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Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
he wouldn't be the first father to miss that his child needs years of extensive therapy

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dudermcbrohan
May 14, 2013
i don't think kiritsugu was a bad dad but he def was a lovely teacher

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
Shiki Ryougi's parents are just kind of there so they aren't bad, but they are kind of a non-entity since their daughter is so messed up.

Ryougi and Kokutou are good parents to their kid though, all things considered, esp. since they're one of the few TM protagonists that have a decently good end with each other and Mana doesn't have any special powers.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Actually Kiritsugu imparted an horrible worldview to Shirou so he's definitely not a good father

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry

Plutonis posted:

Actually Kiritsugu imparted an horrible worldview to Shirou so he's definitely not a good father
100% this. The fire may have broken Shirou but Kiritsugu ultimately did very little to actually fix him.

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008


Gravy Boat 2k
On a drastically different note, I now know why I need more Carnival Phantasm.



I need so much more Taiga in my life. She's so great. :allears:

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004



College Slice
Carnival Phantasm 2: Grail-kun's Day Out

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Shinjobi posted:

I need so much more Taiga in my life. She's so great. :allears:

Jaguarman's was "My Favorite" from the moment I got her to until I got Drake.

Taiga is the best.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

I still say it was a mistake to not stick with the onesie for all Ascension forms and make Yakuza Taiga a separate Alter.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

Not that Tokiomi's a particularly good parent regardless, but where exactly is it stated that he knows just what the Matou's methods entail? The Matou's methods are incredibly aberrant even among magi, and even normal magus houses try and conceal their exact training methods from each other. I've seen people state this repeatedly over the years, but I don't recall seeing anyone actually back it up. If it is directly stated somewhere, I'm actually somewhat interested.

Plus the whole "was born with both incredibly strong potential, and an incredibly unique attribute, but isn't the heir," is a really loving bad place to be in magi society. Unscrupulous magi wanting to stay under Clock Tower's (or the other various groups) radar are generally going to give heirs a bye, but anyone else is fair game for kidnapping and experimentation if they can pull it off.

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic




Let's say he didn't know, would he have taken Sakura back once he found out?

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this

Argas posted:

Let's say he didn't know, would he have taken Sakura back once he found out?

Probably, yes. But not for the reasons you'd think of. While he cares very much about Sakura, it's still in that hosed up magus way where happiness runs secondary to one's development as a magus. He'd be pissed at Zouken for squandering her potential.

FWIW, he probably was raised the same way. It's a bit of A Thing.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
Tokiomi was a mage first and a father second, as all mages should aspire to be according to that culture

Like it's some HP Lovercraft poo poo where the Elder Gods are inscrutable because their morality is incomprehensible. Mages straight up have (or are supposed to have) a completely different set of values from normals.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
They just want to find the Root.

And then smoke it.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

It's very possible that if the methods the Matous (and specifically Zouken) use came to light, they might be hit with a designation as heretical magi, which would kind of make the whole point of giving Sakura to them as a heir for granted protection pointless. In that case he might very well take her back (or not if she's included under the designation at that point, because going against the entirety of the Enforcers is a whole other level of horrible ideas).

Absent that, who the gently caress knows? He's not exactly a main character and it's hard to judge just what his reaction would be because he's got little enough screentime as it is, let alone enough in the vein to definitively judge a case like that. Would he possibly be fine with it excepting the above? Maybe. Would he possibly be outraged because he assumed said hard training curriculum was mostly normal (i.e. lots of studying + whatever) and/or that method is an abomination? Also maybe.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

MonsieurChoc posted:

They just want to find the Root.

And then smoke it.

my Origin is Blazing

e: also I'm going to say I find it hard to believe more people didn't know what the Matou family magic technique is.

Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Aug 13, 2017

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Tokiomi's viewpoint was that sure, he's heard that the Matou magic is terrible and involves dickworms, but all magic is painful and suffering, and it's a chance for Sakura to become a proper mage rather than languishing as a useless spare in the shadow of Rin. And, you know, dickworms can't be all THAT bad, right? Right?

In his mind he was both expanding his daughter's chances for the future, and increasing the chances that one of his family would reach the root. He presumably didn't understand just how much the Matou magic entailed, but we don't actually know what he would do if he knew everything.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

Kyte posted:

Probably, yes. But not for the reasons you'd think of. While he cares very much about Sakura, it's still in that hosed up magus way where happiness runs secondary to one's development as a magus. He'd be pissed at Zouken for squandering her potential.

FWIW, he probably was raised the same way. It's a bit of A Thing.

This is correct. Sakura was given to the Matous largely because it meant she'd become their successor, and would even get a shot at the grail herself if Tokiomi failed.

But as it turned out, all Zouken wanted her for was to produce a suitable successor. Sakura herself was just a piece of meat. Despite all the torture she wasn't actually trained properly as she was just meant to play the part of useful assistant/tool to Zouken, who on top of that spent the better part of a decade trying to break her mind so she'd be even more subservient to his wishes.

