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BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Krispy Kareem posted:

Or if you're transgender you obviously had gender reassignment surgery. If not you're just a cross dresser.

It's a complex subject so I can't really fault a sitcom that can't even manage multifaceted or realistic straight characters, but if you don't know a trans individual - learning about them on TV is very weird.

What Soap dod was pretty progressive, especially for the time, even if it some of it was clumsy.

poo poo...I bet a lot of actors wouldn't have even taken the role for the fear of it loving with their career. I still remember hearing "Brokeback Mountain" jokes 30 years later when that came out. Wasn't AITF the first show to ever show a toilet or something?

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muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005


Leave it to Beaver had a toilet in it but they were only allowed to show the top of the tank and nothing of the bowl.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

BiggerBoat posted:

Wasn't AITF the first show to ever show a toilet or something?

I can say with complete sincerity that a 23-year old joke from The Simpsons finally makes sense to me. :D

Mister Kingdom
Dec 14, 2005

And the tears that fall
On the city wall
Will fade away
With the rays of morning light

BiggerBoat posted:

Wasn't AITF the first show to ever show a toilet or something?

I think it was the first to have a toilet flush.

Lyrai
Jan 18, 2012

I like Family Guy in the point of view that it's being intentionally written more recently as everyone on screen, with maybe the sole exception of Ida, is an entirely terrible person. The show likes to pretend it has continuity, as in characters will actually remember and react to things in the past.
Take into all the terrible things and you have a cast that is entirely meant to be "Look at these terrible fuckers sometimes be right, but most of the time just laugh at their misery." Maybe with a dash of "also please stop loving watching this show, I loving bankrolled the new Cosmos, I want to do that but people won't stop watching this."

Brian having a vomit storm over sleeping with Ida is meant to show that Brian's a loving terrible person. Dog-person-thing. Early on he was Seth's liberal self-insert, and then wait, no, he's just a loving lip service douchebag who's just as bigoted and awful as anyone else.

The abusive girlfriend episode is astounding in how absolutely uncompromising it is about an abusive relationship, capping it off with the literal wish fufillment of "We murdered him and got away with it." In abusive relationships, some people related to the abused will totally blame the abused. It's not right, and it's definitely something to never, ever be shown as "good", and I'm grateful that most of the people I know who did that later realized "no, wait, that's not what I should have done, I was scared and panicking I'm sorry." It's their attempt at justifying the problem that humans just aren't that good equipped to handle - "Why is this person being terrible? What's the reason? They can't just do it...just...just because. THERE HAS TO BE A REASON." Quagmire, Joe, and Peter are heroes only by virtue of the villain doing something so awful and heinous - in every other respect, it's an idiot, a rapist, and a self-centered stalker.

Ida isn't written well, but she comes across as Seth trying to "write a positive character" and not just realizing, maybe...maybe that subject is outside your ballgame. Maybe just don't do that.

But yeah Family Guy needs to die, it's gone on for way too long and I think at some point we're going to get episodes intentionally written to try and tank the show, like the no-cutaway one but not done on a dare.

54 40 or fuck
Jan 4, 2012

No Yanda's allowed
But Family Guy misses the mark on the "everyone is a horrible person" joke. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia does it well. The characters are almost always punished and certainly not rewarded for being totally horrible and are social outcasts because of it.

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Lyrai posted:

I like Family Guy in the point of view that it's being intentionally written more recently as everyone on screen, with maybe the sole exception of Ida, is an entirely terrible person. The show likes to pretend it has continuity, as in characters will actually remember and react to things in the past.
Take into all the terrible things and you have a cast that is entirely meant to be "Look at these terrible fuckers sometimes be right, but most of the time just laugh at their misery." Maybe with a dash of "also please stop loving watching this show, I loving bankrolled the new Cosmos, I want to do that but people won't stop watching this."

Brian having a vomit storm over sleeping with Ida is meant to show that Brian's a loving terrible person. Dog-person-thing. Early on he was Seth's liberal self-insert, and then wait, no, he's just a loving lip service douchebag who's just as bigoted and awful as anyone else.

