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Platystemon posted:Isn’t an expert witness also required to testify about the coordinate stamps? I think you're giving waaaay too much credit to the average juror, who tend to be idiots. You can testify to this sort of stuff all you want but a lot of jurors are probably just going to tune out when things get technical. Have you ever tried to explain something computer related to someone who self describes as "not a tech person"? It's also much easier to immediately follow up by talking about how the fish-eye lense distorted the picture so there's no way to really know when the landmark was actually passed or something similar which, even if it's not exactly true or doesn't actually make a difference, will be enough to get a lot of people to dismiss it. All that stuff may make total sense to you but I would 100% not bet on your average juror getting it or caring even if they did.
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Aug 15, 2017 17:29
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I don’t think either determination of speed is likely to hurt you, legally. That’s my point. “Speed can be calculated from coordinate stamps” isn’t a compelling reason to buy a dashcam without a GPS receiver because it’s just as possible (and unlikely) that speed will be calculated from the video alone.
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Aug 15, 2017 20:25
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Platystemon posted:I don’t think either determination of speed is likely to hurt you, legally. That’s my point. “Speed can be calculated from coordinate stamps” isn’t a compelling reason to buy a dashcam without a GPS receiver because it’s just as possible (and unlikely) that speed will be calculated from the video alone. The speed stamps make it far more likely an actual inquiry will be made into your speed. Yes, if you were doing 100 in a 25, that's going to be obvious and they may take a look. If you were doing 65 in a 55, that will be less obvious unless, you know, you have a giant stamp that says you were doing 65. Insurance adjusters and cops are generally lazy. They're not going to go out of thier way on a maybe, generally. However, if you have a big stamp that says "hey, this dude was speeding" expect them to proceed accordingly. You're talking effort (even if you claim small, which it isn't because at minimum for a video based speed you need to go measure poo poo) v. literally no effort. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
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Aug 15, 2017 20:31
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I thought we were discussing GPS coordinate stamps, not an MPH stamp.
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Aug 15, 2017 20:38
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Josh Lyman posted:I thought we were discussing GPS coordinate stamps, not an MPH stamp. Are there cameras that record gps values but not the speed? That's less of a bad idea, but still serves no purpose and still makes it easier to determine speed than just determining from video. I honestly have no idea what the value of these gps readings are other than making it more likely you get hosed over at some point.
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Aug 15, 2017 20:41
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I’m not talking about stamping “88 mph” on the video. I’m talking about stamping “48.1516, 23.4269” on the video. If that stamp is followed one second later by “48.1816, 23.4269”, that’s not any more suspicious or more damning than the the speed at which telephone poles pass.
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Aug 15, 2017 20:42
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Platystemon posted:I’m not talking about stamping “88 mph” on the video. I’m talking about stamping “48.1516, 23.4269” on the video. It is more damning because to find out how far the poles are requires going out and measuring them.
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Aug 15, 2017 20:44
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nm posted:It is more damning because to find out how far the poles are requires going out and measuring them. In a world where maps don’t exist. If poles are too mutable or hard to find on a map, use intersections.
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Aug 15, 2017 20:47
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This argument is extremely stupid, like super extra dumb, because on the one hand you've got a bunch of people arguing all the technical reasons why they *think* GPS stamps on your video should be fine, and on the other hand, you have an actual lawyer with experience in this specific field saying they are a bad idea. It doesn't matter if, in theory you could reconstruct or extrapolate your car's speed without the GPS speed data right in the video; we know for a fact, from someone directly involved in the process, that having the speed of your car captured in the frame of your video is a bad idea most or all of the time because it can result in you being assigned fault in an accident that wasn't really your fault, purely due to the fact that you were clearly speeding according to that number on the video. nm posted:The insurance company will use that gps speed to determine whether or not they want to fight you on it. They're not going to hire some expert to determine if you were doing 35 in a 30 for your average case. It's not a goddamn academic discussion! It's just "how things are" as reported by someone who knows. If you ever speed while something bad happens, having your speeding recorded on your dashcam is not in your best interests. Period. Can we move on?
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Aug 15, 2017 20:59
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Platystemon posted:In a world where maps don’t exist. None of that is nearly as accurate as gps readings. I mean what maps is going to have accurate to the foot measurements of this? They're all pretty rough. You actually need to get some dude out there and measure. I know because I've hired this dude. Do you have an investment in cameras with gps readings? I've like actually represented people charged with vehicular manslaughter, so I have some actual experence here. You?
