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marshmallow creep posted:I wish I could have convinced literally anyone i know to go into 3rd ed warhammer because the unique dice mechanics for resolutions and injuries and this and that and and... was cool. I spent way to much on that game but never played it. The combat style thing was a little clunky, but they kept the dice for Star Wars and their new generic product.
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Jul 28, 2017 17:41
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I remember playing a game of 40k, think it was Deathwatch, and something like auto-fire is more accurate and more damage than single target sort of sniping.
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Jul 28, 2017 17:44
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Firstborn posted:I remember playing a game of 40k, think it was Deathwatch, and something like auto-fire is more accurate and more damage than single target sort of sniping. Semi-Auto gives you +10 BS and a hit for every two Degrees of Success Regular attack just... rolls for a single shot. However, it's a half-action (Semi-Auto is full), so you can aim for the other half... and get +10 BS  EDIT: Full Auto Burst gives you +20 BS and a hit for every Degree of Success.
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Jul 28, 2017 17:54
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Also you can't move an appreciable distance in a half action in 40kRP, since most weapon ranges are in the hundreds of meters and PC movement rates are usually around 3m per half action, with appreciable movement only happening if you run. 40kRP was basically 'find a good piece of cover, hide behind it, full auto, maybe aimed single shot if you have a weapon that gets bonuses for that and you can hit a spot out of cover. Also put everything you have into Dodge because there's no way in hell you're tanking any serious fire and armor is mostly worthless.' The damage scaling and armor pen are one of the big things I mean when I say 40kRP feels like a GM who didn't really 'get' WHFRP2e tinkering around to make a sci-fi spinoff that kinda falls apart. 'This weapon does 4d10+5 Pen6 and has a full auto setting. Everyone in this setting has like 30-40 HP max. PCs have about 10-20. This is a good idea.' They probably should've realized something was wrong when enemies in Deathwatch started to need HP pools in the hundreds to last more than one turn. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 17:59
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Well if a sword in a completely different setting does THIS much, then a gun must obviously be way better.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:04
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I mean, on one hand they had the obvious problem of 'this is a setting with tanks and anti-tank weapons that PCs can carry and use. And also automatic weapons.' So they were always going to have to account for that. And in 40k the TT game, a lot of weapons are based around making peoples' armor worthless (or were in prior editions, I dunno what their 8th is like). Just when you make every serious weapon, say, Pen4 base you make even AV8 power armor not so handy, and that's about as good as armor gets. Contrast that against Fantasy, where getting a suit of plate is a huge upgrade to a fighter that is as much of a game-changer as getting a gun. Oh, also, with the proliferation of their equivalent of Impact (Tearing) and multi-die weapons (lots of heavy weapons did at least 2d10), they didn't change Fury for a long time, either. Even when they did, it was still triggered by rolling a 10. On one of your damage dice. On any of your full auto burst. So while in Fantasy you've got things like 'This weapon does about d10+3 damage in the hands of an average fighter with no special skills, which means it will do d10 damage adjusted to another average fighter with no armor, with armor functioning as a chance to reduce or negate the hit, and only a 1-10 chance of a chance of a critical hit', over in 40k things got nuts. On top of that, you could only get +20 to a stat over your lifetime (and that took significant investment, even if you were 'good' at that stat, since stats gained diminishing returns) and buying more wounds was hard-limited and expensive. Actually, getting more Wounds was *easiest* in the low-powered Dark Heresy and got progressively more pointless and more expensive as the line went on, because spending the same resources on making yourself harder to hit (or to a lesser degree, if you had Unnatural Toughness, spending it on trying to make your DR stat high enough that cover would protect you) was always a better investment. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 18:10
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I would be extremely down to play from WH on roll20 or a chat program or something.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:18
