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I've been doing hypnosis as entertainment for friends/family for a few years, and have studied a massive amount of material on the subject. Posting this as a derail from the unnerving thread from PYF, where we discussed the Michael Fine case and the George Kenney case. Basic summary of those: Fine was an Ohio divorce attorney who hypnotized six clients to cause sexual arousal and then suggested amnesia to cover it up, and was busted via hidden camera after one of the women couldn't figure out why her clothes were all disheveled afterwards. It took awhile to convince the cops to do anything, but eventually they came around, as did the Ohio Bar Association, and his license was suspended, and eventually he plead guilty and was sentenced to 12 years. Or, if you don't believe that hypnosis exists, 6 slutty women and the Ohio Bar Association suckered some poor sap into going to jail for no reason. Kenney was a principal at a Florida school who used therapeutic hypnosis techniques with his students- several hundred of them - without any formal psychiatric training. One of the students drove into a tree on the same day that one of these sessions happened, and Kenney was blamed. Two other students later committed suicide, and Kenney was blamed. The school district paid out $200K to each family, Kenney plead out to a misdemeanor with no jail time. http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/28/youre-getting-very-curious-scientists-discover-how-hypnosis-actually-works.html So what is hypnosis, how does it work, what are its limitations? The usual definition is that it's a bypass of the critical factor - meaning that someone is more open to suggestion, because the active part of the decision making part of the brain is not in play. From there, the possibilities expand outwards, but there's some limitations - you can't get a hypnotized person to do something that's against their morals or ethics, as there is still some part of the brain acting as a watchdog to prevent it - the person will emerge from their trance state, and most likely be very upset with the hypnotist. People under hypnosis are not unconscious. They can hear and understand everything going on around them. Hypnosis, however, has some problems with being studied in the usual scientific method way. People respond to it differently. The usual estimate is that ~30% of people are highly hypnotizable, or 'somnambulistic'. This is what allows stage performers to roll with such confidence, because in a large audience, they're basically guaranteed people that are easy to work with. This classification defies correlation - I've searched in vain for awhile to try to find what makes someone somnambulistic, and it doesn't seem to match up with anything other than age, in that younger people tend to be easier to work with, but unknown as to whether that's just because they're more eager and less combative. You can't hypnotize someone who's actively fighting it. The US Government tried that. Back in the 50's and 60's, when they were paranoid that Russia was investigating the possibility of a Manchurian Candidate situation, the CIA put together Project Bluebird and Project Artichoke to test the limits of hypnosis in espionage, combat, and other related situations. These studies are freely available now, and are fascinating reads with very little redaction. Hypnosis in medicine is always a controversial subject, as many people see it as snake oil. http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2015/04/29/3-common-misconceptions-about-medical-hypnosis In my limited fun experiments, I've been able to induce anesthesia, and my unscientific guess is that the signal still reaches the brain, but the conscious mind just ignores the signal. The pioneers of this were Cloquet, a Frenchman, and Esdaile, a Scotsman who worked in India (successfully) and Europe (very unsuccesfully). It's gone through weird waves of popularity, reaching its height in the 50's-70's when Dave Elman was teaching induction and anesthesia techniques to doctors and dentists. It's made a small comeback recently, mostly in the realm of childbirth, where women seeking natural childbirth with less discomfort have found their vehicle. I'll try to answer any questions you have, explain what you saw in a stage show, discuss the criminal cases, etc. Please try to keep threadshitting to a simple registration of your 'I don't believe in thing' opinion.
