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LeafHouse posted:OP, if hypnotizing ladies into tickling the clam for you is a real thing then why do you think there aren't there cases of it happening more often? I'm guessing the main reason this case seems remarkable is because there are no similar cases. I mean if some guys are so desperate they will pay thousands for a washed up magician to teach them how to insult women into banging them surely there would be as many trying to hypnose their way into some action. Pickup artists do incorporate a mind-influencing power in their weird worldview but they call it neuro-linguistic programming because that almost sounds like a real thing OP the way you're haphazardly throwing out studies from the 60s, 70s, and 80s that you don't even have access to, based on their abstracts, shows that you're scrambling to find support for a belief in hypnosis you already have. And even if they're true all it means is that you can talk someone into changing their skin surface temperature. I mean, I don't really care if hypnosis is real or not because it won't impact my life either way but if you wanna convince people it's real you have to give a better indication that your belief in it is based on evidence and not personal experience. If you don't wanna convince people it's real then post about this topic somewhere where skeptical people won't jump down your throat about it dude. Casey Finnigan fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 20:47
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Abugadu posted:When you test it and confirm that they are following suggestions that make them unable to do something a normally functioning person should be able to do.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:52
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Past life regression is a combination of wishful thinking and guided imagery. Guided imagery can be therapeutic but it doesn't really tap into ancient memories. Edit: they say it better. http://skepdic.com/pastlife.html
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Jul 17, 2017 21:11
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Aleph Null posted:Past life regression is a combination of wishful thinking and guided imagery. Well I dunno though because I saw a psychic a year ago and she explained that 200 years ago in a past life I was a really chill dude. That really explained a lot and I'd never met her before so I don't know how she could've known.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:51
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So like I said, hallucinations!
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Jul 18, 2017 00:04
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Say what you will about recovering 'repressed memories' or 'past life engrams' being bullshit - you have to give hypnosis credit as a powerful tool for implanting false memories and convicing people they're real.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:56
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Tunicate posted:Say what you will about recovering 'repressed memories' or 'past life engrams' being bullshit - you have to give hypnosis credit as a powerful tool for implanting false memories and convicing people they're real. Sure, but again, not actually a unique property of hypnosis.
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Jul 18, 2017 01:32
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Tunicate posted:Say what you will about recovering 'repressed memories' or 'past life engrams' being bullshit - you have to give hypnosis credit as a powerful tool for implanting false memories and convicing people they're real. Not just false memories, but also false belief systems, false physical signals from their own bodies. I'm trying to make the point that this isn't snake oil, and it has potential negative effects if used improperly. There's potential positive effects too, I believe it to be a great therapeutical tool, and at some point I'd like to discuss that, but I'm stuck with differentiating this with phrenology at the moment. This whole thread spawned from a thread where I was pointing out how this can get abused, and escape detection. The Fine case is really the only instance we have of someone being caught red-handed, on video, with multiple victims to corroborate, where the cops didn't dismiss the entire thing out of hand ab initio, although it took several attempts to get them to move on it. LeafHouse posted:OP, if hypnotizing ladies into tickling the clam for you is a real thing then why do you think there aren't there cases of it happening more often? I'm guessing the main reason this case seems remarkable is because there are no similar cases. I mean if some guys are so desperate they will pay thousands for a washed up magician to teach them how to insult women into banging them surely there would be as many trying to hypnose their way into some action. There are hundreds of books on the subject, looking at Amazon. Like someone else said though, NLP and POA poo poo like negging are more popular. Hypnosis doesn't fit for these situations because dropping someone into trance at a bar would usually be extremely noticeable, and even just the attempt would creep out most women. You're not going to get 15-20 minutes to yourselves with no one watching in most social situations. There's instant inductions, but again, highly visible and noticeable when someone appears to go unconscious. There's also the possibility