The abusive girlfriend episode is astounding in how absolutely uncompromising it is about an abusive relationship, capping it off with the literal wish fufillment of "We murdered him and got away with it." In abusive relationships, some people related to the abused will totally blame the abused. It's not right, and it's definitely something to never, ever be shown as "good", and I'm grateful that most of the people I know who did that later realized "no, wait, that's not what I should have done, I was scared and panicking I'm sorry." It's their attempt at justifying the problem that humans just aren't that good equipped to handle - "Why is this person being terrible? What's the reason? They can't just do it...just...just because. THERE HAS TO BE A REASON." Quagmire, Joe, and Peter are heroes only by virtue of the villain doing something so awful and heinous - in every other respect, it's an idiot, a rapist, and a self-centered stalker.

Ida isn't written well, but she comes across as Seth trying to "write a positive character" and not just realizing, maybe...maybe that subject is outside your ballgame. Maybe just don't do that.

But yeah Family Guy needs to die, it's gone on for way too long and I think at some point we're going to get episodes intentionally written to try and tank the show, like the no-cutaway one but not done on a dare.

None of this works with Family Guy because the characters and their relationships with each other are totally nebulous in between episodes and they only play on specific past incidents if they feel like it. Stewie and Brian are enemies in some episodes, best friends in others, totally apathetic towards each other in others etc. and not in any sort of way that works or plays off each other. Even the weird Quagmire hates Brian thing was totally invented on the spot and even after that first episode they didn't always remember it was a thing. You can't add gravitas to a show where characters are just whatever you want whenever

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?
If nothing else, Family Guy has some pretty good one-off gags. The Scrooge McDuck "it's a solid mass!" joke is still funny.

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

54 40 or gently caress posted:

But Family Guy misses the mark on the "everyone is a horrible person" joke. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia does it well. The characters are almost always punished and certainly not rewarded for being totally horrible and are social outcasts because of it.

It's not even that, it's that the ASIP characters gradually change and fit new roles over seasons. The Family Guy characters are just placeholders for jokes or whenever Seth gets bored and wants to do something weird without any regard for the character themselves. It's the laziest show character wise I can think of in terms of actually trying to make them coherent characters, any of them can be switched at any point now

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

54 40 or gently caress posted:

I think Daria aged poorly for me because now as an adult I see a pretty rich teen and it just makes my eyes roll now. Loved it as a kid though

I rewatched Daria a while back and actually I enjoyed it more than I did the first time around, for completely different reasons. Yeah, Daria's an insufferable little spoiled poo poo, but that's the point. Most of the time it's about her gradually growing up and getting over herself.

Some episodes have aged better than others, to be sure. Some episodes (particularly the wacky ones) kind of forget the point and just turn into 22 minutes of Daria smugly riffing without any sort of irony or comeuppance.

YeahTubaMike
Mar 24, 2005

*hic* Gotta finish thish . . .
Doctor Rope

Lyrai posted:

I like Family Guy in the point of view that it's being intentionally written more recently as everyone on screen, with maybe the sole exception of Ida, is an entirely terrible person.

Jillian was nice and somewhat of a tragic figure (eating disorder, dead parents, etc.). Carol was also nice, albeit crazy and codependent, and it still kind of weirds me out that she married her niece's former hookup and no one ever said anything about it.

Kaiser Mazoku posted:

If nothing else, Family Guy has some pretty good one-off gags. The Scrooge McDuck "it's a solid mass!" joke is still funny.

"Amelia Earhart flew a lot of airplanes, except for that one time when she didn't come back" and the whole Kentucky Fried Chicken bit still crack me up.

Straight White Shark posted:

I rewatched Daria a while back and actually I enjoyed it more than I did the first time around, for completely different reasons. Yeah, Daria's an insufferable little spoiled poo poo, but that's the point. Most of the time it's about her gradually growing up and getting over herself.

