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I tried D3 to see if I wanted to pick it up on sale, and I was amazed at how bad it was. The powers and sound effects and such largely felt satisfying, but their magic was immediately drained by the noticeable input lag I was getting. Bumping the difficulty up to Hard, which according to hardcore D3 fans is the correct way to play, just made every enemy take twice as many hits to kill without any meaningfully noticeable increase in progress or better loot (or challenge). And even skipping the story parts, the opening areas of the game are painfully slow and dull. Then I saw a discussion where it was made clear that, lol no, you're not supposed to play story mode. You're supposed to play adventure mode. And then get someone to powerlevel you to 70 so you can grind incremental improvements to your min/maxed endgame build like everyone else. No thanks!
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Jul 19, 2017 08:34
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John Murdoch posted:Then I saw a discussion where it was made clear that, lol no, you're not supposed to play story mode. You're supposed to play adventure mode. And then get someone to powerlevel you to 70 so you can grind incremental improvements to your min/maxed endgame build like everyone else. No thanks! Hmm, that sounds a lot like... Diablo II. Memories of Baal runs and Uber Tristram leveling... one heck of a way to waste a summer vacation.
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Jul 19, 2017 12:15
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I can understand not liking the game, but it is a bit odd to get into a loot based ARPG and turn your nose up at the idea of incremental loot improvements.
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Jul 19, 2017 14:54
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The annoying thing is no one makes a game with that style of top-down, action combat, build dependant, mouse based gameplay with out making it a skinner box gamble game. I want the former but not the latter. The Auction House did a lot to improve D3 for me but they nixed it. I just want to experiment with different builds in a fun to play action rpg without needing to gamble up a bunch of super rare bullshit to make those builds work.
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Jul 19, 2017 15:03
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Have you played victor vran?
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Jul 19, 2017 15:07
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John Murdoch posted:I tried D3 to see if I wanted to pick it up on sale, and I was amazed at how bad it was. The powers and sound effects and such largely felt satisfying, but their magic was immediately drained by the noticeable input lag I was getting. Bumping the difficulty up to Hard, which according to hardcore D3 fans is the correct way to play, just made every enemy take twice as many hits to kill without any meaningfully noticeable increase in progress or better loot (or challenge). And even skipping the story parts, the opening areas of the game are painfully slow and dull. The loot drops only really get better at difficulties higher than torment. Keep in mind there are 17 difficulty levels and you only set it to 2/17
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Jul 19, 2017 15:25
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Digirat posted:Have you played victor vran? Seconded. It's different, but still very good once you figure out the different mechanics. Edit: it starts seeming shallow, short, and dumb, but once you get a few levels and get the hang of it, it is incredibly customizable and full of customizable challenges. Aleph Null has a new favorite as of 16:12 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 16:03
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Did I play the same Diablo 2 as you guys? It's literally just killing the same poo poo over and over until you get an extra 1% dps so you can repeat the process
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Jul 19, 2017 16:09
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Len posted:Did I play the same Diablo 2 as you guys? It's literally just killing the same poo poo over and over until you get an extra 1% dps so you can repeat the process That's literally all (A)RPGs.
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Jul 19, 2017 16:14
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Oldstench posted:That's literally all (A)RPGs. Yeah but people are acting like Diablo 3 is awful because that's what the end game is
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Jul 19, 2017 16:21
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Len posted:Yeah but people are acting like Diablo 3 is awful because that's what the end game is What really dragged down Diablo 3 for me was the removal of meaningful character customization- I liked building an ice sorceress and then turning around and making a weird melee fire one for a completely different gameplay experience, start to finish. Different stats, skill progression, the whole nine. Now you can just.. swap on the fly, whenever, why not, and the only thing that differentiates class characters is what they're wearing. That always felt like a downgrade to me.
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Jul 19, 2017 16:44
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Len posted:Yeah but people are acting like Diablo 3 is awful because that's what the end game is That was the endgame of Diablo 2, too. Diablo 3 at least is prettier to look at and a hell of a lot more forgiving and convenient. No need to worry about planning a character from the ground up, swap in what's effective here or looks interesting, change to something else as you please.