that it does happen, but those people are more successful in covering their tracks. Fine was not good at that. That drat Satyr posted:How does the practice of things like 'past life regression' and the like figure into hypnosis? It's implanting false memories. The same reason hypnosis got banned from being used in police interrogations. If I get someone under and suggest they were Marie Antoinette and draw some vague parallels between their lives and then finish it with a declarative position, it'll probably lodge itself in there. There's also 'age regression', usually used in therapeutical settings, accessing memories from childhood, which also has to be delicately managed, as it's where most of your abreactions are going to occur, and there's also the additional possibility of false memory implantation if the hypnotist is too active. Casey Finnigan posted:Pickup artists do incorporate a mind-influencing power in their weird worldview but they call it neuro-linguistic programming because that almost sounds like a real thing I've thrown out studies from Stanford Medical School published last year. It takes literally zero effort to find recent studies. https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/23/4/801/343536/Boosting-Human-Learning-by-Hypnosis?searchresult=1 But I've been on SomethingAwful for 13 years. I know I'm not going to get someone to post 'well holy poo poo you sure convinced me with that link to that scientific study' because the nature of the internet is such that two people argue for awhile and then get nowhere. Or worse, argue the same side of the issue without realizing it. That's why I'm encouraging actually trying it, because I don't think anyone will be convinced by my anecdotes, scientific studies, or legal cases. There's tons of material available to learn this stuff for free. It can be amazingly fun, and perplexing. It's still in its infancy. And up until now I've resisted the whole 'well you actually need a friend and to leave the house' dig to those that aren't willing to do it, but seriously, you should try it. Some skits I've done - some stolen from stage shows, some modified from ideas from books, some invented: frozen someone's hand to their leg, then bet them my phone that they couldn't move their hand and grab it. Having someone unconsciously adding a 'what WHAT?' at the end of their sentences. Having someone answer every question with a lie, but with each lie their pants get tighter and tighter. Having someone convinced their name was Britney Speers, spelled slightly differently than the celebrity, and that they've gone through life having to deal with people making fun of them, and then showing them their driver's license to see what the reaction was. Mind reading, where you ask them something that only they would know, i.e. first grade teacher or school, then suggest amnesia that they told you, then surprise them with your ability to pull the answer to an impossible question out of thin air. Foreign accents are always good, though when doing it with someone who spoke the same language that I suggested an accent for, they attempted to translate the words back and forth before speaking, which caused a large delay. Physical challenge, where I had someone out of hypnosis do a plank position for as long as they could, then the next day had them under and did a freeze command, and they crushed their old time. Had someone get drunk off of three sips of water, which was suggested to be incredibly potent alcohol. Got someone to start to tell a joke and then completely forget the punchline halfway through. Got anesthesia on an arm from elbow to fingertips. Did a post-hypnotic suggestion where when I said a trigger word they would need to use the bathroom, get halfway there, then realize exactly what had happened. Voodoo doll, where the person feels on their body where I contact a doll they can see. Helium beer can, where they're holding on to a can and it becomes lighter and lighter until it pulls them up and starts dragging them around the room. One where the person next to them smells incredibly good, and they can't stop sniffing. Thick tongue, where it swells up in their mouth and they have trouble talking. One where the person was convinced they were the Easter Bunny, and had to explain where eggs came from. And then negative hallucination, where I made myself invisible to them. And the skits are the fun stuff for the observers and the participants, but the inductions are the more amazing part to me. Ranging from showy instant inductions like Zap or the Cerbone Butterfly Induction or the hand drop or spinning arms, to the stereotypical 'focus on the watch', handshake inductions, to the Thain arm freeze, to Jacquin's power lift, to Sean Michael Andrews' analytical induction, and the old standby Elman induction - they're super entertaining to me, which ones work and how, and at what point someone progresses. There's one I saw I've recreated, can't find the youtube video, but it's from a training where people are practicing instant inductions, and one of them implants a suggestion that the other guy will fall into hypnosis whenever he tries to conduct the hand drop induction - so you have someone trying very hard and being very serious to be the hypnotist, and when he shouts 'sleep' he drops down and you get an audible thunk from his head hitting the desk. I'm fine still fielding questions from the skeptic crowd, but would also like the opportunity to talk about the mechanics of it, how the skits work, or how therapy is designed to work.