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Jul 14, 2017 01:35
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From the other thread:outlier posted:There are things that are (near) impossible to scientifically test: morals, historical truth, experiments of an impossible scale (involving millions of years, light years of distance, etc.). But resorting to this defence to explain something that's supposedly happening with a person right in front of you? Makes it sound like psychic powers, or dowsing, or polywater and N-rays. There have been multiple attempts to ban hypnotism, whether therapeutical/medicinal/stage, and the difficulty in doing so is that the trance state is nearly indistinguishable at a physical level from normal. Add in that you have undereducated legislators going up against people who have been doing this their whole lives, and being put on the spot to conjure it with zero training, and it's a one-sided contest. The usual argument, though St. James' was fairly brilliant, is that people drop into trance-like states all the time - if you're driving a familiar route, say to work, and you're thinking hard about something at work, you may not be able to consciously recall whether you hit red lights or green lights on your path. You might not even be consciously choosing your route. Or, if you've ever eaten pistachios, do you make a conscious decision to eat each one? Or do you drop into a pattern of 'crack shell, put in mouth, repeat' until the bag is half gone? Edit: Here's a TEDX talk/demo on some of the basics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RA2Zy_IZfQ Abugadu fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 01:43
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http://www.220.ro/funny/Penn-Teller-Bullshit-Hypnosis/4lkZTP1iFN/ Penn and Teller making fun of hypnotism. edit: may want to turn on all your ad blockers and what not
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Jul 14, 2017 04:45
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Solice Kirsk posted:http://www.220.ro/funny/Penn-Teller-Bullshit-Hypnosis/4lkZTP1iFN/ Kind of easy to cherry pick the quacks who think they can cure cancer with it. P&T have their views, like 'gyms and diets are bs because your genes determine your body', and then artfully select supporting evidence for their show.
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Jul 14, 2017 05:18
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It's easy to pick out fraudster hypnotists, you're right. (It's literally all of them, hypnotism is pseudoscience with as much evidence behind it as phrenology.)
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Jul 14, 2017 05:47
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Captain Monkey posted:It's easy to pick out fraudster hypnotists, you're right. (It's literally all of them, hypnotism is pseudoscience with as much evidence behind it as phrenology.) Uh, no Peg. Literally the first link I posted, known pseudoscientific institute the Stanford School of Medicine providing evidence on the physiological aspects of it.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:26
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Noted fraud academy American Psychological Association: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/01/hypnosis.aspx Fraud U, aka Penn State http://news.psu.edu/story/141251/2014/03/18/research/probing-question-does-hypnosis-work and https://digest.bps.org.uk/2013/08/01/neuroscience-gets-serious-about-hypnosis/ so https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hypnosis-memory-brain/ on https://www.omicsgroup.org/journals/hypnosis-for-ptsd-evidence-based-placebocontrolled-studies-2167-1222.1000S4-006.php?aid=21055 and https://academic.oup.com/bja/article/93/4/505/304478/Hypnosis-for-pain-relief-in-labour-and-childbirth so https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204323904577038041207168300 forth http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/31/does-hypnotherapy-work-science-says-yes/
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Jul 14, 2017 06:35
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Captain Monkey posted:It's easy to pick out fraudster hypnotists, you're right. (It's literally all of them, hypnotism is pseudoscience with as much evidence behind it as phrenology.) Question for you, though, while I have you here - on the Fine case, is there a middle ground between 'hypnosis works' and 'dude got framed for a 12 year prison sentence'?
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Jul 14, 2017 06:37
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How did you learn how to do hypnosis? I haven't seen the mail-away ads in the back of comic books anymore and I'd also like to pick up some x-ray glasses of you could point me in the right direction.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:41
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When I was young and accidentally cut or scraped myself, my mother would say "I'll kiss it better", she would kiss the injury, and I'd feel better. Was my mother a hypnotist?