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Jul 19, 2017 16:51
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Len posted:Did I play the same Diablo 2 as you guys? It's literally just killing the same poo poo over and over until you get an extra 1% dps so you can repeat the process I'd say the point is that - and this shouldn't be a shocker, but always seems to be - is that once a Diablo game devolves into "Do this kind of run until your eyes bleed for 1% extra DPS", it can be incredibly easy to jump ship unless that 1% really matters to you. Like, I've got a Crusader that I don't play anymore, because the only improvements I can make to the character is getting perfect and/or orange bordered versions of the items I already have, and gently caress that.
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Jul 19, 2017 16:52
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Hedgehog Pie posted:A super minor one: once you donate soapstone to the museum, its description will inform you that it "is very popular for carving". Despite this, it's still treated as a bad gift to give to Leah... who is a sculptor, and who asks you to look for materials she could use in her casual dialogue. Heck, she's the only character who likes being given the nigh-useless driftwood item for this reason! 
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Jul 19, 2017 16:55
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MisterBibs posted:I'd say the point is that - and this shouldn't be a shocker, but always seems to be - is that once a Diablo game devolves into "Do this kind of run until your eyes bleed for 1% extra DPS", it can be incredibly easy to jump ship unless that 1% really matters to you. But you went into the game knowing that was the end game. All arpgs do that. I understand the complaint of characters not being as unique (even if end game pretty much everything was a cookie cutter build) but ultimately it's just an arpg and that's always the end game.
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Jul 19, 2017 16:56
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You will find that a loving giant amount of people played D2 as a short easy single player experience through normal only. The reason D2 is better than D3 is that those people had fun too. You cant have the only good gameplay be the late game grinding bit, the entire experience has to be good. Sure eventually after you've made 3-4 characters in D2 you were interested in cow runs and baal runs and skipping straight to level 70 ish, but you enjoyed that first character and the exploration you did. D3 completely fails to give any sort of meaningful experience except for the very very late game, which even then is just not that good. If you don't have fun on the way to the endgame you aren't going to stick with a game anyway.
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Jul 19, 2017 17:51
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Agent355 posted:You will find that a loving giant amount of people played D2 as a short easy single player experience through normal only. That's a subjective opinion though. I had a blast with D3 and I put 60 hours into it launch week (I was unemployed). I never did any of the big late game stuff nor did I buy the expansion. But since I wasn't level 70 playing in adventure mode I didn't have fun?
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Jul 19, 2017 17:54
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It's subjective yes, but far fewer people had fun with the vanilla D3 experience than D2 so there are some objective weaknesses there. I mean that guy just a few posts up was talking about how not fun the story mode is.
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Jul 19, 2017 17:56
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Hey you know what I love about strategy RPGs Fire Emblem Fates? i love having to do certain things on my turn in a specific order for no identifiable reason as well as having to guess where I can stand to hit enemies with ranged attacks because once you move the attack range indicator dissappears. Neat!
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Jul 19, 2017 18:04
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Barudak posted:Hey you know what I love about strategy RPGs Fire Emblem Fates? i love having to do certain things on my turn in a specific order for no identifiable reason as well as having to guess where I can stand to hit enemies with ranged attacks because once you move the attack range indicator dissappears. Yeah, strategy games can be pretty annoying in this regard, where they don't allow you to plan out moves in greater detail. In Fates, I hated it how, to see the outcome of moving someone to the side of the enemy and then moving someone next to them for a team attack, if you didn't like how the team attack would work out, you couldn't back it out to the start since the first person already committed to the move. Is this the type of thing you were getting at? This is why I declined to play XCOM on Ironman, because I had a few occasions were a misclick led to my characters either going to a different spot than I wanted them to, or getting there using a terrible path. Furthermore, there were occasions were I moved teammates to a spot where they should've had an open view of the enemy, but because there was a twig in the way I didn't see, they technically can't shoot them. In XCOM, you can't back out of mistakes like that because that wouldn't gel with the overwatch system they have in place, so I just decided against that frustration and put it on normal.