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Firstborn posted:I would be extremely down to play from WH on roll20 or a chat program or something. We play DH2E and DW on roll20 with some goons. Weapons fall into two categories: don't scratch your or takes you into crit. Plus, when talking about weapons and mechanics you forgot one thing: talents. We have a dude who did... 2d10+36 damage on the charge. The only ranged power house that we have is a Heavy Bolter Devastator marine. He is unlikely to have any other weapons, since that weapons is ridiculous with traits and attachments. ...I feel like someone could make a better balanced game than that.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:26
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Would WH40k's damage and health system make more sense if they were renamed, I dunno, "Shock" and "Morale/Combat Effectiveness"? That is, an overpowered 2d10+lots sword doesn't so much cleave an enemy and all his friends with ridiculous ease, but instead (treating the enemy and all his friends as a single unit) so devastates one man in the unit that the rest of it drops their weapons and routs/surrenders? It would make sense with the more outlandish/absurd weapons causing "instagib" levels of damage.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:31
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Warhammer Fantasy: Knights of the Grail Carcassone: Don't argue with the shepherdesses. Carcassone is a rough land. There isn't much good, arable farming land since it sits at the foot of mountains and covers Bretonnia's southern border with Tilea. The mountains are also home to enormous hosts of orcs, who like to try to invade Bretonnia and who the people of Carcassone will fight however they can. The constant danger has made the people of Carcassone more practical about defending their country than most of the kingdom. Sometimes, they'll hire on large bands of foreigners to watch their sheep, since no Breton lord would ever hire foreign mercenaries. The pay is low, but the Lords of Carcassone are remarkably clumsy about 'losing' large bags of gold where these shepards can get at it. Similarly, Duke Huebold is one of the only knights in the land who is willing to use ambushes and stealth against his enemies, arguing that greenskins coming down from the mountains to slaughter innocent folk don't have any honor and don't deserve a fair engagement. Foreigners aren't the only shepards in Carcassone; the country is famous for its 'shepardesses', who really do watch the sheep (wool is the main export for the province) but also happen to carry weapons and follow greenskin war parties, or set traps for them in the narrow mountain passes. These people are not officially warriors, just peasants tending their lord's flock, and so are allowable under Bretonnian custom. They even get their own solid fighter/mountain ranger starting class, and it's unique in being enterable by women who are not pretending to be men or nobles. Carcassone is also famous for the custom of the Birth Sword, and this thing is broken as all hell in gameplay. A baby boy (or woman being raised as a boy because her parents are desperate for an heir) is given a fine sword, supposedly the first thing they touch as a babe, which then hangs up above their mantle until they're old enough to learn to use it. This is represented by a unique talent, Birth Sword, available to characters from Carcassone. It makes their Birth Sword into a Hand Weapon that does SB+1 instead of SB and gives +5% WS, and +10% to fear tests. This is crazily good as a unique bonus, replacing one of the basic rolled-for Human Talents for characters of noble birth raised as men in Carcassone. Duke Huebold does not smile, does not laugh, does not joke, and does not even talk unless he has to. He's a grim, quiet man of short stature and wiry build, and an exceptional strategist known for using the mountains (and his unique shepards) to best advantage to kill orcs more efficiently. He has time for little else in his life, though he does have a wife and four children. People find it a little amazing that all his children look like and take after him; apparently his political marriage worked out better than they usually do. He's generally well respected, and everyone in Carcassone knows they need to be on point to keep their province (and by extension, the rest of the country) safe, so as long as he stays hard at work doing that, no-one will ever mock his terse demeanor. Well, except for knights from other provinces. At their own peril. The most interesting relationship with Carcassone is the one between Carcassone and Brionne. One would expect these very opposite provinces not to understand one another, but instead the people of Brionne acknowledge they owe their idyllic (relatively) existence to the determination of Carcassone's defenders. In turn, the people of Carcassone take pride in knowing that their stalwart defense allows a beautiful place like Brionne to exist. The fact that the Brionnians tend to run about composing songs in honor of the great victories of Carcassone and raising their standing in the eyes of the noble courts of the realm doesn't hurt relations, either. Of