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Jul 14, 2017 06:43
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Blackchamber posted:How did you learn how to do hypnosis? I haven't seen the mail-away ads in the back of comic books anymore and I'd also like to pick up some x-ray glasses of you could point me in the right direction. Combination of books, videos, and even Youtube demos, but the absolute best way is just actually sitting down and doing it. You learn more in your first few attempts than reading/watching, plus you start to develop your own style re: the word patter. Can't help you on the x-ray specs though, my Boy's Life magazine subscription ran out years ago.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:51
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fantastic in plastic posted:When I was young and accidentally cut or scraped myself, my mother would say "I'll kiss it better", she would kiss the injury, and I'd feel better. Was my mother a hypnotist? It shares a lot of the same elements - declarative statement from someone in a position of authority telling the other person that x will cause y, despite being something that a normal critical factor would dismiss as absurd. But you probably weren't in a trance state at the time, more likely it was acquiescing to authority without much else. There's some overlap with the Milgram experiment effects, i.e. authority means you follow along despite what you ought to be doing, that imo screws up a lot of scientific studies (and probably messed with the US gov. studies). But this gets into another grey area: when does the trance state occur? In my attempts, there isn't a full-on eureka moment where the person I'm working with will suddenly follow every suggestion, it feels more gradual, despite successes with individual phenomena such as a catalepsy or number drop.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:58
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That's what I'm curious about. Is there a difference between acquiescing to authority and hypnotism? It sounds like there's an element of the subject agreeing to play along with the "authority" of the hypnotist, at least in stage hypnosis.
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Jul 14, 2017 07:08
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fantastic in plastic posted:That's what I'm curious about. Is there a difference between acquiescing to authority and hypnotism? It sounds like there's an element of the subject agreeing to play along with the "authority" of the hypnotist, at least in stage hypnosis. There is a difference - there is the authority element in stage hypnosis, as well as medical. It's encouraged in medical, because you want to use every tool available to you. But it's not there in street hypnosis or casual sessions, and you still get the same effects, it's just that your percentage of success might drop slightly. For stage hypnosis, you can tell the people just playing along, because they're not that good. And there's methods for weeding those people out. Like the hard count - similar to football, when you do a count for someone to follow a suggestion, you pause just before the expected signal, and a faker will fall into the gap, whereas someone who's legit under won't.
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Jul 14, 2017 07:20
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fantastic in plastic posted:That's what I'm curious about. Is there a difference between acquiescing to authority and hypnotism? It sounds like there's an element of the subject agreeing to play along with the "authority" of the hypnotist, at least in stage hypnosis. Yeah, submission to authority is a thing that people do. Falling under hypnosis is not. Abugadu - You're misunderstanding the ability for a person to zone out and let time pass, or auto-drive home while they think about stuff with 'hypnosis' a term that is loaded with connotations. If you want to be more reasonable, try to write up a definition of hypnosis or hypnotism so that we can discuss it. You're relying on vague terms and linking dozens of articles that seem to sort of, if you just read the title, support you. You aren't making a very good case. And to answer your earlier question when you were posting like a dozen times in a row in your own thread angrily - Yeah man, the middle ground between 'this dude got 12 years!!!' and 'hypnosis doesn't exist' is that people make up juries, and people are really dumb. Like, do you understand that people have been tried and convicted of witchcraft? And that doesn't make witchcraft real, right? People are regularly accused of witchcraft in some countries, and killed or variously punished for it. Magic does not exist. The same is true for hypnotism.
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Jul 14, 2017 07:58
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Captain Monkey posted:Yeah, submission to authority is a thing that people do. Falling under hypnosis is not. There wasn't any jury. The lawyer plead out. But why? And why do the six women have no memory of this happening, just the knowledge that something went wrong afterwards? And I do read through the articles. Like I said, I've read a lot about this. And yeah, there's a difference between the trance state and hypnosis, in that one is the end result while the other is the act of guiding someone or one's self into that state.
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Jul 14, 2017 08:19
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If you suck a dick while hypnotized, does it make you gay? Asking for a friend.
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Jul 14, 2017 14:57
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ranbo das posted:If you suck a dick while hypnotized, does it make you gay? Asking for a friend. No. Everybody likes to suck a dick every once in a while.