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Jul 18, 2017 02:26
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Do you ever do autohypnosis? Trying to make yourself suggestable to yourself, as it were? Even if it's the Placebo effect, it still seems like it would be handy.
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Jul 18, 2017 02:54
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Rockopolis posted:Do you ever do autohypnosis? Trying to make yourself suggestable to yourself, as it were? Tried and failed. I haven't put a ton of time into it, though there are one or two scripts I've considered putting together, but four or five things going on simultaneously in my personal life have severely limited my time, the biggest being moving into a new house this last weekend. But I'll give it another shot sometime this year, I've already thought out the frame of the session.
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Jul 18, 2017 05:10
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 Can this be placed in an hypnotic state?
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Jul 18, 2017 05:38
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Abugadu posted:Please try to keep threadshitting to a simple registration of your 'I don't believe in thing' opinion.
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Jul 18, 2017 05:45
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Just a gag. I think there is something to what you call hypnosis. I think it's related to meditation states.
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Jul 18, 2017 05:58
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Please post an actual usual definition of what hypnosis even means. Like one that enables me to predict whether someone could use hypnosis to kidnap other people.
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Jul 18, 2017 06:08
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Just a gag. I think there is something to what you call hypnosis. I think it's related to meditation states. Honestly, if you ask five different professional hypnotists what hypnosis is, you get five slightly different answers. Or four slightly different answers and one radically different answer. But, either way, it's tough to pin down the exact 'what' of what happens - we have a lot of data regarding the input, we have a lot of data regarding the response, but the actual processing of the brain is still a nascent science, comparatively. One of the earliest hypnotists, Mesmer, thought it was magnetism that was doing the heavy lifting, until, of all people, Benjamin Franklin personally showed up and proved him wrong. One of the latest trends is to link it to REM sleep, given the brain activity, the seemingly conscious behavior, and the eye movement. Part of the fun of this for me is seeing what works and what doesn't. A couple of people I work with have allowed me to try different things - so I have one person who, due to post-hypnotic suggestion, is completely unaware that they wink at me whenever I call them a nickname, three months after having suggested it. I've only worked sporadically with amnesia suggestions, but my experiences, combined with looking at case studies like Fine and Project Bluebird, seem to indicate that the brain retains the information in a sort of lockbox that it is unable or unwilling to access until whatever cue-key is given to cause recall. I understand the heavy parallels to meditation states, or mutual fantasy, or placebo effects, but I just see slightly more to it than that, I guess.
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Jul 18, 2017 06:12
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Abugadu posted:Honestly, if you ask five different professional hypnotists what hypnosis is, you get five slightly different answers.
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Jul 18, 2017 06:13
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twodot posted:Please post an actual usual definition of what hypnosis even means. Like one that enables me to predict whether someone could use hypnosis to kidnap other people. The usual definition is that it's an inducement of a bypass of the critical factor, meaning someone has caused you to stop using the part of your brain that examines incoming statements or commands and subjects them to heavy scrutiny based on your past experiences. Using hypnosis maliciously would require initially gaining someone's trust - it happens, often in online communities where people are just starting to explore this stuff. I think the frightening thing about the kidnapping hypothesis is that if you had a skilled enough practitioner with the time and the initial trust of the victim, it wouldn't seem to anyone else like a kidnapping had taken place. The 'guardian angel' part of the brain that fights suggestions that go against someone's morals/ethics is a short-sighted gatekeeper; like, if the hypnotist said 'and now you're going to ditch all your family and friends and live with me and enjoy it' without any prior setup, the victim would probably balk. But it's that whole 'boiling a frog one degree at a time' concept that seems to sneak past it. Fine, with his victims, didn't jump to 'ok start masturbating' immediately, he was doing a long lead up - A leads to B, B leads to C, C leads to D, pushing it a little at a time until the brain is like 'well we're already at P, Q isn't much farther than that, why not'. So instant kidnapping? Probably not. Kidnapping via grooming, using hypnosis as a tool, over a period of time? I think possible. I hate to dredge up cults with this, and I haven't done extensive research into the secondary materials, but Scientology's early level materials resemble low-grade hypnotic inductions, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was designed with that in mind.
