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TFRazorsaw posted:That goes back to the thing I said about treating people like a monolith, because 1) it assumes all people who write poo poo or have a ship are abusive to creators, and 2) assumes that the people who are mad about this are universally abusive to creators and that they're only coming from this from a place of being angry that "their ship" isn't canon, as opposed to being angry about the disrespectful way they went about it. I agree, absolutely never has someone who worked on a show or movie or whatever had to disable their social media or disengage from the fans because of the pure amount of bullshit they had to put up with. They're asking for it, really! The feelings that really need protecting are those of random weirdos on the internet who ship Barney Rubble and Fred Flintstone, I saw the looks they were giving each other in that one Fruity Pebbles ad and if you tell me I'm being unreasonable I'll bring a branch to your jaw, buckaroo
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Jul 27, 2017 16:45
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I'm willing to concede that I simply don't understand the anger and pain that shippers felt from that (IMO) silly video and probably never will. Maybe that's on me. I don't know.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:46
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If you have ever unironically talked about "head canon" I will find you and destroy you
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Jul 27, 2017 16:50
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STAC Goat posted:I'm willing to concede that I simply don't understand the anger and pain that shippers felt from that (IMO) silly video and probably never will. Maybe that's on me. I don't know. VVV No fuckin' way Pierson fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 16:51
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I always think of this when people discuss fan fiction
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Jul 27, 2017 16:51
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Terrific Accident posted:If you have ever unironically talked about "head canon" I will find you and destroy you Only head cannon I care about.  ]
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Jul 27, 2017 16:54
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Squashing Machine posted:I agree, absolutely never has someone who worked on a show or movie or whatever had to disable their social media or disengage from the fans because of the pure amount of bullshit they had to put up with. They're asking for it, really! The feelings that really need protecting are those of random weirdos on the internet who ship Barney Rubble and Fred Flintstone, I saw the looks they were giving each other in that one Fruity Pebbles ad and if you tell me I'm being unreasonable I'll bring a branch to your jaw, buckaroo That has happened before. I see nothing to indicate it's happened here, and everytime I've asked for it or searched for a meaningful example of any of them having their lives disrupted by it, I haven't found anything. When that line has been crossed, absolutely, that's a problem, but it hasn't here at all. The only thing even remotely close to that is Benoist's publicist implicitly threatening litigation to a fan whose life actually would be destroyed if that actually happened. It happening in other instances doesn't mean that it applies to ALL situations that arise. In fact, as of this writing, it even looks like Jeremy Jordan's instagram has more than moved on. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 16:55
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Pierson posted:It isn't shippers it's their LGTB fanbase (emphasis on the L) and it was the culmination of what a lot of them see as either incredibly shoddy decisions or very bad faith on the part of the CW/showrunners, when the CW has in the past liked to use their fanbases as positive publicity in polls/awards/metrics. But... the Supergirl showrunners/cast didn't do or say anything about any lesbian characters. They didn't kill off the lesbian romance or character or over hype their importance or something. A bunch of fans fantasized about straight characters being lesbians and then a bunch of people in the show randomly said "No, they're clearly not. That's weird that some people think they are." Like I said, I clearly don't get it and I'm open to the possibility that that's on me.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:02
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Squashing Machine posted:I agree, absolutely never has someone who worked on a show or movie or whatever had to disable their social media or disengage from the fans because of the pure amount of bullshit they had to put up with. They're asking for it, really! The feelings that really need protecting are those of random weirdos on the internet who ship Barney Rubble and Fred Flintstone, I saw the looks they were giving each other in that one Fruity Pebbles ad and if you tell me I'm being unreasonable I'll bring a branch to your jaw, buckaroo I think you might be my spirit animal.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:08