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Jul 19, 2017 18:34
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FutureCop posted:Yeah, strategy games can be pretty annoying in this regard, where they don't allow you to plan out moves in greater detail. In Fates, I hated it how, to see the outcome of moving someone to the side of the enemy and then moving someone next to them for a team attack, if you didn't like how the team attack would work out, you couldn't back it out to the start since the first person already committed to the move. Is this the type of thing you were getting at? It isn't helped at all that the LoS calculations in Xcom can be loving spotty at best, and it doesn't give the best indication of what your soldiers can see from where they are.
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Jul 19, 2017 18:40
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FutureCop posted:Yeah, strategy games can be pretty annoying in this regard, where they don't allow you to plan out moves in greater detail. In Fates, I hated it how, to see the outcome of moving someone to the side of the enemy and then moving someone next to them for a team attack, if you didn't like how the team attack would work out, you couldn't back it out to the start since the first person already committed to the move. Is this the type of thing you were getting at?. Its this and some really basic things like if you pair a unit on your turn but dont do anything else yet because you realized that was a bad pair, you cant unpair a unit without wasting both units turns. For something I completely dont understand if you have a paired unit and switch which of the two is the lead unit, you can no longer take your turns move action but if you move first and then switch you can.
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Jul 19, 2017 18:45
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Fire Emblem games just...aren't that good. Every few years I'll forget that basic truth and pick a new one up, only to put it down fifteen chapters in when all of the little annoyances and RNG gently caress-yous outweigh the meager fun I've eked out.
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Jul 19, 2017 19:18
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Oldstench posted:That's literally all (A)RPGs. I think Grim Dawn does a pretty good job of tying character strength and story progress, rather than the typical "everything is trivial until endgame" method. There's still grinding to do at endgame if you want to, though.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:41
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so is victor vran worth playing? I started it up and it seemed shallow and tedious but maybe I didn't give it a fair shake. the idea of a diablo clone where dodging matters sounded fun but when I gave it a spin I just wanted to play any dark souls game instead
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Jul 19, 2017 21:46
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poptart_fairy posted:I can understand not liking the game, but it is a bit odd to get into a loot based ARPG and turn your nose up at the idea of incremental loot improvements. There's a difference between naturally finding new gear over the course of the main game and purposefully grinding randomized endgame content 24/7 until a specific shiny drops to improve your DPS by 1%. Fried Watermelon posted:The loot drops only really get better at difficulties higher than torment. Keep in mind there are 17 difficulty levels and you only set it to 2/17 Like I said, these were hardcore crazies insisting that bumping it up to hard would magically make the game fun. Maybe they've suitably not actually played on the opening difficulties in forever. I was mostly hoping hard would make it so that I had to actually avoid enemies, or use control skills, or even hit the potion hotkey, but no dice. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 22:14 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 22:08
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When you play D3 for the first time after a few levels you will notice that 'normal' becomes piss easy and everythign dies in one shot and does no damage. Then the advice to turn it up to hard makes sense because the intent is for you to constantly wiggle the difficulty to the point where you feel challenged fairly. It is bad, that should not be a loving thing. It's the developers job to make the challenge appropriate through the game not the players. D3 is bad, don't play D3. Victor Vran is good and fun but I don't think it's really a diablo-like, I didn't feel the need to grind or anything and every playthrough feels very similiar. What I enjoyed about it was playing with the different weapons, finding a style I liked, and trying to complete the (sometimes intensely difficult) map challenges. Also it has great exploration as there are secrets stashed everywhere, but it's not really a diablo sort of game. Also grim dawn is amazing, everybody go play more grim dawn.
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Jul 19, 2017 23:26
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Agent355 posted:Also grim dawn is amazing, everybody go play more grim dawn. Echoing this, Grim Dawn is fun stuff. The setting is pretty cool, character builds are super customizeable, it's got a neat story and big trek across the map through that.
