BROMANCE posted:

I bought a house that someone has already wired the front to the patio, which definitely gave me reason to smile. Haven't had chance to do a test yet as I don't have any audio gear (starting from scratch again after moving). I'm worried that the speaker cabling has been snipped as I can see some sticking out of two parts of the wall which doesn't really make any sense. A battery and a multimeter time...

I'm a fan of just twisting the wires together and checking for continuity or resistance at the other end.

Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/

Universally reviled company for cheap crappy Chinese knockoffs of the pro audio world produces an $80 audio interface with more I/O connections you can shake a stick at which beats the living poo poo out of $350 audiophile grade DAC in playback fidelity.

Something emperor, something clothes.

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬



Behringer are such an odd company like that. When I used to play in bands, my general rule of thumb was 'if I get something by them, it's not going in my signal chain' but they've kind of legitimized themselves since. They should definitely spin off a premium side too and use higher grade materials while still undercutting the competition.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!
Behringer is Chinese poo poo gear? Heh, friend of mine is a fan of their stuff for nearly two decades. Didn't really question their brand, expected it to be German or something, based on the name.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

Behringer make a lot of cheap lovely products, they also make some cheap fantastic ones... My PA is controlled by their DEQ and DCX products, both of which look like they were designed by different teams or other companies and then bought in. Both work perfectly and have done for many years.

They recently annoyed Moog nerds by saying it wants to produce a range of affordable modular synths and Moog clones seeing as there's no IP and patents have long since expired.

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Panty Saluter
Jan 17, 2004

Making learning fun!
Behringer are the Harbor Freight of audio gear. You might get a cheap tool that works forever or a cheap tool that falls apart instantaneously and it's cheap enough that you can roll the dice a few times. :iiaca:

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