all the places in Bretonnia, Carcassone is the most likely to overlook the oddities of adventurers and give them a job. As long as you can put the most basic of a fig leaf on your oddity so that the Duke and others can claim you're normal enough, and as long as you're willing to fight orcs and other monsters constantly to earn your keep, Carcassone is one of the most honest places for oddball parties to work in the whole country. They're simply under attack too often to care. Aside from that, though, the provincial nature and lack of any big cities means that Carcassone has always felt like a better place for PCs to be from, rather than for PCs to work in. It just doesn't have as many plot hooks besides 'Kick the poo poo out of orcs', and let me tell you, the soccer hooligan schtick can't really sustain a campaign as well as you'd think. Next Time: Couronne, and a detailed examination of Louen Leoncour. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 4, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 18:37
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No, because morale is a specific thing in 40K and a lot of enemies at Space Marine level are essentially Morale: Yes, do not care about fear or shock, and so on.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:38
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Mors Rattus posted:No, because morale is a specific thing in 40K and a lot of enemies at Space Marine level are essentially Morale: Yes, do not care about fear or shock, and so on. 40k's constant parade of Implacable Horde Of Uncaring Foe and Hyper Elite Fearless Superman really sucks. Also, hilariously, if your character *does* care about fear, you get to get hosed really hard by 40kRP's fear system, where the 'average' Demon is Fear 3, which comes with a -20% to your WP. And you get hurt worse by failing the more you fail by. And the average PC has 30-40 WP. And all the Fighter careers have poor-ish WP, unlike in Fantasy. If you spent everything you had on WP and anti-fear talents short of Fearless, a character who started with an average WP roll would have a 41% chance, roll again if you fail once, to not get scared shitless by seeing a basic demon. Also note blowing that demon away is much easier now that you have heavy weapons, so 40k characters are both easy to scare out of their minds, and much bigger cowards for it, because the Empire Halberdier is way more likely to sack up and take on that huge horror with their polearm than the great Inquisitorial Acolyte or Heroic Guard Special Forces Guy or Space rear end in a top hat Capitalism Pirate is going to be with their anti-tank cannon.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:40
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Mors Rattus posted:No, because morale is a specific thing in 40K and a lot of enemies at Space Marine level are essentially Morale: Yes, do not care about fear or shock, and so on. Night10194 posted:40k's constant parade of Implacable Horde Of Uncaring Foe and Hyper Elite Fearless Superman really sucks. Dammit. I've been playing too much Ultimate General: Civil War.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:43
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Welcome to 40k, wherein anything related to Space Marines or Chaos is essentially the worst.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:44
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Warhammer Fantasy: Knights of the Grail Couronne: Home of horse madness and the ideal king Couronne's hat is horses. They have a huge amount of land that's too dry to be good for growing food crops but perfect for grazing horses, and the breeders of the Marches of Couronne in the east of the duchy are considered the best in Bretonnia. Given Bretonnian war horses are easily the best war horses in the Old World, 'best in Bretonnia' is really saying something. Couronne is the largest of the duchies, with a harsh coast to its north that's too rough to build big merchant ports, but isn't quite harsh or cliff-y enough to keep the Norse from raising them constantly. They also find themselves under attack from Orcs coming down from the Grey Mountains, but the biggest problem is definitely the Norse marauders, who come to take slaves, food, and wealth. The orcs from the mountains also ride strange, toothed horses that seem to be able to climb rock faces, and who the Couronnians can't tame no matter how hard they try. This is because the creepy meat-eating horses are actually intelligent, love killing, and are working with the orcs because the orcs provide them the best chance to kill things. Having your PCs figure this out could be a fun time. With the wide plains, the men and women of Couronne are completely and utterly horse-crazy. The ducal capitol at Couronne is built around an ancient elven Hippodrome, and while only the foundations remain the rest of the building has been rebuilt over the centuries to be used for the favorite sport of the duchy: Watching a dozen horses run in a circle very quickly. It's said that while a Brionnian would happily lend you