Some episodes have aged better than others, to be sure. Some episodes (particularly the wacky ones) kind of forget the point and just turn into 22 minutes of Daria smugly riffing without any sort of irony or comeuppance.

I'm still (latently, I promise) mad that they had the whole Daria/Tom/Jane drama. It was so unnecessary.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.
Wasn't Daria just a monotone, deadpan foil who was originally invented for commenting on how lame and immature Beavis and Butthead were? That's all I remember about her anyway, so i never found myself too interested and wondered from the start how she could carry a show by herself.

What was the deal? She just hated everything and everybody and was real sarcastic about it, right?

Lyrai
Jan 18, 2012

54 40 or gently caress posted:

But Family Guy misses the mark on the "everyone is a horrible person" joke. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia does it well. The characters are almost always punished and certainly not rewarded for being totally horrible and are social outcasts because of it.

I'll cop to IASP doing it better, but is it possible to punish/reward characters when every other character around them is equally horrible? What few good characters exist in Family Guy are, as already said, more vehicles for jokes than anything.

Maybe it's all just Seth giving less and less of a poo poo. Even as far back as 2011 he wanted to end Family Guy. I hardly doubt he pays attention to Family Guy any more than contractually obligated to and tells the writers and such to just do whatever, collect a check.

More on the thread topic, my mother watches Walker, Texas Ranger religiously. I have several, several of the episodes etched in my brain because ever since it started airing she never missed a beat. All of them are kind of awkward in the wake of Chuck's severe slant into insanity, not to mention the whole Walker is Jesusman. See also any episode of Home Improvement and Tim Allen.

On Murder She Wrote, do yourself a favor, and look into the later episodes on wikipedia and such, when Fletcher had more creative control of the show. One of them is outright bashing Friends - the title is "Murder Among Friends", and the show is literally called "Buds" - and it features basically an extended Angela Lainsbury Yells At Modern Things. A lot of the later episodes were Lainsbury being upset that her time in the spotlight was fading.

54 40 or fuck
Jan 4, 2012

No Yanda's allowed
She wasn't really like that at all in Beavis and Butthead. She was just one of their classmates. No idea how "let's take this random side character that they make fun of and make her a deadpan, monotonous angsty teen" pitch happened

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
Most spinoff pitches are "what if we take X and then hyper exaggerate it"

ghost emoji
Mar 11, 2016

oooOooOOOooh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzhrCg9To14

This clip gets really weird about a minute and a half in.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


BiggerBoat posted:

Wasn't Daria just a monotone, deadpan foil who was originally invented for commenting on how lame and immature Beavis and Butthead were? That's all I remember about her anyway, so i never found myself too interested and wondered from the start how she could carry a show by herself.

What was the deal? She just hated everything and everybody and was real sarcastic about it, right?
I can't be certain, but I think if you didn't watch it as a teenager then Daria probably won't appeal to you much. Certainly rewatching it as an adult I like Daria (the character) much less. But watching it as a teenager it's just incredibly relatable. It perfectly captures what it's like to be a teenager.

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

BiggerBoat posted:

Wasn't Daria just a monotone, deadpan foil who was originally invented for commenting on how lame and immature Beavis and Butthead were? That's all I remember about her anyway, so i never found myself too interested and wondered from the start how she could carry a show by herself.

What was the deal? She just hated everything and everybody and was real sarcastic about it, right?

Sort of. That's what the character is known for and what she was shown as in commercials (and occasionally in gimmick episodes.) But the whole point of the show is that she's just a regular teen who uses her sarcastic persona as a coping mechanism. Most episodes explicitly paint her as a self-sabotaging jerk and hypocrite who gradually has to learn how to be a human being.

EDIT: which, like the post above notes, resonates with a lot of people because it's such a fundamental part of the teenage experience.

the holy poopacy has a new favorite as of 05:56 on Aug 14, 2017

MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

dolla dolla
bill y'all
Fun Shoe

ghost emoji posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzhrCg9To14

This clip gets really weird about a minute and a half in.

