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just play if u want to or don't who cares
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Jul 19, 2017 20:00
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TFRazorsaw posted:I'm not trying to diminish their accomplishments or say it's impossible. People with disabilities aren't interchangeable. It's fine, I think we all understand your point. There's some good discussion to be had about accessibility in fighting games but I think people are snappy because we've had those discussions before. After a while all we can say is "you have to put some effort in and it kinda sucks stuff is obscured, but it is what it is even if the games were better about tutorializing/simplifying concepts". It's really not that hard to become better than the average scrub at fighting games if you legit try, but not everyone enjoys that process and that's fine too. The only way you'll find out if you do is by playing.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:03
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TFRazorsaw posted:I see your point. But I would like to stress one thing - I've never felt like I've had all the answers, and my frustration comes from the fact that many of these games feel designed in a way that makes getting there feel like it's more difficult than it should be. People definitely have different learning styles, and the ways that fighting game designers expected people to learn poo poo before may not have been for you. I know they weren't for me, and it's actually much easier in this era with tons of YouTube guides for every game. Even just being able to watch commentated high-level play is a great learning aid. Like, there are definitely a bunch of people who say "Just keep playing and you'll learn" when that is only part of the story. As a kid I played dozens or even hundreds of hours of fighting games, including SFII, MK4, and Soul Edge and SoulCalibur. I don't think I learned very much from those because I learn better with a very structured plan, and just randomly fighting with friends isn't very structured. I remember playing with a friend who would do nothing but spam teleport punch as Scorpion, and I never learned how to deal with that. Like, literally never, one session involved him doing nothing but that for fifteen games and I lost every time. But with Injustice 2, I watched a video guide for Supergirl (who has the same move) and I learned the properties of that move and because I understood how other mechanics of the game worked, I can reasonably deal with it now. Another example, maybe back then I implicitly picked up the concept of frame advantage, but it wasn't until I read someone explicitly explain it that I could internalize that as an aspect of the match and think tactically about how different move choices would play into that. Speaking of which, if you learn better from reading things, I found this guide really helpful: From Masher to Master: The Educated Video Game Enthusiast’s Fighting Game Primer. It lays out the basics of fighting game theory that apply to almost every game in the genre
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Jul 19, 2017 20:04
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Don't worry about accessibility. If you find a game that is fun you will want to play and learn it, regardless of how "accessible" it is.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:13
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Jmcrofts posted:I posted this in another thread already but here: I actually agree w/ this, people worry more than they should about what the Best First Game is, and it doesn't really matter as long as you don't puss out when you find out you're bad at fgs.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:16
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Intel&Sebastian posted:The solution here is to actively seek out people who are just as "bad" at the game as you and playing against them a lot. The online mode of any actually populated fighting game is a fuuuuuucking shark tank no matter where you go and makes even people without autism feel like they're terrible at the game. That happens in literally every pvp fighter I've ever played online and off no matter how simple it is (hi divekick). You guys have any suggestions of how to do this? In Guilty Gear I'm getting kinda bored playing against the CPU at max settings and only know one other guy who's really into FGs, so I'd love to play some games against goons of all skill levels.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:19
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Like, there are definitely a bunch of people who say "Just keep playing and you'll learn" when that is only part of the story. As a kid I played dozens or even hundreds of hours of fighting games, including SFII, MK4, and Soul Edge and SoulCalibur. I don't think I learned very much from those because I learn better with a very structured plan, and just randomly fighting with friends isn't very structured. I remember playing with a friend who would do nothing but spam teleport punch as Scorpion, and I never learned how to deal with that. Like, literally never, one session involved him doing nothing but that for fifteen games and I lost every time. But with Injustice 2, I watched a video guide for Supergirl (who has the same move) and I learned the properties of that move and because I understood how other mechanics of the game worked, I can reasonably deal with it now. Another example, maybe back then I implicitly picked up the concept of frame advantage, but it wasn't until I read someone explicitly explain it that I could internalize that as an aspect of the match and think tactically about how different move choices would play into that. This 'keep playing and you'll learn' gets to be a very hard mentality to break. I have a friend who as of right now has 2,718 hours in Dota 2. If you ask him he''d tell you he's very, very good at Dota 2 because he's played so much. His MMR is around 450 or something. That's like...bottom 1% of all people ever bad. Like, set one of those drinking birds on your keyboard and it would be about the same level of play bad. Practicing something a bunch, but practicing it wrong at best doesn't help and at worst reinforces bad habits.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:23
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Spanish Manlove posted:You guys have any suggestions of how to do this? In Guilty Gear I'm getting kinda bored playing against the CPU at max settings and only know one other guy who's really into FGs, so I'd love to play some games against goons of all skill levels.  Join the goon Discord https://discordapp.com/invite/0wBmC7rtxZPBgPkW
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Jul 19, 2017 20:24
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GG players in Discord range from "okay" to being Bears who just barely missed placing top 8 at Evo this year. Even if someone is better than you, they will be way more helpful than fighting some rando in Ranked would be.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:26
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punk rebel ecks posted:Don't worry about accessibility. If you find a game that is fun you will want to play and learn it, regardless of how "accessible" it is. Its this.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:47
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Saint Freak posted:This 'keep playing and you'll learn' gets to be a very hard mentality to break. I have a friend who as of right now has 2,718 hours in Dota 2. If you ask him he''d tell you he's very, very good at Dota 2 because he's played so much. It's possible to play a ton without getting good, but you cannot get good without playing a ton.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:54
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Jul 19, 2017 20:59
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I'm not sure smash is a good example of a game that is easy to get into.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:59
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its easy to get into if you play it the way god intended, as a four player party game with random stage select and items
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Jul 19, 2017 21:19
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Smash Bros is a children's game, of course it's easy to get into!
