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Thug Lessons posted:I'm actually pretty familiar with Kevin Anderson. I've listened to several of his lectures. I don't have time to listen to this one right now, but
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Jul 17, 2017 00:21
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This isn't new or anything, but I think it's relevant to this particular discussion: https://twitter.com/AlexSteffen/status/884154690933477376 If that Kevin Anderson video is the one I'm thinking of, then I believe he presents something similar to this. The takeaway is that the time horizon for the worst effects of climate change is really irrelevant, because what matters is the carbon budget and how much carbon we can continue to dump into the atmosphere before we've locked ourselves into something that really does start to look apocalyptic. The uncomfortable truth is that not only are we almost out of time, but the more we put off major action the less time we have and the more intense future decarbonization needs to be.
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Jul 17, 2017 01:24
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However, I'll give you two thousand dollars if you let me pull the trigger again.
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Jul 17, 2017 01:26
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Paradoxish posted:
Yeah there needs to be more emphasis put on the point that "emissions" in the way that people discuss them are a derivative of "emitted CO2". Way, WAY too many of these debates are framed around the rate at which we emit rather than the cumulative (area under the curve) amount of CO2 we've pumped into the atmosphere. And as such, the more time we waste, the time we have remaining decreases as a square function rather than a linear one.
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Jul 17, 2017 01:33
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The ongoing response of the European Union to the 2008 recession and the subsequent debt crises demonstrates what we can expect in terms of an international response to climate change. In that case we saw a well established international organization (the EU) demand absolutely ruinous and unsustainable debt loads from its poorest members just to avoid recognizing bad bank debt. The idea that the much less well defined "international community" is going to come together and get the west to finance the large-scale decarbonization of the developing world is outlandish. We couldn't even convince the German state that crippling Greece for a generation wasn't optimal. Semi-Recent European history is also relevant to the stated topic of this thread, in that it's worth thinking about what individuals could have done to prevent WWI. If you were a member of the working or middle class in the early 1900s you could have supported political parties that rejected the alliance system and nationalism/imperialism, and maybe made an effort to convince people in your personal life that the Huns weren't all that bad. There wasn't much you could realistically have done to prevent this huge unstable international system from destroying itself, especially once the crisis was underway. Accretionist posted:Our descendants will probably look back on developing the developing world as naive and suicidal. I think our descendants aren't going to understand a lot about our current society, especially the continued hedonistic excess even as the early signs of climate change became apparent. Above all they're going to really really struggle to understand bitcoin.
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Jul 17, 2017 03:56
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Nocturtle posted:I think our descendants aren't going to understand a lot about our current society, especially the continued hedonistic excess even as the early signs of climate change became apparent. Above all they're going to really really struggle to understand bitcoin. They'll probably understand our current era much the way we understand the Bronze Age Collapse and the Early Medieval Period. That is, very little and colored by centuries of ideology and poorly researched popular fiction.
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Jul 17, 2017 04:02
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Thug Lessons posted:I'm glad a bunch of doomers are just openly admitting their ideology is genocidal and they intend to surf into the Mad Max future on a tidal wave of black corpses. Lol, a few goons wont be the ones committing genocide.
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Jul 17, 2017 04:09
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Ol Standard Retard posted:Yeah there needs to be more emphasis put on the point that "emissions" in the way that people discuss them are a derivative of "emitted CO2". Way, WAY too many of these debates are framed around the rate at which we emit rather than the cumulative (area under the curve) amount of CO2 we've pumped into the atmosphere. Right. I think what's extremely difficult to communicate is that this isn't a crisis where we can feasibly delay action. The worst effects of climate change may be 30-80 years away, but the people who have to live through it won't actually be capable of mitigating the damage that we cause through inaction. If we exceed that 600-800 Gt carbon budget then we're going to +2C (and probably beyond) no matter what anyone does. If we continue to do nothing then we're going much higher. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but focusing on the future effects of climate change makes it seem like this is a problem for the future, when in reality it's a problem that needed to be solved decades ago and that's now an immediate crisis.
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Jul 17, 2017 04:44
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Will climate change erode Western consumer culture, and if so what are some specific things that might ential, eg no more McDonald's, fewer computers, fewer choices at the grocery store, etc?
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Jul 17, 2017 04:44
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Telephones posted:Will climate change erode Western consumer culture, and if so what are some specific things that might ential, eg no more McDonald's, fewer computers, fewer choices at the grocery store, etc? Well in a way the automation of jobs will cause the lower classes in Western society to consume less by virtue of them having no income to spend on consumption.