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STAC Goat posted:But... the Supergirl showrunners/cast didn't do or say anything about any lesbian characters. They didn't kill off the lesbian romance or character or over hype their importance or something. A bunch of fans fantasized about straight characters being lesbians and then a bunch of people in the show randomly said "No, they're clearly not. That's weird that some people think they are." When you are emotionally immature, it is easy to attach yourself to these fictional characters and project your own feelings and desires onto them. Part of your identity are the stories you create and consume, and you seek out that which conforms to your preconceived ideas. In this case, that can lead to a slippery slope where you get deeper and deeper and feel a stronger connection to the fictions you and your peers have created then to the things that originally inspired them. When the original cast says "lol, nope" you are offended, and feel attacked. Don't they know you've invested time, energy, and feelings into this fandom? Don't they understand how unbelievably important it is, how much it means? Your fiction is more real than their fiction! It only means that much to you and the others like you. Sorry. To outsiders, you might as well be telling them how important your stamp collection is or showing off your mint collection of mangas from the 80s. Outsiders just don't get it. It's not a mental illness or even a sign of mental illness as far as I know but I work in computers not psychology. It's just what people do. Find something that makes them feel good and keep pulling that lever even after the food pellets stop dropping. Edit: threatening folks and stalking folks is a sign of mental illness, though.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:10
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STAC Goat posted:But... the Supergirl showrunners/cast didn't do or say anything about any lesbian characters. They didn't kill off the lesbian romance or character or over hype their importance or something. A bunch of fans fantasized about straight characters being lesbians and then a bunch of people in the show randomly said "No, they're clearly not. That's weird that some people think they are." You're oversimplifying it. First of all, why is imagining that two characters who have good chemistry may like each other, especially if you're gay yourself and dissatisfied with how clumsy and Mon-El and Kara are written, weird? Why is that worth mockery? Next, why did Benoist call that brave? What the hell is brave about "standing up" to a group of primarily LGBT people? And then there's what happens next. Let's give Jordan and Benoist a benefit of a doubt. Chris Wood then says "Sexuality is about how other people perceive you and not how you identify." In what universe is that not going to not be extremely uncomfortable to people who struggle with acceptance about who they are. Even if shippers had hounded and driven people off social media that would be a dumb, pigheaded statement that people would rightly call out.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:11
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STAC Goat posted:But... the Supergirl showrunners/cast didn't do or say anything about any lesbian characters. They didn't kill off the lesbian romance or character or over hype their importance or something. A bunch of fans fantasized about straight characters being lesbians and then a bunch of people in the show randomly said "No, they're clearly not. That's weird that some people think they are." It started with the insane drama over The 100, that basically encouraged people to take a really close look about how lesbian characters were treated on television shows (like poo poo basically, and are regularly killed off, shown as less than other characters, used as fodder to drive development in other chartacters, and generally receive terrible representation). Then you get to Supergirl which made a big deal about having a lesbian couple in their show, but also gave them almost zero screen-time and did nothing with them. This was at the exact same time as the show made a lot of other questionable decisions like breaking up the main character with her black boyfriend and shacking her up with a Generic CW White Boyfriend who was just a horrible rear end in a top hat, and also a bunch of other questionable decisions in a show which at its creation explicitly called itself progressive and feminist. Then this weird cast interview happens where the cast are far meaner than they needed to be to a large segment of their fanbase, and the show-runner's response to the drama was basically "this is not a big deal" and the worst kind of non-apology. Then the news comes out the lesbian relationship they were so proud of has one half of it becoming a guest-star on only a few episodes, just side-lining it entirely. This is a longer post than I thought it would be and I probably missed some stuff somewhere but that's all of it basically. People feel pretty betrayed that a show that started with a lot of progressive promise has essentially treated their loyalty like a joke and taken their support for granted while using it as publicity fodder. Pierson fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 17:14