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Jul 19, 2017 21:21
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I used to work at an office where we would all play Fusion Frenzy on an xbox during our lunch break and after a few years it got extremely competitive and we started creating strategies and counter strategies and counter counter strategies that I doubt the devs ever intended. For a short while there I totally understood the Smash mindset.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:27
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The most fundamental thing to learn when you start playing any of the Smash games is probably how to attack safely while moving. When you start out you probably end up doing a lot of dash attacks and raw smash attacks and then you figure out how to use tilts and aerials and you get to your movement and then begin your descent down the rabbit hole.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:41
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Same
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Jul 19, 2017 21:48
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Reiley posted:The most fundamental thing to learn when you start playing any of the Smash games is probably how to attack safely while moving. When you start out you probably end up doing a lot of dash attacks and raw smash attacks and then you figure out how to use tilts and aerials and you get to your movement and then begin your descent down the rabbit hole. Yeah, not using tilts is like playing Street Fighter and never hitting the medium punch/kick buttons. Smash is weird in that instead of three buttons for light/medium/heavy it's all one button but what you're doing with the control stick determines the speed/strength of the attack, which is demonstrated the most literally with Ryu being in Smash 4 and his light/medium/heavy normals in SF are more or less his neutral/tilt/smash attacks.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:48
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Xad posted:Yeah, not using tilts is like playing Street Fighter and never hitting the medium punch/kick buttons. Smash is weird in that instead of three buttons for light/medium/heavy it's all one button but what you're doing with the control stick determines the speed/strength of the attack, which is demonstrated the most literally with Ryu being in Smash 4 and his light/medium/heavy normals in SF are more or less his neutral/tilt/smash attacks. Ryu actually has two levels of tilt depending on whether you tap & release the attack button or hold it beyond a threshold, and that's where his light/medium attacks come from. Like low short/forward are both dtilt and which one you get is determined by when you let go of the button. Smash attacks happen when you input a direction and attack at nearly the same time but you can work around this by rolling the stick into position (i.e. 896A for ftilt), keeping the stick tilted in a non-gate touching position (hence the name "tilts") or buffering the stick position change inside another action like a fastfall aerial to get around accidentally inputting a smash attack, which are generally not safe on block.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:54
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Reiley posted:Ryu actually has two levels of tilt depending on whether you tap & release the attack button or hold it beyond a threshold, and that's where his light/medium attacks come from. Like low short/forward are both dtilt and which one you get is determined by when you let go of the button. Smash attacks happen when you input a direction and attack at nearly the same time but you can work around this by rolling the stick into position (i.e. 896A for ftilt), keeping the stick tilted in a non-gate touching position (hence the name "tilts") or buffering the stick position change inside another action like a fastfall aerial to get around accidentally inputting a smash attack, which are generally not safe on block. How do smash people do Ryu's notations in Smash 4 since its all analog input.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:57
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In Training posted:How do smash people do Ryu's notations in Smash 4 since its all analog input. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu "True" means you do the inputs i.e. "true shoryuken", which you generally never don't do. vvv Defense is a commitment in Smash, it isn't the default you assume when you're not pressing a button or walking forward. There's a minimum 18 frame duration when you press shield before you can act again and you can only use moves you can jumpcancel (i.e. only specials or aerials) out of shield, which have between 4 and 7 jumpsquat frames added onto the front of them before they come out. If you block an attack in a three-frame window you can instant block and act immediately, but otherwise shield drop is seven frames and each attack has its own amount of blockstun (attacks with electric property do 150% blockstun), which if its lower than shield drop will free you sooner, so if you want to block and then attack with a tilt or a smash attack you need to account for your shield drop frames, which if baited someone can easily punish with a dash grab. If you demonstrate a shield habit you can get punished for it very hard. Reiley fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 22:02
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the thing about smash is that defensive options in the game are loving oppressive, but most of them are also extremely non-obvious. Once someone does figure out how to use their spot dodges, or the big one, shield grab, the way people have to approach offense has to grow past the immediately obvious for offense to work AT ALL. but most people never evolve past trying to roll dodge behind the other player.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:02