his horse and kill you over his wife, a Couronnian would do the opposite. Since so many people are involved in the breeding and care of horses, even the peasants are deeply knowledgeable about their husbandry and bloodlines, and most of the peasants know how to ride (even if they don't own their own horse). Even Couronnian ladies are avid riders, and a noblewoman will obviously get the best horse she can, so it's not uncommon to see a dainty noble mounted on a mighty destrier just so she can say she owns one. The Duke of Couronne is also King of Bretonnia. I have to wonder if Louen's detractors (he's got to have a few) ever make note of the fact that he rides a bird-cat (Hippogriff) into battle rather than a proper Couronnian warhorse. As has been said before, King Louen is everything a King is supposed to be. He works hard, he's just in his rulings, and he has made it policy that no man can be harmed or prosecuted for anything said to him during a court case, to ensure he is given honest opinions. He keeps his word, has been faithful to allied nations and dangerous to those who threaten his country, and does everything he can to keep the peace between his subjects. At the same time, he is only one man, with limited time and limited information about what's going on in his realm. Yes, if the king gets involved justice will be done, but how often can the king get involved? Moreover, he is completely blind to the idea that there might be some sort of systemic injustice at place. He believes if every man and women did their duty as they were supposed to, like he does, the Bretonnian system of government would be the happiest and most just in all the world, without being able to see that the system of government does not exactly incentivize things going that way. He solves every problem he can find, but has no idea of their roots. There's also the issue of Earl Adalbert of the Eastern Marshes. The Earl is vassal to the Duke of Couronne, but wants to be vassal to the King, a more prestigious position, as a Baron. As the two are the same person at the moment, he thinks this is his best chance to get his wish, but Louen is wary of making a very powerful noble even more independent. Adalbert hires adventurers to help him find opportunities to distinguish himself as a great hero, such that the King will obviously make him a direct vassal, and to help with his maneuvering against other barons and earls. He has also looked east to Marienburg, which he borders, and has been pondering how if he were to conquer the richest port in the Old World to add to Couronne, the king would obviously make him Baron of it. Especially with so many of Marienburg's defenders away, since the Storm of Chaos led to many of its mercenaries traveling north to fight for the Emperor, and many are still busy cleaning up the left-behind raiders and warbands. Couronne also has one notably weird place: The Landrell Barrow near its southern border. Every few years, exactly 4,373 skeletons and zombies march out of the barrow, patrol a pre-set path, ignore anyone who doesn't attack them, and march back. The count is that precise because they ignored a wandering scholar long enough for him to get an accurate estimate. Inside the Barrow, no-one ever finds evidence of all these dead during the off years, and light doesn't seem to penetrate the gloom. No adventurer has yet been able to solve the mystery of what on earth these undead are doing, or why. Next time: Gisoreux, whose hat is having a ton of hats. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 4, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 19:19
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Night10194 posted:The Duke of Couronne is also King of Bretonnia. I have to wonder if Louen's detractors (he's got to have a few) ever make note of the fact that he rides a bird-cat (Hippogriff) into battle rather than a proper Couronnian warhorse. It's actually a horse-bird, rather than a bird-cat.
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Jul 28, 2017 19:25
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I love the poo poo out of Space Marines, it's just that my interest in milhist makes me loathe the idea of them being used a regular troops (a la tabletop) as they are all knightly special snowflakes (well, past Horus Heresy, anyways). They would be great as operators operating operationally... but basically everyone turns it into Call of Duty, and you neither get sneaky sneak spec ops, nor dueling enemy champions to death as a paragon of humanity. Life's hard. Also, I'm reading Cthulhu Tech on the archive and Jesus Christ, the railroading 
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Jul 28, 2017 19:25
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Angrymog posted:It's actually a horse-bird, rather than a bird-cat. No wonder no-one minds. Catbirds are still superior though.
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Jul 28, 2017 19:28
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Night10194 posted:Next time: Gisoreux, whose hat is having a ton of hats. Anticipating this eagerly.