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Pierson posted:It's complex yeah but this is kind of one of those straw-that-broke-the-camels-back moments that started months ago. I follow it mostly because I know some people in real life and they genuinely are broken up about it not because of shipping but because they see it as one more event in which their sexuality is treated as a joke in media. uhhh, did you watch season 2? They had plenty of screentime dedicated to their relationship.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:18
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I don't think anyone's mentally ill. I mean, someone involved probably is, but I'm not making any kind of sweeping claim of that. But yeah, its just a weird hobby. And most hobbies are weird. Most people don't care about your coin collection or stamp collection or mint condition action heroes or baseball cards or signed baseballs or vintage bottle caps or whatever it is you do to entertain yourself. And if you let people peek into how deep you get into your hobby they're probably going to think its really weird. But that's fine. You should laugh it off and say they probably have something you don't understand. We're all a little weird. Normal is boring. TFRazorsaw posted:You're oversimplifying it. First of all, why is imagining that two characters who have good chemistry may like each other, especially if you're gay yourself and dissatisfied with how clumsy and Mon-El and Kara are written, weird? Why is that worth mockery? Wait, do you think Wood's comment was sincere and not sarcastic? Or the "brave" thing as if she was suggesting he was taking some principled stance instead of just risking the ire of people on the internet? We seem to have interpreted this entire thing very differently. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 17:18
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:uhhh, did you watch season 2? They had plenty of screentime dedicated to their relationship.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:21
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STAC Goat posted:Wait, do you think Wood's comment was sincere and not sarcastic? Or the "brave" thing as if she was suggesting he was taking some principled stance instead of just risking the ire of people on the internet? We seem to have interpreted this entire thing very differently. This is how I took it, but that seems to be part of TFRazorsaw's deal: the cast laughed off something that some people take deadly seriously. They should have understood how... um... devoted some people are to their pet theories and treated like the Big Serious Issue that Really Matters that it is. I'll give them a pass because of the fantastic Alex coming out arc. And, if they had concentrated more on Alex and Maggie than they did (which they actually did quite a bit), folks would complain more about romance in their super hero show. You gotta please all the fans, not just a subset.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:23
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STAC Goat posted:I don't think anyone's mentally ill. I mean, someone involved probably is, but I'm not making any kind of sweeping claim of that. This is coming from my own experience, but when I came out as bisexual to my father, he more or less told me that he didn't see me that way, that because I'd never been with or dated a guy, he wasn't sure if he believed me or if I was just looking for attention. Using that non-seriously doesn't magically make it not insulting. The joke is still touching on something that LGBT people have to deal with, and it's a painful thing that shouldn't be part of something like this. Sarcasm doesn't serve as a magic bandaid that removes all that. EDIT - Aleph, it's not about pet theories. I'm not naive, there probably are people who are over invested in Lena/Kara. But some people are just living vicariously through this because they like to imagine the star of the show is like them. Key word: Imagine. Project. Live vicariously through. It makes them happy because it's rare the main character is someone like them. These people may very well know it's never going to happen, but they at least felt that it was okay to have it in mind. And then this comes along... and that's apparently a big loving joke to the people bringing these characters to life. People who are constantly bombarded with "light ribbing", not just about ships or whatever stupid fandom thing, but about who they are. It builds up. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 17:26
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TFRazorsaw posted:This is coming from my own experience, but when I came out as bisexual to my father, he more or less told me that he didn't see me that way, that because I'd never been with or dated a guy, he wasn't sure if he believed me or if I was just looking for attention. That's something I do totally get. That making light of a real problem people experience is probably a lovely joke to make. But like, his intent obviously wasn't to do that. He clearly just thought he was making a clever counter to McGrath's "sure, I guess you can read lesbian subtext into the characters even if there is none" peace making. Which like I agreed with on paper, but I totally get what you're saying that maybe applying that same argument to fictional characters undermines that it happens to real people and hurts them. I'm more than happy to concede that I and the Supergirl cast just didn't take this "shipping" thing as seriously as apparently a lot