For Tokiomi as a magus, this would've been no different than if he had married her off to some other magus family or just had her live out a normal life, which is exactly what he had been trying to avoid in the first place.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011

Kyte posted:

FWIW, he probably was raised the same way. It's a bit of A Thing.

Actually, Tokiomi's father gave him total freedom to reject Magic and to choose to be a normal human anytime he wanted.

YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Aug 13, 2017

BardoTheConsumer
Apr 6, 2017


I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!


Nate RFB posted:

100% this. The fire may have broken Shirou but Kiritsugu ultimately did very little to actually fix him.

I'm not too sure he even could. I mean, the fire really messed shirou up, and it's not completely clear that he ever actually understood how badly it had broken the kid, because of the way shirou has always acted. How is he supposed to know what this kid was like before when the kid himself doesn't really remember?

Granted, he definitely was teaching shirou wrong but weakened as he was he might actually have only taught shirou step one without living long enough to teach him step two, not even realizing the kids body had natural magic circuits.

And he can't have known, since turning your nerves into a magic circuit is "heresy" and there's no reason to do it if you have natural ones, so he must have thought Shirou was a normal human.

BardoTheConsumer fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Aug 13, 2017

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day
There's also the fact that how fundamentally broken Shirou is only truly manifests in extreme situations. Taiga spends the longest time with him and just thinks him normal, while his classmates think he's a little odd because he's very serious guy in the "is always busy and doesn't know how to have fun" kind of way, but people like that exist and he's well liked besides because he's responsible and always up for helping others. Only Sakura has a decent read on his character, but she's broken herself and admires him for the kind of person he is.

To Kiritsugu, it would've all seemed childish hero worship, and it didn't really become an obsession to Shirou until after his death.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
All those good parents are offscreen. Except prisma parent and kiri's mom.

Tsuki Shiki second family, shirou second family (taiga), kiri's parent, kiri's second mom, mana's parent, and that all i can think of for now.

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004



College Slice
Good parents: The Mackenzies.

Bad child: Waver Velvet

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
caesar is a good dad

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer
FGO summer event has literally just introduced Moriarty as wanting to be the bestest dad there ever was.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Bakanogami posted:

FGO summer event has literally just introduced Moriarty as wanting to be the bestest dad there ever was.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer


Best team.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
FGO Summer 2017:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3hggcC10Ks

AtheistMantis
Oct 5, 2014
So if Emiya gets summoned as a Saber, would he just bonk people with his bow?

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004



College Slice
Since he can cast spells I theorise that he can be summoned as Caster too and just throws broken phantasms at people shouting "LIGHTNING BOLT".

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:

AtheistMantis posted:

So if Emiya gets summoned as a Saber, would he just bonk people with his bow?
Nine lives blade work as in Unlimited Code. It is a combat technique that Hercules created from slaying the hydra with bow and arrow. An all-purpose style Shooting of Hundred Heads, which include melee with the bow if needed.

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Aug 16, 2017

Captain Baal
Oct 23, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
It's also possible Emiya as a saber is HF Shiro where his body starts becoming swords.

Or it's Demi-Servant Shiro fused with Muramasa.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
Or that emiya from ilya movie.

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004



College Slice

Captain Baal posted:

It's also possible Emiya as a saber is HF Shiro where his body starts becoming swords.

Or it's Demi-Servant Shiro fused with Muramasa.
I have to believe we'll get a Shirou somehow in FGO eventually whether as EMIYA-Lily or a demi-servant with some notable historical sword-dude.

Waver was there from day one and Rin is hanging out in JP, where's our good boy who just wants to be a hero?

serefin99
Apr 15, 2016

Mikoooon~
Your lovely shrine maiden fox wife, Tamamo no Mae, is here to help!

Captain Baal posted:

Or it's Demi-Servant Shiro fused with Muramasa.

I actually made a Demi-Servant using Shirou as a host, but it was Masamune instead of Muramasa.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Pierson posted:

I have to believe we'll get a Shirou somehow in FGO eventually whether as EMIYA-Lily or a demi-servant with some notable historical sword-dude.

Waver was there from day one and Rin is hanging out in JP, where's our good boy who just wants to be a hero?

I'm betting it'll be HF Shirou as a Welfare Servant for a tie in event to the Heaven's Feel movie.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Dr Pepper posted:

I'm betting it'll be HF Shirou as a Welfare Servant for a tie in event to the Heaven's Feel movie.

I'm really hoping we get a good HF tie in event. They've had long enough to plan for it.

It'll probably just be one stage and a lovely commemorative CE like they did for Apocrypha, though.

Freak Futanari
Apr 11, 2008
A potential HF event should give us a Kotomine welfare

Captain Baal
Oct 23, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
Apocrypha doesn't deserve anything more than the lovely ce it got

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Freak Futanari
Apr 11, 2008
Apocrypha, or at least the anime since i haven't read the VNs, is really good so far.

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