It's weird, but "Frasier is worrying way too much about something" is a staple of the series. Hell, I think the episode resolves with the lady in question getting her own job, is thankful for Frasier letting her speak her mind, and her only regret is that he didn't just come up to her and talk to her about it.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
There is the episode where she flat out admits (through sarcastic confession to an incompetent therapist) that her caustic attitude is a defence mechanism because she expects everyone to get sick of her eventually. (and that her sister, despite seemingly being her opposite, does the same thing except with obsession fashion trends and taking advantage of her own good looks so everybody will like her and she doesn't have to deal with real problems)

Culminating in the final episode where Daria deals with some repressed childhood trauma and realises that raising her has put a lot of stress on her parents, in addition to their considerable actual life problems, and realises she's as much a part of the problem as they are. (and worse, that her parents never openly complained because they accepted it as just a part of parenting)

The take on class and race doesn't go entirely without mention either, especially in the finale movie. (and there's some mention on the culture clash given that Tom is from old money while Daria's family is solidly upper middle-class) There's even some episodes with Daria more or less befriending the black overachieving girl who can't (usually) afford to make stands for her beliefs like Daria does, and points it out.

JediTalentAgent
Jun 5, 2005
Hey, look. Look, if- if you screw me on this, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine, you rat bastard!
A while back someone commented in regards to watching a movie made in the 90s with something along the lines of, "Remember the 90s when characters in movies and TV shows were supposed to feel guilty and be horrible because they had really good-paying jobs and were able to provide a comfortable living for their family because weren't able to spend more time with their family?"

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Or teenagers and young people able to get jobs on a moment's notice.

BioEnchanted
Aug 9, 2011

He plays for the dreamers that forgot how to dream, and the lovers that forgot how to love.
It reminded me of when I was watching an episode of "Everybody Hates Chris" and the mother when faced with difficulties financially just sighs and says "I guess I'll just go down to the Job Centre and get myself a part time job..." Yeah. As if it's that easy nowadays... :smith:

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY
Feb 3, 2006

The South Park/Trump discussion was stupid because there was an episode a season ago, during the election itself, where the message was the media shouldn't be giving Trump so much attention because he's a crazy idiot and might actually get elected and ruin the country.

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

54 40 or gently caress posted:

But Family Guy misses the mark on the "everyone is a horrible person" joke. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia does it well. The characters are almost always punished and certainly not rewarded for being totally horrible and are social outcasts because of it.

They're punished but I'd argue they get away with things far more often than they're punished and often it's the innocent and good people who bear the brunt of their terrible actions. Look at Bill Ponderosa's life before and after he met the gang or the waitress. That's not mentioning Cricket basically being the gang's Picture of Dorian Gray. I agree though that there is a very stark difference between Sunny an Family Guy wrt having all of your cast being horrible people but making it funny and great instead of terrible.

Slime
Jan 3, 2007

EmmyOk posted:

They're punished but I'd argue they get away with things far more often than they're punished and often it's the innocent and good people who bear the brunt of their terrible actions. Look at Bill Ponderosa's life before and after he met the gang or the waitress. That's not mentioning Cricket basically being the gang's Picture of Dorian Gray. I agree though that there is a very stark difference between Sunny an Family Guy wrt having all of your cast being horrible people but making it funny and great instead of terrible.

Bill Ponderosa was a terrible person before he even met them to be fair.

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

Most people's lives they've ruined aren't great to begin with but the gang worsen everything.

54 40 or fuck
Jan 4, 2012

No Yanda's allowed
And every time they try to scam themselves into something positive or come into something positive, they ruin it for themselves. The other thing is things like rape jokes and stuff on Family Guy is "haha rape" the joke with IAS is more like "whoa, Dennis implied he's a rapist and everyone around him is grossed out by it" (see: the implications scene with Mac). It's not a perfect show but even The Gang, who are total shitheads, while using a slur like "tranny" because they're generally bad people, are happy for the character that gets gender reaffirming surgery, gets married and has a baby (with dee even being the surrogate for them, albeit for financial reasons).