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Jul 14, 2017 16:29
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Aleph Null posted:No. Everybody likes to suck a dick every once in a while. Sweet, I've got some... uh I mean my friend has some work to do.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:05
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Captain Monkey posted:If you want to be more reasonable, try to write up a definition of hypnosis or hypnotism so that we can discuss it. You're relying on vague terms and linking dozens of articles that seem to sort of, if you just read the title, support you. You aren't making a very good case.
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Jul 14, 2017 20:46
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I'm not sure I want to live in a world where "hypnosis" is real and works well to be honest.
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Jul 14, 2017 21:04
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Aleph Null posted:I'm not sure I want to live in a world where "hypnosis" is real and works well to be honest. I've got some bad news for you buddy
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Jul 14, 2017 21:32
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Aleph Null posted:I'm not sure I want to live in a world where "hypnosis" is real and works well to be honest. You're getting sleepy
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Jul 14, 2017 21:50
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All I know is that I was hypnotized by a shrink when I was ~12 or so. I only remember him starting, then coming out of it and hearing '8, 9, 10'. I remembered nothing of the time in between. So inclined to believe there's something there, and I'll be damned if I know what it is.
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Jul 15, 2017 10:29
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Remulak posted:All I know is that I was hypnotized by a shrink when I was ~12 or so. I only remember him starting, then coming out of it and hearing '8, 9, 10'. I remembered nothing of the time in between. As I understand it that's basically the state of scientific understanding of the phenomenon  It's been demonstrated that hypnosis can induce an altered state of consciousness with measurable, distinctive changes in brainwave patterns, but nobody knows what it actually does.It seems probable that the answer is "not much of anything", though, and at the very least it certainly has little resemblance to popular conceptions of hypnosis. I think "hypnosis isn't real" is a perfectly fair and accurate statement, given how fake the idea of hypnosis as it's commonly portrayed (including by most hypnotists, such as the OP) is.
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Jul 15, 2017 17:45
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I bet someone hypnotized the OP into getting irrationally angry when people say hypnosis is bullshit.
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Jul 15, 2017 18:33
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RCarr posted:I bet someone hypnotized the OP into getting irrationally angry when people say hypnosis is bullshit. It does give me pause when a group of people who usually rely on their own experiences and don't give in to hivemind do the exact opposite with this. I said it in the other thread, give it a try, as the hypnotist- learn the Elman induction, it's fairly easy, and give it a try with someone who's up for it.
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Jul 16, 2017 04:04
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Abugadu posted:I said it in the other thread, give it a try, as the hypnotist- learn the Elman induction, it's fairly easy, and give it a try with someone who's up for it. Been there, done that. Gave it up a few years ago when I realized how embarrassing it was to be a 30-year-old man going "close your eyes and make believe" like the loving Muppet Babies
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Jul 16, 2017 05:15
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Abugadu posted:It does give me pause when a group of people who usually rely on their own experiences and don't give in to hivemind do the exact opposite with this. So thats a no on an actual definition of hypnosis to discuss? I guess keeping the goal posts mobile is necessary in pseudoscience.
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Jul 16, 2017 05:37
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What would your estimate be as to how many people are highly suggestible under hypnosis?Straight White Shark posted:Gave it up a few years ago when I realized how embarrassing it was to be a 30-year-old man going "close your eyes and make believe" like the loving Muppet Babies This is a thread about hypnosis, not about your sex life.
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Jul 16, 2017 06:14
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I don't know if anecdotal bullshit is interesting, but I used to have huge vivid nightmares, and they went away after hypnosis. The nightmares started when I was assaulted by someone I trusted, and they got worse over time. I spent about 18 monthsish in therapy, until the therapist was like "you're basically normal during the daytime, there's nothing I can do about the nightmares." I also tried EMDR with a different therapist, which made it worse (it turns out imagining the bad thing is not good or helpful). When I saw a groupon for a couple sessions of hypnosis, I went for it. I'm anti-woo in general, but I figured I was agnostic enough about hypnotism to give it a shot. I was also totally aware it might work only due to the placebo effect, and I was perfectly fine with that possibility. Whatever the reason, after two sessions, I went from having horrifying realistic nightmares all night every night to having maybe a few shorter, less disturbing ones per month. If you're able to be agnostic about it, I'd say it's worth giving it a shot for similar subconscious issues. I'm definitely way more skeptical about the stage show kind.