of people did as seeing it as some greater sign of LGBT affairs. I still think its kind of nuts to hold a show or network to a standard of some shipping thing, but I can grant that maybe a bunch of people (myself included) just weren't sensitive to some greater thing it was representing to some people. But like, at some point we have to be able to step back and realize that they weren't attacking the LGBT community. Maybe there was some friendly fire, but they clearly thought they were just making fun of some people with a weird hobby on social media. This is also weird for me because I literally don't even know the actor's names and don't pay any attention to this stuff so like I feel weird and somewhat guilty because the truth is a week from now I won't have any thought to whether or not Mon El managed to find a way to make right with some people he accidently offended. Like, as a general rule I believe people should be kind and forgiving so if you accidently offend someone you should try and fix it, so I think he should. But I'd be lying if I said it actually was something I'd be invested in past tomorrow. And I totally get that there's going to be a bunch of people who remain really invested in it once I've moved on.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:40
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Creators are not responsible for the feelings of their audience, and they have no moral duty to do the things you want them to. If a joke made in a random interview on the internet is enough to shake your identity to its core, then maybe, just maybe, you're the one being unreasonable and not the person whose job it is to portray a space alien who punches other space aliens in the face
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Jul 27, 2017 17:46
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That's the thing. "Intent" isn't really a bandaid either, and it doesn't excuse things in the same way "I'm sorry if you were offended" isn't a real apology, because it removes responsibility for the fall out. Most of these situations happen without the intention of malice, but in the end their effects are still the same. They should have just apologized. People ARE allowed to gently caress up, at least in my book. At least Jordan said he was willing to learn. Squashing Machine posted:Creators are not responsible for the feelings of their audience, and they have no moral duty to do the things you want them to. If a joke made in a random interview on the internet is enough to shake your identity to its core, then maybe, just maybe, you're the one being unreasonable and not the person whose job it is to portray a space alien who punches other space aliens in the face The SG creators have made a point that they want to be seen as progressive. They've used the "feelings" of the people watching their show to promote it. They hitched their wagon to the train of the LGBT and feminist portions of their fanbase on their own. They don't get to profit off people's good will and then say those same people don't matter when they do something hurtful. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 17:47
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Shippers are currently hijacking a post on Benoist's twitter about Trump's military transgender ban in order to refocus it on what is truly important: themselves. It's majestic
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Jul 27, 2017 17:51
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I'd just like to issue a general apology for saying in 1998 that Donald Duck definitely doesn't have a penis. I've taken time to reflect on this subject and feel like I've grown a lot in the last 19 years. His penis might just be retractable and he's more comfortable not wearing pants.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:54
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TFRazorsaw posted:That's the thing. "Intent" isn't really a bandaid either, and it doesn't excuse things in the same way "I'm sorry if you were offended" isn't a real apology, because it removes responsibility for the fall out. Most of these situations happen without the intention of malice, but in the end their effects are still the same. Intent shouldn't be an excuse, but it can certainly matter as context. Mon El should apologize for offending people, but the people he should apologize to should also recognize that he didn't mean to offend them. Understanding is a two way street. That's different from like "I'm sorry if you were offended I used a slur, but I'm going to do it again." Which I THINK is why I was trying to really engage you and give you the chance to change my mind instead of just dismissing this as something I didn't think was worth being mad about. And at the very least you definitely gave me a different angle to look at it from and some things to think about.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:56
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TFRazorsaw posted:That's the thing. "Intent" isn't really a bandaid either, and it doesn't excuse things in the same way "I'm sorry if you were offended" isn't a real apology, because it removes responsibility for the fall out. Most of these situations happen without the intention of malice, but in the end their effects are still the same. Maybe they just don't give a single gently caress about shippers?