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I think we're also running into a semantic problem of what it is to 'learn' a game or feel fluent at it. Some games are such that at a basic level, you can feel Feeling like they are 'getting good' at a game, like executing the moves, etc (ie, what CApcom's design desicisons around SFIV input leniency was trying to achieve, letting people feel like they're playing 'the real game' and throwing fireballs, etc) But there's a wide gulf between that and playing at a remotely competitive level. MvC2 is a game where if you are playing with also-new friends, you can really quickly be going all kinds of cool looking poo poo. I'm guessing (as someone who only played it casually when it was NEW on the gamecube) Smash also manages this, where people feel like they've 'learned' it. But in both of these, you're not even 1% of the way to competitive play, if that game has a remotely competitive scene. Most of these games have a high enough skill ceiling that after a few months, you'd be able to utterly destroy a new player without even trying, but playing against the 'best' players for that game would probably brutalize you at LEAST that badly.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:16
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depending on the game and how poo poo its netcode and matchmaking is, I'd wager you could split it up into various categories: when they can beat the single player content when they can beat friends / casual locals when they can beat people they get matched up against online while I think guilty gear has done a really nice job with its tutorials and challenges I think its failings are that it provides access to all of them at once a layperson quickly gets overwhelmed by the advanced tutorials or the harder challenges cause the game sets the expectation that this is all day 1~7 stuff when it's more like day 100 or more dragon enthusiast fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 22:43
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Which of these games is the best? I'm late to this but the correct answer is KOF98... ...but I love KOF99 more.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:48
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Commissar Ken posted:I'm late to this but the correct answer is KOF98... 99 has the best soundtrack, roster, & stages. it's just too bad it plays like rear end.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:58
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Ryoga posted:99 has the best soundtrack, roster, & stages.    Quite possibly the best fighting game stage ever.
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Jul 19, 2017 23:14
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Which of these games is the best? 98 is the best game mechanically, but Garou will always have a place in my heart because it is SNK at its artistic zenith. Character design, art, animation, and soundtrack all came together to create a beautiful game.
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Jul 19, 2017 23:14
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Which of these games is the best? 
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Jul 20, 2017 00:43
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What the ficn
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Jul 20, 2017 00:49
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Well, I didn't want to pull out the big guns in my opening argument, but there you have it.
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Jul 20, 2017 00:53
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Kushnood butt is a proud cool name
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Jul 20, 2017 01:15
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Real hurthling! posted:Kushnood butt is a proud cool name the translators knew exactly what they were doing
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Jul 20, 2017 01:16
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the arika game's deck system looks loving amazing. in the real game i think you can choose any five you want, or maybe they will have a cost allowance on them or something, but now they are in set decks with names like shinobi, and aggro. about half your deck is just buffs like land 10 attacks and get 30% boost to meter growth, etc. and there's synergies like you can pair meter growth with a 15% damage boost that triggers when you get a bar of meter and so forth the really cool one though are the ability cards. Right now here are the effects on the dev created deck classes: Aggro: damage increases the more you attack, you can burst once a round after taking 300 damage to escape combos juggernaut: gain super armor after 300 damage, land 4 hard attacks to give hard attacks guard break infinity: use 7 meter bars to gain infinite meter, guard 30 attacks to cancel a guard into a super or special shinobi: go untouched for 6 seconds to gain invisible dashes, guard break and cancel as above miracle: gain all other abilities above except invisible dashes if you have full meter for 20 secs im hype
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Jul 20, 2017 01:35
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Real hurthling! posted:the arika game's deck system looks loving amazing. in the real game i think you can choose any five you want, or maybe they will have a cost allowance on them or something, but now they are in set decks with names like shinobi, and aggro. the ＧＯＵＧＩsystem
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Jul 20, 2017 01:39
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Dias posted:the ＧＯＵＧＩsystem We just need akuma to show up in another game and we can call it the Gouki system
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Jul 20, 2017 01:43
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people are comparing to to xtrekken gems but the key difference is that for the most part the effects are permanant so they're an actual tactical advantage, the ones that aren't just buffs are actually really interesting abilities and not just autoblock or something and also it doesn't make your character a neon looking piece of poo poo i'm stoked to play kairi in a game in 2018
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Jul 20, 2017 01:45
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It reminds me of Hearthstone Quest Cards, to be honest. I'm just afraid there's gonna be a "solved" system eventually, but I guess that just means the system is redundant as long as it's not something waaay too toxic.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:16
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They also seem to still be in the "trying a bunch of poo poo out" phase because the first showing of the game had a homing jump and sidesteps and those were gone at evo.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:47
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