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Jul 28, 2017 19:43
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Firstborn posted:I remember playing a game of 40k, think it was Deathwatch, and something like auto-fire is more accurate and more damage than single target sort of sniping. There's a technical difference between accuracy (being close to the target) and precision (hitting the same spot on the target repeatedly, but maybe not the correct spot). It was military doctrine for the longest time that firepower either from controlled automatic fire from high rate of fire weapons and/or salvos of projectiles like a shotgun, produced a better hit probability than aimed fire. It also makes sense mechanically for WH40K, where getting close to the enemy and magdumping or melee is preferred to long range combat.
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Jul 28, 2017 19:46
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IRL, the the role of infantry small arms is to pin the enemy in place so that either outflanking or artillery would happen to them. On the other hand, 40K don't care.
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Jul 28, 2017 19:51
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wiegieman posted:Nehekara is the kind of place where as long as you know all 549 forms of proper ancient Nehekaran etiquette you'll be fine, but if you only know 548 then you're gonna get executed when you insult the prince's mother's third cousin twice removed. IIRC, the Tomb King books talk about how this isn't really the case, and Tomb Kings can be remarkably empathic and forgiving. There's a sidebar talking about an Imperial guy and his guide who try to rob a tomb, and the man only looks for books while his guide grabs a bunch of gold. The Nehekarans wake up, capture both, and execute the guide. But the King asks the man why he's ventured so far and risked so much, and the man explains that his wife is dying of an illness no one has been able to treat, and having heard of the wondrous knowledge of Nehekara to stave off death came hoping to find a cure. The King thinks about this for a moment, and orders his Hierophant to help the man look through the royal library and any books he wishes to take, he may. Man asks the ancient mummy king why he's doing this, and the king simply replies that he, too, once had a wife he loved.
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Jul 28, 2017 20:02
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The only good Space Marines are the Space Wolves, because 'Scots-Norse Space Marines who raise Space Dogs so they can ride Space Dogs all the time and give no fucks about the Empire' wraps all the way around 'stupid' and into 'hilarious.' e: And yeah, for undead monsters, the Tomb Kings are honestly pretty decent guys when they aren't trying to become necromantic god-kings.
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Jul 28, 2017 20:05
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The thing to remember about the Tomb Kings is that they're basically people. People put through a completely insane and awful experience, who are also a little confused about how much the world changes whenever they're asleep in their tombs, but still people. Most of them are sane enough, but since they're people they can be either great guys, dicks, or anywhere in between. E: Which is the most hilarious thing in Fantasy: Its Undead factions all have real personalities and they can do what they want, for the most part. The mindless undead not so much, but the things commanding them have goals, hopes, dreams, hates, and loves. Some are good, some are bad, some are in between. Meanwhile, the demon worshipers yelling about how free they are are completely under the thumb of a bunch of dickish gods that get off on making them do whatever they're told. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 20:06
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Before Space Marine chat passes us by, some light crossposting from the Funny Pictures thread:Guy Goodbody posted:Abaddon was fallen as gently caress Das Boo posted:A couple of pages back, but I was super curious about this. hard counter posted:good effort but that's wrong Jisae posted:This is clearly how it works.
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Jul 28, 2017 20:27
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oh no it's Great Fathers
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Jul 28, 2017 20:35
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The Lord of Hats posted:Anticipating this eagerly. I'm afraid it's more 'they're very politically and geographically diverse' rather than 'Fantastic headwear.' At the same time, look up pictures of Bret Knights. They use their amazing, silly helmet decorations to show off which knight is which so the lord knows who to reward.
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Jul 28, 2017 20:38
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Isn't there one guy who has a helmet with another, smaller helmet on top of it?
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Jul 28, 2017 20:38
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Makes me think of the full helms you get in Battle Brothers. "My helmet is a giant pink castle with parapets and pennats."