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

The only episode I didn't like was the one where they made Dee think she was a famous comedian because it was just bizarrely over the top instead of the usual pettiness as well as the whole storyline was just bad and unfun.

54 40 or gently caress posted:

And every time they try to scam themselves into something positive or come into something positive, they ruin it for themselves. The other thing is things like rape jokes and stuff on Family Guy is "haha rape" the joke with IAS is more like "whoa, Dennis implied he's a rapist and everyone around him is grossed out by it" (see: the implications scene with Mac). It's not a perfect show but even The Gang, who are total shitheads, while using a slur like "tranny" because they're generally bad people, are happy for the character that gets gender reaffirming surgery, gets married and has a baby (with dee even being the surrogate for them, albeit for financial reasons).

Yeah they're all terrible people but they're treated as terrible people within the show. I do like when they make Charlie his denim chicken though.

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

YeahTubaMike posted:

I'm still (latently, I promise) mad that they had the whole Daria/Tom/Jane drama. It was so unnecessary.

Tom was absolutely the worst character to happen to the show just because it was so... unlike the show for it to happen. He's this incredibly down to earth intelligent love interest with no flaws and Daria and Jane start to act like they're in their mid 20s the momet he shows up, it's a really weird tone shift from what I remember. He as a character was totally unnecessary. Daria didn't have to pine after Trent forever but she also didn't have to have a love interest to close out the series, especially not one that conflicted with Jane. It got too "standard romance cliche young adult" by the time the series ended with that summer before college movie

Daria before that was very self aware of who the character was and that she wasn't ever above anyone even if she acted like it publicly. She was just one of those self conscious teenagers who presented herself as cool and aloof to protect herself and the show was pretty open about it from time to time. I'd say the goofy episodes where it's just her and jane riffing on things were needed cause it was still a comedy and not everything has to be teenage life lessons or "we get it" messages constantly

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

EmmyOk posted:

The only episode I didn't like was the one where they made Dee think she was a famous comedian because it was just bizarrely over the top instead of the usual pettiness as well as the whole storyline was just bad and unfun.

It produced this though which is one of the funniest scenes I can remember from the series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKDPLQAwoAg

Dragonstoned
Jan 15, 2006

MR. DOG WITH BEES IN HIS MOUTH AND WHEN HE BARKS HE SHOOTS BEES AT YOU
by Roger Hargreaves

Aesop Poprock posted:

It produced this though which is one of the funniest scenes I can remember from the series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKDPLQAwoAg

That scene was actually from an earlier episode back in season 4. The episode he's talking about is from season 9 "The Gang Broke Dee" and I agree it's really over the top mean.

The Gang Broke Dee - Episode Synopsis posted:

Dee is suicidally depressed after realizing the guys were right about her looks and lack of talent. To snap her out of it, Dennis tries to find a man in her league while Charlie, Mac, and Frank encourage Dee to give her stand-up comedy career another shot.

Dragonstoned has a new favorite as of 14:05 on Aug 14, 2017

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Tom probably should have been way more interesting, he hardly had much of a gimmick to him besides being a male semi-Daria from money, though they did at least do some interesting things with him, mostly in the movies. It was funny with Daria suddenly caught up in very personal and very teenage drama of the kind she usually mocks, and important for her own character development. And was funny in the finale when it's Daria who dumps him, to everyone's surprise.

It's very much a coming of age story in that it's about a couple of teenage sisters starting out quite self-absorbed and petty and slowly learning to be part of actual communities and friends, even with people they don't entirely respect or understand.

For that matter, the keyword 'sisters' brings to mind that it was pretty much unique in being an animated show about a teenager who happened to be a girl, without being an aggressively stereotypically girly character or show. poo poo was BAD for that in the 90s, you'd be lucky if a cartoon could fulfil a quota of one regular female character with a personality to speak of that wasn't offensively stereotypical. For a lot of socially awkward young and teenage boys it probably helped to see a girl who had many of the same problems you did.