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Jul 18, 2017 06:29
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twodot posted:This seems like a real problem for someone who thinks hypnosis is real. Like if you asked five doctors what eating is, I don't think we'd get five different answers. The digestive system is pretty straight forward compared to the brain. I feel like it's the blind men with the elephant situation, but we have a lot more data to work with to get a slightly more accurate answer. And, up until ~1950, this was a fairly dead realm of study, comparatively.
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Jul 18, 2017 06:34
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twodot posted:This seems like a real problem for someone who thinks hypnosis is real. Like if you asked five doctors what eating is, I don't think we'd get five different answers. Brain poo poo is admittedly more complicated. If you ask five neuroscientists why people need to sleep, the only common answer is gonna be 'because people get sleepy'.
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Jul 18, 2017 08:51
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Abugadu posted:The usual definition is that it's an inducement of a bypass of the critical factor, meaning someone has caused you to stop using the part of your brain that examines incoming statements or commands and subjects them to heavy scrutiny based on your past experiences. quote:Using hypnosis maliciously would require initially gaining someone's trust quote:But it's that whole 'boiling a frog one degree at a time' concept that seems to sneak past it. Fine, with his victims, didn't jump to 'ok start masturbating' immediately, he was doing a long lead up - A leads to B, B leads to C, C leads to D, pushing it a little at a time until the brain is like 'well we're already at P, Q isn't much farther than that, why not'. Abugadu posted:The digestive system is pretty straight forward compared to the brain. I feel like it's the blind men with the elephant situation, but we have a lot more data to work with to get a slightly more accurate answer. And, up until ~1950, this was a fairly dead realm of study, comparatively. Tunicate posted:Brain poo poo is admittedly more complicated. If you ask five neuroscientists why people need to sleep, the only common answer is gonna be 'because people get sleepy'.
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Jul 18, 2017 16:25
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No dude, you don't get it. You just have to do it, and you'll FEEL my evidence
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Jul 18, 2017 18:37
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So you say there are tons of video resources etc out there, and that's partially how you learned this... Whatever it is. Mind compiling a list of a few that you consider to be good and/or legitimate that discuss the process of technique? I just had a browse of YouTube and most of what I found we're demonstrations with absolutely no explanation.
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Jul 18, 2017 20:32
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I'm reminded of a time when I was a teenager and I was with some friends. We broke into an abandoned church and held a séance. Everybody was like, "wow, I can feel the spirits" except me. I was just "nope, don't feel a thing; wish I did, but I don't." Our group included a girl who said she could read thoughts as words floating around peoples' heads and drank blood on the reg, so... I thought I was the broken one for years.
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Jul 18, 2017 22:30
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Aleph Null posted:I'm reminded of a time when I was a teenager and I was with some friends. We broke into an abandoned church and held a séance. Everybody was like, "wow, I can feel the spirits" except me. I was just "nope, don't feel a thing; wish I did, but I don't." I had a friend that was HECKA into ouija boards when I was in highschool, and rather tragically she wanted to use it after 9/11 to try and talk to the people that were killed. Because I was a 15 year old rear end in a top hat I pushed the planchette around and really had her going for quite a long time. That was pretty much my first realization that anything occult was pretty bogus. People are weird. But I still find it fun to learn about things people believe!