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Jul 20, 2017 00:34
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Agent355 posted:It is bad, that should not be a loving thing. It's the developers job to make the challenge appropriate through the game not the players. D3 is bad, don't play D3. No, it's a good thing. Different players enjoy different levels of challenge and have different levels of skill.
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Jul 20, 2017 01:07
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Thats like saying different people enjoy different music so every game should include a radio and no soundtrack. It's not exactly a wrong thing to say but it's ignoring the fact that difficulty and challenge and all that jazz has a huge impact on the way you experience a game and having a slider with 18 some odd settings is actively bad design.
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Jul 20, 2017 01:09
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Agent355 posted:It is bad, that should not be a loving thing. It's the developers job to make the challenge appropriate through the game not the players. D3 is bad, don't play D3. This is the dumbest sentiment I've seen in awhile; being able to change difficulty on the fly in d3 is one of the best things about it
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Jul 20, 2017 01:12
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Being able to make the game exactly as hard or as easy as you want at literally any given moment, with rewards tailored accordingly, is fantastic and it blows my mind to see someone bitching about it
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Jul 20, 2017 01:14
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Agent355 posted:When you play D3 for the first time after a few levels you will notice that 'normal' becomes piss easy and everythign dies in one shot and does no damage. Then the advice to turn it up to hard makes sense because the intent is for you to constantly wiggle the difficulty to the point where you feel challenged fairly. I don't know, I like it when games add highly-versatile difficulty systems to let everyone play the way they want to play. In Diablo 3 you can keep working your way through the difficulties for extra loot and power or stay on the lower levels and blast everything to bits in one click. Dishonored 2 had a really cool difficulty adjustment system that let you change all kinds of things like whether enemies were good at noticing you from above, how aggressive they were in combat, how long they'd pursue you, etc. With a lot of games, it's hard to know what the difficulties really mean- is Hard "appropriately challenging for someone who plays a lot of video games" hard, or is it "punch you in the genitals until you piss blood, gently caress you, we barely tested this" hard? Adding in the option for fine-tuning it helps problems like that not be a problem. But this is the PYF thing dragging this game down thread, so let me stay on topic: Behold studios, makers of Knights of Pen & Paper and Chroma Squad, like to throw in lots of pop culture & meme references into their games, but they do it so often it gets old, fast, and they don't really tend to make jokes with them, they're just like "hey, this thing exists." I don't think English is the team's first language, so maybe they're more clever in the original text.
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Jul 20, 2017 01:19
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I don't understand why people are talking about "doing things at end game" and whether those things are good or bad in a game that you don't pay a monthly fee for and where there's at least 20 hours of content preceding it. You did it! You beat the game! You got to the end! You can play something else if you want! You've gotten your money's worth. e: Regarding Hollow Knight White Palace chat earlier - White Palace isn't the only place in the game where you need to pogo, there's multiple platforming challenges before that. I probably retried the one in Deepnest more times than I retried any section of White Palace. White Palace also gives you infinite retries if you equip the Hiveblood, Deep Focus and Grubsong charms for minimal downtime so you're both constantly regenerating HP, and also get HP-fuel everything time you get hurt and turn that HP-fuel into twice the normal right. I think you actually have to do less pogo-ing in the White Palace compared to some of the other optional challenges of the game, especially if you're doing some things before you get the double jump (and the game expects that, there's only a few things that are obviously "you need double jump to get here and we didn't expect you to manipulate an enemy over here"). bewilderment has a new favorite as of 01:41 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 01:37
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bewilderment posted:I don't understand why people are talking about "doing things at end game" and whether those things are good or bad in a game that you don't pay a monthly fee for and where there's at least 20 hours of content preceding it. The story mode in Diablo 3 is a complete afterthought. It should take you something like 5 hours to get through the first time, and fewer after that, not 20. It's also pretty bad, most players skip as much of it as possible, and Blizzard has focused almost entirely on "endgame" content after release, aside from the new act added in the expansion. Diablo III is basically an MMO in all but name (lots of games are, now). It doesn't have a monthly fee or a non-instanced world, but it does have pretty much everything else. bewilderment posted:Regarding Hollow Knight White Palace chat earlier - The pogoing isn't really the difficult part of the white palace.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:27