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Jul 17, 2017 05:06
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Telephones posted:Will climate change erode Western consumer culture, and if so what are some specific things that might ential, eg no more McDonald's, fewer computers, fewer choices at the grocery store, etc? Oh, consumer culture will be alive and kicking for the rest of your natural life. Do not worry about that. There'll high unemployment, permanent economic recession, millions of refugees pouring in hoping for a chance to mooch off hardworking american taxpayer dollars, news blasting 24/7 about tens of millions more across the world dying as their states fail because that's just a normal thing 3rd world countries do... but you can bet your rear end westerners will abide all this while living in perpetual, crippling wageslavery, so long as it means they can get a shiny new phone every year.
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Jul 17, 2017 05:25
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Lol at calling consumerism a 'western ' thing.
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Jul 17, 2017 13:07
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Conspiratiorist posted:They'll probably understand our current era much the way we understand the Bronze Age Collapse and the Early Medieval Period. Nah.
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Jul 17, 2017 13:08
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got any sevens posted:Lol, a few goons wont be the ones committing genocide. Genocide is a game the whole country can play. I'm sure the camps will have room for a few extra guards.
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Jul 17, 2017 13:16
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Telephones posted:Will climate change erode Western consumer culture, and if so what are some specific things that might ential, eg no more McDonald's, fewer computers, fewer choices at the grocery store, etc? Transport will become orders of magnitude more expensive, and global supply chains will start to break down. I don't know about "no more McDonalds" but it won't resemble the company of today. Fewer computers and food choices seem like a given though.
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Jul 17, 2017 14:54
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We'll probably see more vegetarian options when the only way to maintain a dollar menu is having seasoned, fried potato slices in lieu of meat
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Jul 17, 2017 15:26
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Lol at calling consumerism a 'western ' thing. The western thing is conspicuous consumption. The rest of the world is that kid that discovered the weed in his father's closet in the anti-drug commercial. "I learned it from watching you dad!" 
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Jul 17, 2017 15:51
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If incredibly resource-intensive and outrageously priced "vegan" packaged food products die off, I will be a happy person. My roommates girlfriend spends $500/month on groceries because she refuses to eat actual fruits and vegetables to sustain her "veganism".  They don't like it when I point out how they have a vastly higher carbon footprint than my eat-everything rear end.
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Jul 17, 2017 17:44
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syscall girl posted:The Seriously, conspicuous consumption and extravagance is found in every human society. It is simply more noticeable the greater the wealth of a given society is.
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Jul 17, 2017 18:26
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When we talk about "consumption" in the context of climate we are actually talking about a very specific sort of consumptions, mainly energy and fuel consumption but also to lesser extents food and cement consumption, and to an even lesser extent the consumption of regeneration units. It doesn't really do any good to moralize these consumptions. It's just the way the economy operates and not all that different from the way a much more moral economy would operate.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:59
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who's the we in that first sentence? idiots?
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Jul 18, 2017 00:08
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NewForumSoftware posted:who's the we in that first sentence? idiots? You live in a fantasy scenario that endorses genocide.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:16
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Thug Lessons posted:You live in a fantasy scenario that endorses genocide. How can there be global warming when the white raven said its winter. 
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Jul 18, 2017 00:22
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Kopijeger posted:Seriously, conspicuous consumption and extravagance is found in every human society. It is simply more noticeable the greater the wealth of a given society is. Thug Lessons posted:When we talk about "consumption" in the context of climate we are actually talking about a very specific sort of consumptions, mainly energy and fuel consumption but also to lesser extents food and cement consumption, and to an even lesser extent the consumption of regeneration units. It doesn't really do any good to moralize these consumptions. It's just the way the economy operates and not all that different from the way a much more moral economy would operate. Do you guys not know what consumerism is? You take capitalism, and then combine it with industrial mass production, and the result is practices like planned obsolescence and mass advertising to force artificial demand and consume what would otherwise be overproduction. This is, in fact, both a moral issue and a relatively new phenomenon, as we're talking about wholesale indoctrination of society to consume as much as it can exploit.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:24
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Go assassinate heads of energy companies or something if you feel that strongly about individual action. I hear drones are the new thing in asymmetric warfare.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:25
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Conspiratiorist posted:Do you guys not know what consumerism is? You're not wrong, but the impact of what you're talking about is maybe 5% of global emissions, generously. The main problems is that our jobs and quality of life, (genuinely, distinct from mindless consumption of Taco Bell and Netflix), are largely dependent on energy, fuel, food and cement production.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:31