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Jul 27, 2017 17:56
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It's extremely healthy to demand apologies from people every third time they say anything anywhere, and to get huffy if they don't comply. How dare they not apologize to me, the person who can't regulate their thoughts and reactions long enough to get through a five minute youtube video
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Jul 27, 2017 18:02
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Aleph Null posted:Maybe they just don't give a single gently caress about shippers? If they didn't, this wouldn't have happened. STAC Goat posted:Intent shouldn't be an excuse, but it can certainly matter as context. Mon El should apologize for offending people, but the people he should apologize to should also recognize that he didn't mean to offend them. Understanding is a two way street. That's different from like "I'm sorry if you were offended I used a slur, but I'm going to do it again." I'm sorry but... "understanding is a two way street" is predicated on the idea that both positions are equal. "I didn't mean to" doesn't really acknowledge responsibility, it's another way of pushing the responsibility off of the person who said it. It doesn't put it on the person who was offended, but IT does make it sound like it was out of the person who said it's control, and I don't think that does enough to make them analyze or confront their behavior. But then I guess that's anecdotal too, based on people I know who've made similar statements and not changed. I've struggled with it myself. Soothing Vapors posted:Shippers are currently hijacking a post on Benoist's twitter about Trump's military transgender ban in order to refocus it on what is truly important: themselves. It's majestic I will agree this is a bit ridiculous. Not the time or place.
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Jul 27, 2017 18:11
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Squashing Machine posted:It's extremely healthy to demand apologies from people every third time they say anything anywhere, and to get huffy if they don't comply. How dare they not apologize to me, the person who can't regulate their thoughts and reactions long enough to get through a five minute youtube video Yes. They said "anything". Their words are meaningless. Noise and air escaped from their vocal maw devoid of meaning and context, and I want them to apologize to me, myself, and no one else, and I am not capable of empathy or solidarity with people who were perturbed by the non-words escaping from their noise holes. You've got me, dude.
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Jul 27, 2017 18:15
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The issue appears to me that the CW does pander to shippers and if this was a heterosexual one, they would probably pull the trigger. So I can see why people are upset, however that doesn't justify the fans doing what they are doing. I mean they literally had Thea explain shipping in an episode of arrow with the ship name in a news headline. I also don't know if I buy the unintentional nature of it either but that might just be the cynic in me.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:27
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What's the pandering thing? I'm not saying its not there, I just don't know. I know the drama around the 100 a couple of seasons ago but is there other stuff? The one thing I can think of is Oliver/Felicity over on Arrow but like Felicity was overtly attracted to Oliver from the start so it really doesn't seem that similar to me. But I could easily be missing other stuff since I don't follow these fanbases or anything.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:33
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Supergirl s3: Intrdocuing Vice-President Mike Pence as Winn
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Jul 27, 2017 20:53
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Dr. We have multiple cases of Hiatosis. Acute Shipping and other psychological illnesses, recommend euthanasia.
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Jul 28, 2017 10:43
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Supergirl - The Threatening of a Cast of a CW Show
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Jul 28, 2017 10:49
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Frustrated Artists have shows, meaningless sex, friends. Frustrated Autists have Tumblr.
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Jul 28, 2017 10:53
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Oben posted:Supergirl - The Threatening of a Cast of a CW Show 
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Jul 28, 2017 11:16
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Rocksicles posted:Frustrated Artists have shows, meaningless sex, friends. And now we've hit rock bottom.
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Jul 28, 2017 13:20
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Rocksicles posted:Dr. We have multiple cases of Hiatosis. Acute Shipping and other psychological illnesses, recommend euthanasia. No, Doctor We is a different show.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:26
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Bruceski posted:No, Doctor We is a different show. Dr, who?
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Jul 28, 2017 19:57
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Bruceski posted:No, Doctor We is a different show. Autist-correct does work!
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Jul 28, 2017 20:34
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I'm about halfway through my rewatch of Season 2, and so far I think the biggest missed opportunity is that they've presented Kara as being wrong several times, and then not quite known what to do with that.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:43
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howe_sam posted:I'm about halfway through my rewatch of Season 2, and so far I think the biggest missed opportunity is that they've presented Kara as being wrong several times, and then not quite known what to do with that.
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