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Jul 18, 2017 22:43
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That drat Satyr posted:So you say there are tons of video resources etc out there, and that's partially how you learned this... Whatever it is. Anthony Jacquin's Head Hacking videos are good at demonstrating the more physical inductions, handshake and rehearsal, and he does a step by step explanation of what he's doing while he's doing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x85prwKYgOQ&list=PLLOptAK72kDrJAOkMD-sNKBTfYs0WNot5 James Tripp goes into the mechanics of the responses very well, especially with instant inductions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2-do9b5Tdk&t=43s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVp8wbR5WSg Igor Ledochowski is another instructor who goes over the fine details of things, especially re: balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykrYSMXUWcg Mike Mandel demonstrates the Elman Induction with some helpful subtitling to tell you what's going on when: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5rXsq3ZL9o Similar to the above, but with demonstration of further phenomena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kHVAu2t0zo Nongard discussing Ericksonian language and confusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asHcvupWw1Q Jonathan Chase with a demo then explanation of an eye-lock induction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjD8VOXDxiQ And Chase on catalepsy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDCo_JZjoA
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Jul 19, 2017 02:36
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Abugadu posted:
Because i'm a masochist, i clicked one of the links. Only to be greeted by "Dr." Mike Mandel, 6 minutes of listening convinced me this man cant possibly be a doctor based on some of the buzzwords he used. My favorite was somnambulism: it's a medical thing, part of sleep disorders colloquially known as sleep walking. While not my specialty i can confirm it looks nothing like hypnosis. Moreover, it has nothing to do with "total physical relaxation", that kinda makes the walking part hard. Finally, if she was totally physically relaxed, she wouldn't just have a head that moves when you push it, she would have fallen out of her chair. You see this kind of total physical and mental relaxation when someone faints and it's hard to fake. Lo and behold: his biography (http://mikemandelhypnosis.com/about/) never mentions where he got a phd, but the site does illustratie what a true renaissance man our dear Canadian Dr. is. quote:Mike Mandel is also considered the world’s foremost expert on the unique martial art of British Jiu Jitsu. Do not fear however: as the 5th hit on google for Mike strikes gold: People Who Have Fake Doctorates: "Dr." Mike Mandel. Probably the only time a blog is the more believable source http://fakedoctorate.blogspot.nl/2012/08/dr-mike-mandel-hypnofake-of-toronto-ca.html IAMNOTADOCTOR fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 12:32
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I love how the OP can't come up with a single decent, easily-explainable scientific study in three pages, but the instant someone gives him an inch he posts a half page of Youtube links to his favorite hypnosis lectures.
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Jul 19, 2017 18:01
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That whole website could be seen as a damning take-down of Hypnosis in general.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:54
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Eh, degrees don't really mean much for this stuff, other than actually being a psychiatrist or psychologist. All the other certifications are basically 'pay money watch video get paper'.
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Jul 20, 2017 01:01
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Abugadu posted:Eh, degrees don't really mean much for this stuff, other than actually being a psychiatrist or psychologist. All the other certifications are basically 'pay money watch video get paper'.
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Jul 20, 2017 15:52
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Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but is hypnosis really so difficult to define? It's an artifically induced dissociative state; it's not all that different from what one sees in certain forms of mental illness. Conscious awareness and memory get somewhat scrambled, and it brings with it increased suggestability. The fact that it's artificial doesn't mean that it does not exist - by that logic, one could argue that canals do not exist, because there are rivers. Nineteenth century psychologists weren't completely off-base in using it to investigate mental illness - what they were doing was recreating in a controlled setting the mental states that their patients would fall into when they found themselves in stressful situations (and the psychologists, even then, knew this - it was the stage performers made much bolder claims to mystical power). One can use it to treat some mental pathologies (those where a tendency to dissociation is already present), but its application is really pretty limited - at best, one can use hypnotic suggestion to make a patient's symptoms disappear for a time, but they do inevitably come back. It was largely abandoned precisely for that reason - it's a way of treating the symptom, not the disease, and of very limited practical utility if what you want is a treatment with lasting beneficial effects. Numerical Anxiety fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 06:23
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twodot posted:You don't think the hypnosis industry being filled with people who charge money for fake degrees, and then use fake degrees to call themselves a doctor, isn't problematic for your claims regarding hypnosis? Are ypu saying someone would... lie? To make money?! But that would mean Abugado is a sucker! Abugado doesn't think he's a sucker! It must all be true instead! Watch these 70 youtube links of a guy wearing swirly eyed glasses selling a book!