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The Moon Monster posted:The pogoing isn't really the difficult part of the white palace. I know, but I was referring to this post: Nuebot posted:The game has castlevania levels of knockback and this area is the first time you're actually expected to do things like bounce on enemies and obstacles to make it through a room, it's an enormous and sudden spike in difficulty and poo poo design and IIRC, once you enter it you can't go back until you finish it. Not only has pogoing been present in optional challenges throughout the rest of the game, but... actually, looking closer, the rest of the post is inaccurate as well. The checkpoints are on any solid surface with a floor (but yes, you can accidentally checkpoint yourself backwards if you fall). You can leave the White Palace any time you want, there's an exist right where you start. Saws and spikes only take off one hit point. There's a bench central to each major hub of the palace, so even if you die and are frustratingly set back somehow, you still aren't all the way at the beginning (which would be horrifying). Literally the only way you can lose more than one HP at a time is if you fail at one of the few times it needs you to enemy-pogo, and take contact damage and then fall into a spike.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:35
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The Moon Monster posted:The story mode in Diablo 3 is a complete afterthought. It should take you something like 5 hours to get through the first time, and fewer after that, not 20. It's also pretty bad, most players skip as much of it as possible, and Blizzard has focused almost entirely on "endgame" content after release, aside from the new act added in the expansion. The story in Diablo 2 was skipped over as was 1. The stories of those games are "demons over there kill them" and then you do that by repeatedly murdering guys to get slightly better loot over and over and over. The only thing that set D3s story apart was the maps were far more standardized than the other games.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:35
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The Moon Monster posted:The story mode in Diablo 3 is a complete afterthought.... most players skip as much of it as possible This is up there with "everyone plays Femshep Vanguard, duh" that I mentioned, in terms of things people believe everyone does that actually a few percentage of people actually do. Great, you're still playing a 2012 game because you're doing T10 runs every half hour. But most people would be shocked at the notion of doing that, because they beat the game (killed Diablo, killed the Angel Guy). It's sorta like how all your average gamer friends looked at you funny for still playing Diablo 2 more than a year after it came out. Content: this is sort of meta, but I wish the playerbase in Grand Theft Auto 5 would've collectively got together and codified a numeral system for things like Stunt Jumps. There's one where I'm at that I cannot find the landmarks for, and googling is a chore at best and impossible at worse because ~this~ guide calls it #7, this video considers #7 one a completely other one, and I just wanna find where the hell to jump.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:36
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KingSlime posted:so is victor vran worth playing? The combat is great, both for having actual action gameplay like dodges and combos and for each of the different weapon types playing completely differently; one of the first weapon types you get is a shotgun and I wound up using it for most of my playtime because the timed reload mechanic and the skills that reward critical hits and killing blows made it play like a rhythm game. Also the dungeons are fun because they'll have specific challenges that have their own reward so they encourage skilled play or specific builds but if you're not interests you can just rush through once. The big problem is that the narrator is a super annoying snarky memelord who never shuts up and the game's "humor" is things like zombies dancing Gangnam Style and The Cake Is A Lie references.
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Jul 20, 2017 02:40
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Yeah, I just didn't see the appeal of that sort of loot treadmill endless re-running in Diablo-like games. You beat the game on the hardest difficulty or whatever, good job. Now you're playing again, to... get better loot? Which just lets you... play again but faster? Why not just design the game so the player character has the stats they're expected to have and go from there? edit: most MMOs have at least partially realised this, like how WoW got rid of weapon proficiency years ago, or how FF14 recently patched out stat allocation on levelling after realising everyone just dumps everything into one stat, so when you level you just get a bonus to that stat automatically.
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Jul 20, 2017 03:29
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