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Dragonstoned posted:

That scene was actually from an earlier episode back in season 4. The episode he's talking about is from season 9 "The Gang Broke Dee" and I agree it's really over the top mean.
Dang I guess I just smooshed those two together in my head somehow

54 40 or fuck
Jan 4, 2012

No Yanda's allowed
The Gang Broke Dee is redeemed by the scene where it shows Dennis about to have a total breakdown because he wasn't in on it. Glenn Howerton is really great at depicting that particular brand of unhinged madness that is Dennis

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe

Aesop Poprock posted:

I'd say the goofy episodes where it's just her and jane riffing on things were needed cause it was still a comedy and not everything has to be teenage life lessons or "we get it" messages constantly

True, but as far as less serious episodes go I think the ones that focus on other characters hold up better.

Inescapable Duck posted:

Tom probably should have been way more interesting, he hardly had much of a gimmick to him besides being a male semi-Daria from money, though they did at least do some interesting things with him, mostly in the movies. It was funny with Daria suddenly caught up in very personal and very teenage drama of the kind she usually mocks, and important for her own character development. And was funny in the finale when it's Daria who dumps him, to everyone's surprise.

It's very much a coming of age story in that it's about a couple of teenage sisters starting out quite self-absorbed and petty and slowly learning to be part of actual communities and friends, even with people they don't entirely respect or understand.

For that matter, the keyword 'sisters' brings to mind that it was pretty much unique in being an animated show about a teenager who happened to be a girl, without being an aggressively stereotypically girly character or show. poo poo was BAD for that in the 90s, you'd be lucky if a cartoon could fulfil a quota of one regular female character with a personality to speak of that wasn't offensively stereotypical. For a lot of socially awkward young and teenage boys it probably helped to see a girl who had many of the same problems you did.

I think the main problem with the Tom storyline is that it dragged on way too long. I think it was good that they tried to have Daria tackle a teenage relationship but it really quickly becomes apparent why it wouldn't really work. Tom feels very artificial because the only way they can string a relationship along is to have him be a walking plot point instead of an actual human who would have bailed a couple episodes in.

Blood Nightmaster
Sep 6, 2011

“また遊んであげるわ!”
As someone who essentially was Daria as a teen (and watched it for the first time around then) I never found the Tom stuff overwrought at all; stupid relationship drama that comes out of nowhere feels pretty par for the course for high school. In retrospect I think the whole point of that storyline was to emphasize how not above-it-all Daria really was. Although I did hear rumors at some point that it was also shoehorned in to avoid speculation that Daria and Jane were going to be a thing, which I can totally buy.

Getting back to the thread title: there's a Sex and the City episode where Carrie dates a younger bisexual man that eventually culminates in her writing sexual fluidity off as a young person thing; that always kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Let's not even get started on their reaction to Samantha seriously dating a woman for a few episodes--those really didn't age well.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
I think the problem is more that Tom, as a character, wasn't very interesting.

Reminded of an earlier episode where Daria befriends a weird kid who turns out to be normally homeschooled and seems to have a lot in common with her, and gradually helps him come out of his shell and try regular hobbies, but he ends up befriending some 'normal' teens once they find a point in common (the three dopes who are always fighting over Quinn, natch) and she realises that while she's helped him come out of his shell, they don't really much that much in common, despite him being almost hinted as a romantic interest for Daria.

I think the only LBGT thing in it I remember was the summer movie where Jane goes to an art retreat and ends up getting hit on by a bisexual woman.

Chrpno
Apr 17, 2006

Blood Nightmaster posted:



Getting back to the thread title: there's a Sex and the City episode where Carrie dates a younger bisexual man that eventually culminates in her writing sexual fluidity off as a young person thing; that always kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Let's not even get started on their reaction to Samantha seriously dating a woman for a few episodes--those really didn't age well.

Watching reruns of SATC, it's interesting to see how little content there is in each show. Basically it's a 5 minute vignette for each character about how one of them meets a guy then he does something weird. Repeat for 10 years.

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oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009

This 📆 post brought to you by RAID💥: SHADOW LEGENDS👥.
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Sex and the city is one of the worst shows ever made.

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