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Jul 28, 2017 20:40
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Night10194 posted:I'm afraid it's more 'they're very politically and geographically diverse' rather than 'Fantastic headwear.' I had a feeling this was the case, but the other regions (and the previously-mentioned "All peasants must wear hats with a height corresponding to the amount of tax they pay" law that some baron had in place) had me thinking that maybe, just maybe... Eagerly anticipating it all the same, because your write-ups are fantastic. What do you think you'll go to after Bretonnia? (Please be Skaven)
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Jul 28, 2017 20:45
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The Lord of Hats posted:I had a feeling this was the case, but the other regions (and the previously-mentioned "All peasants must wear hats with a height corresponding to the amount of tax they pay" law that some baron had in place) had me thinking that maybe, just maybe... Someone else is already doing Skaven. I'm planning to do Chaos next, because the Chaos book is actually really good...just the subject matter is one of the weaker parts of the setting. It does what it can with it, and it does provide for playing as Chaos, just Chaos isn't compelling enough to play as. It's also got tons of stuff on how to play as Witch Hunters and paladins beating the poo poo out of Chaos, though! It'll be a good chance to settle in and talk about why Chaos doesn't work the way GW wants it to and some alternate ways to do it, too. I'm working so fast because I'm on the last month of summer before I go back to a new master's program and I happen to have a lot of free time at the moment. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 20:51
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So do orcs in Fantasy just bud off of each other like (as I understand) they do in 40k? No ladies, just leaving little bits of themselves lying around that grow up to be big'gunz?
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Jul 28, 2017 21:08
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marshmallow creep posted:So do orcs in Fantasy just bud off of each other like (as I understand) they do in 40k? No ladies, just leaving little bits of themselves lying around that grow up to be big'gunz? Basically yes. New snotlings and goblins and orcs just kind of show up around other orcs without anyone noticing, because spores.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:09
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marshmallow creep posted:So do orcs in Fantasy just bud off of each other like (as I understand) they do in 40k? No ladies, just leaving little bits of themselves lying around that grow up to be big'gunz? Orcs are basically unchanged between the two settings. The difference is they come off a lot better in 40k because they're the only people who are enjoying themselves at all.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:11
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Well, Fantasy orcs tend to be having somewhat less fun, in part because they're actually losing fairly often and in part because the Fantasy orcs have to deal with goblins that actually want things for themselves and with Black Orcs coming in like they own the place.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:17
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Orcs and Beastmen are partly there so you have a reason why absolutely everyone needs an army and why almost every town has a militia.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:23
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Cool. It was one of those things I kept wondering about because a lot of creatures have a clear origin and method of reproduction but orcs and goblins are basically sexless (for the better, because half-orcs business in other fantasy games is fertile ground for lots of uncomfortableness). I guess if you wanted to stop orcs for good you'd have to both kill them all and set fire to half the mountain ranges in the old world, as well as the Border Princes? Yeah, that seems unlikely. I was also wondering if Ogres had ladies too because I've read sources where they clearly have kids and family units but not a momma to be seen, but maybe they're just not that sexually dimorphous; what's important to them is big guts and big muscles, and I can see that working for both genders. It's just lot of Warhammer stuff seems to be really resistant to featuring ladies. Female skaven make out particularly badly. 
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Jul 28, 2017 21:26
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Ogres have very heavily muscled, large and strong ladies that largely resemble ogre men, yes.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:28
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marshmallow creep posted:(for the better, because half-orcs business in other fantasy games is fertile ground for lots of uncomfortableness) Eberron handles it remarkably well, largely by handing off the "savage, warlike outsider" hat to the elves. Orcs and humans get along great and half-orcs are beloved in both cultures for combining the strengths of both.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:37
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Cythereal posted:Eberron handles it remarkably well, largely by handing off the "savage, warlike outsider" hat to the elves. Orcs and humans get along great and half-orcs are beloved in both cultures for combining the strengths of both. As a result: Half-orcs have integrated great into their societies and Half-elves are doing their best to try and establish themselves as a separate third race, calling themselves the Khoravar to try and distance themselves from the miscegenation implied by their name. Since both Helves and Horcs can breed true with themselves.
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Jul 28, 2017 21:46
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