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Jul 22, 2017 04:22
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but is hypnosis really so difficult to define? It's an artifically induced dissociative state; it's not all that different from what one sees in certain forms of mental illness. Conscious awareness and memory get somewhat scrambled, and it brings with it increased suggestability. The fact that it's artificial doesn't mean that it does not exist - by that logic, one could argue that canals do not exist, because there are rivers. The problem is twofold: 1) Multiple, distinct states get lumped together under the heading of "hypnosis", and 2) None of the states described as hypnosis are that different than normal mental function. So, yeah, there is a big vague something happening. But mostly the actual hypnotic state is small potatoes; most of the work is placebo effect, reinforced by whatever the vague something is. It feels like the hypnotist is doing something, which makes it much easier to believe that they're doing a lot more than they actually are.
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Jul 22, 2017 05:29
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Straight White Shark posted:The problem is twofold: Well, yes, but you could say the same thing about just about every diagnostic category used by psychologists that isn't based on neurological impairment. Personality disorders, for example, are general rubrics rather than precise descriptions, and also don't demonstrate particularly abnormal brain function. If you want to dismiss them out of hand, okay, I guess, but it means throwing out a useful means of orienting a treatment. One day, probably, the science will allow for more precise approaches, but right now, psychological categories are pretty much all of that sort - it'd be a poor pragmatic decision to reflexively throw them out, I think.
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Jul 22, 2017 07:01
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Yeah diagnosing a lot of poo poo is difficult - basically if I were to try to actually test a 'hypnotic' state, I'd have to start by doing the same types of tests as are currently done in concussion research, with the same sorts of controls for people faking in either direction (the US military is spending a lot of money on that ATM, particularly to try to get malingering-proof tests).
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Jul 22, 2017 07:40
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is this thread serious op are you serious lol
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Jul 22, 2017 11:29
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Hypnosis or not. A ruling in a court case is not rigorous scientific evidence of hypnosis.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:46
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All entertainment hypnosis is faker than gently caress. Its well proven and documented. People that believe its real are misinformed, people that "do" it and think its real are loving retarded.
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Jul 26, 2017 00:15
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Abugadu posted:Every single one of them can't remember what happened. Not bizarre in the least? The problem with this is, we can't be fully sure if that's actually true. What if they all lied? Suddenly, the entire argument falls apart. In fact, it could very well be that they were hypnotized and then too embarrassed to confess that they were going along with this (since hypnotism can't actually force you to do anything against your will). Anyway, the "they were hypnotized, therefore they were sluts"-argument is also false. Just because those women weren't, like Super-Catholics with weird sexual hang-ups , doesn't mean hypnotizing them for sexual reasons is OK without their consent. Obviously, those women didn't consent to getting hypno-sexed, so it's still a crime only the scum of the earth would do. Though what most likely happened: The women went along with it out of fear, and then were to embarrassed to explain what actually happened, so they decided to "not remember" the sexual assault. It's the most direct and logical explanation I can come up with, using the info the OP has supplied.
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Jul 30, 2017 20:31
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Why are you addressing this as if it has merit? I could claim they were victims of a sex demon ritual performed by the doctor, or an alien mind ray wiped their memories and make as much sense as someone claiming this guy used magic hypnosis to get sex.
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Jul 30, 2017 22:55
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