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Jul 16, 2017 06:34
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i like nice words
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OP you identify as a sceptic, but are somehow convinced that hypnosis can have effects on real life that are not measurable by the scientific method. Care to elaborate?
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Jul 16, 2017 09:36
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The Amazing Kreskin, a professional stage "hypnotist" for decades, has some great stuff to say about the hypnotism suicide lawsuit settlement. http://www.amazingkreskin.com/amazing-kreskin-says-hypnosis-is-bs/ quote:"If it's possible to cause suicide through hypnosis, should I seriously consider going on satellite television with the attempt to attract viewers who are members of ISIS and then bring about mass suicide of our enemy?" Kreskin said. "The question I suggest is who in the hell had the asinine, imbecilic, stupid, unscientific idea that this had to do with hypnosis?" he added. OP if this poo poo actually works I'd like to expand on Kreskins questions - why has it never been used on television against or for the good of the public, ever? If even a tiny fraction of the population is naturally susceptible and willing that would make a massive difference for humanity.
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Jul 16, 2017 10:08
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Re: definition, I'd say it's an induced bypass of the brain's critical factor. # wise, stage performers throw out 30% as the number for highly susceptible, but they're mixing in the Milgram effect when they work. I'm nowhere near as prolific as they are, but haphazardly will guess 20% just to account for it. IIRC, Kreskin is one of like ~5% of performers who don't believe in what they're doing, but I remember him claiming to have entranced an entire cast of a movie he was in. I really can't make heads or tails of him. But mass-hypnotization is unlikely, as trance doesn't really work like that. The brain doesn't self-harm without a reason.
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Jul 16, 2017 10:58
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Re: politics, some politicians use basic NLP techniques, but I've never seen it go beyond that.
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Jul 16, 2017 11:09
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Scudworth posted:The Amazing Kreskin, a professional stage "hypnotist" for decades, has some great stuff to say about the hypnotism suicide lawsuit settlement. Because if you tried a mass hypnosis and didn't achieve 100% success, you'd get pilloried.
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Jul 16, 2017 12:03
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Abugadu posted:Re: definition, I'd say it's an induced bypass of the brain's critical factor.
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Jul 16, 2017 17:04
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Scudworth posted:The Amazing Kreskin, a professional stage "hypnotist" for decades, has some great stuff to say about the hypnotism suicide lawsuit settlement. I think he's sorta missing the point there. Kenney wasn't actually putting the kids under hypnosis and suggesting that they kill themselves, of course that would be ridiculous. But if you're trained in hypnotherapy then you learn pretty quick that one of the contraindications of hypnotherapy is mental illness. I've seen a few case reports where hypnosis precipitated a manic episode in people with bipolar disorder. Not really a good idea to try putting depressed teens into deep hypnotic states.
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Jul 16, 2017 17:35
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twodot posted:Your realize this isn't a definition right? Like how do you detect if a person's "critical factor" has been "bypassed"? When you test it and confirm that they are following suggestions that make them unable to do something a normally functioning person should be able to do. This could be a number of things- catalepsy of a body part, losing numbers or letters while counting, or having them temporarily forget names, etc That's the point at which you know you have the bypass, and the technique usually switches to a deepening process then.
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Jul 16, 2017 23:23
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Abugadu posted:When you test it and confirm that they are following suggestions that make them unable to do something a normally functioning person should be able to do. Im literally taking a poo poo right now and could do all those things. For the record, this is an un-hypnotized pooping session. Id also like to reiterate my last question, if hypnosis has real life effects, why can't it be scientifically measured?
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Jul 16, 2017 23:47
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