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Arglebargle III posted:Go assassinate heads of energy companies or something if you feel that strongly about individual action. I hear drones are the new thing in asymmetric warfare. Perhaps we can convince Bezos to let us use his robot fleet to leave flaming bags of dog poo poo on the porches of the corporate plutocracy.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:41
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Thug Lessons posted:You're not wrong, but the impact of what you're talking about is maybe 5% of global emissions, generously. The main problems is that our jobs and quality of life, (genuinely, distinct from mindless consumption of Taco Bell and Netflix), are largely dependent on energy, fuel, food and cement production. What the gently caress are you smoking? Consumer goods account for a quarter of industrial production, and as they are one of the very foundations of the whole capitalist edifice, their demand and growth reverberates throughout the structure. Where do these goods go? What do you think the transportation industry is for? Why do you think we use trucks and planes instead of just trains and ships? poo poo, do you understand why economic recessions happen? Because people have less money to buy crap with.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:58
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Conspiratiorist posted:What the gently caress are you smoking? Consumer goods account for a quarter of industrial production, and as they are one of the very foundations of the whole capitalist edifice, their demand and growth reverberates throughout the structure. My point is that most of these things are not mindless consumption. If you look at the most energy-intensive home appliances they're valuable labor-saving devices like washing machines, dryers and refrigerators. Stuff that really meaningfully benefits people's lives by drastically reducing the time, effort and real physiological suffering that replacing doing that labor manually creates. The only real potential moral case is heating and air conditioning, and I don't think it's a very good one. The other main household factor is transportation, which obviously plays a huge economic role. The effect of completely useless meaningless consumption of artisinal lobster and gold-plated toilets makes up a small part of the energy economy because few are able to afford it and less take advantage of it.
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Jul 18, 2017 01:20
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Thug Lessons posted:My point is that most of these things are not mindless consumption. If you look at the most energy-intensive home appliances they're valuable labor-saving devices like washing machines, dryers and refrigerators. Stuff that really meaningfully benefits people's lives by drastically reducing the time, effort and real physiological suffering that replacing doing that labor manually creates. The only real potential moral case is heating and air conditioning, and I don't think it's a very good one. The other main household factor is transportation, which obviously plays a huge economic role. The effect of completely useless meaningless consumption of artisinal lobster and gold-plated toilets makes up a small part of the energy economy because few are able to afford it and less take advantage of it. Oh, okay. Thanks for confirming you have no loving idea what the topic of conversation even is, when as an example of mass produced goods you're giving artisanal lobsters.
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Jul 18, 2017 01:27
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Give me a 20 year old Nokia 4EVRBrik or give me death!
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Jul 18, 2017 01:56
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I honestly feel sorry for you thug lessons. How have you been on these forums for so long and still haven't learned such basic and well understood concepts... 
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Jul 18, 2017 02:13
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Thug Lessons posted:When we talk about "consumption" in the context of climate we are actually talking about a very specific sort of consumptions, mainly energy and fuel consumption but also to lesser extents food and cement consumption, and to an even lesser extent the consumption of regeneration units. It doesn't really do any good to moralize these consumptions. It's just the way the economy operates and not all that different from the way a much more moral economy would operate. This part of your post makes no sense. All forms of consumption ultimately break down into energy demand, which is the whole point. I'm going to assume that by "energy" consumption here you actually mean electricity, but even then this doesn't make a whole lot of sense since the primary energy inputs for almost all forms of consumption are electricity and fuel for transportation. I'm also not sure what you mean by moralizing consumption, but it's a fact that demand for energy needs to come down if we're going to have any hope at all of staying within carbon budgets. Developed nations need to mostly decarbonize within a couple of decades just to limit the damage to +2C and that's an impossible target to hit from the supply side alone.
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Jul 18, 2017 02:50
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A68 is now a thing, and it's the size of Hawai'i.
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Jul 18, 2017 04:28
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Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
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Jul 18, 2017 04:30
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Future citizens of earth Allow us forgiveness Realize our sins could have been yours Time was not on our side
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Jul 18, 2017 04:57
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Perhaps we should have been more careful Of our noxious emissions Or our wasteful consumerism Perhaps poor people shouldn't have been so poor
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Jul 18, 2017 04:57
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I think climate change is going to force americans to eat bugs and when americans have to eat bugs something will be done.
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Jul 18, 2017 08:08
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Telephones posted:I think climate change is going to force americans to eat bugs and when americans have to eat bugs something will be done. I've had some pretty tasty bug products recently. If we replace the TVP in Taco Bell meat with Texturized Insect Protein I don't think people will honestly care if the price is cheaper.
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Jul 18, 2017 08:12
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Full Bugmeat Now.
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Jul 18, 2017 09:15
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