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Aug 15, 2017 20:59
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nm posted:Are there cameras that record gps values but not the speed?
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Aug 15, 2017 21:06
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This map? It’s actually easier to right click and measure the distance between intersections than it is to plot the coordinates and then measure between them. And I’d bet on the the accuracy of Google’s map data over the accuracy of a random consumer GPSr in a moving vehicle in an urban area. The coordinates the GPSr spits out can have 3 m of error in opposite directions on the two points you’re plotting. Google Maps doesn’t have 6 m stretch marks in the ærial photos. I can accept “the legal system is dumb and and it’s like how faxed signatures are accepted as the gospel truth”, but there’s not a major technical difference.
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Aug 15, 2017 21:12
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In a completely different set of circumstances* the red car is a dead car. Keep your eyes open and stay safe out there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeb7FQwZRjU *where the left lane is full and blocking right lane's view to the left, and right lane is empty with the red car approaching the intersection doing the speed limit
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Aug 15, 2017 21:24
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Platystemon posted:This map? Google maps are often old and out of date in suble ways. Sometimes the data they're using is just wrong. I've definitly had something measure out to .2 miles with a calibrated device rather than the .3 google says (which can be a big difference). Yeah, you gps data can be wrong too, but you'll have to go to court to argue that. It is way easier to argue with a prosecutor, cop, or insrance adjuster that thier google map is off than gps data. The goal here is to not get charged or found at fault out of the gate rather than having to gwt lawyers and experts involved. The GPS data is also just more likely to be accepted by a jury, even when interpeted by an expert who explains the issues, than some very acomplished guy who went an measured every uility pole with a calibrated roller. Humans love black boxes. Other people just seem biased and error prone. You know how hard it is to convince a jury that a breath test reading of 0.08 doesn't automatically mean someone had a BAC of .08 or greater even though the manufacturer will openly state a margin of error of +/- 0.01? (The actual error is closer to 0.02-0.04 depending on conditions, but whatever.)
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Aug 15, 2017 21:50
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Platystemon posted:In a world where maps don’t exist. If we all say that you are right, will your humour us and let us get the free advice from the actual lawyer with experience in this specific field? On an entirely unrelated note: nm, will you share some of your many personal anecdotes about people who represented themselves in court, insisted that they knew more than the lawyer or the judge and turned a $15 parking ticket into 10 years on Riker's Island?
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Aug 15, 2017 23:00
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Actually I'd love a dedicated thread to that, since this is.. .you know, the dashcam thread, what for looking at russian crash videos and recommending the mobius
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Aug 15, 2017 23:02
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spog posted:If we all say that you are right, will your humour us and let us get the free advice from the actual lawyer with experience in this specific field? I had a client spontantiously admit to commiting a several year old murder with no suspects on the record. That was fun.
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Aug 15, 2017 23:05
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nm posted:Google maps are often old and out of date in suble ways. Sometimes the data they're using is just wrong. I've definitly had something measure out to .2 miles with a calibrated device rather than the .3 google says (which can be a big difference). Thank you for directly addressing what I was saying. So in conclusion: Stamping the speed right on the video is a terrible idea and no one has ever disputed this. Using coordinate stamps or frame counting in court both require expert testimony and are technically similar. but courts are more comfortable with GPS data (as testified to by expert witness “nm”). So leave the stamps off and don’t give them ammunition.
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Aug 16, 2017 00:34
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nm posted:I had a client spontantiously admit to commiting a several year old murder with no suspects on the record. That was fun. What do you have to do as a lawyer in that situation? I would hope that client attorney confidentiality doesn't count here where you were not representing him for that murder, but I honestly have no idea.
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Aug 16, 2017 04:07
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The Locator posted:What do you have to do as a lawyer in that situation? I would hope that client attorney confidentiality doesn't count here where you were not representing him for that murder, but I honestly have no idea. You may be interested in the Buried Bodies Case, a classic in legal ethics. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 04:29
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Platystemon posted:You may be interested in the Buried Bodies Case, as classic in legal ethics. Good read, thanks!
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Aug 16, 2017 04:51
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The Locator posted:What do you have to do as a lawyer in that situation? I would hope that client attorney confidentiality doesn't count here where you were not representing him for that murder, but I honestly have no idea. I tried to speak over him loudly advising him not do it. Made the record slightly harder to record. As it was open court, it isn't attorney-client, but any other interaction would be if not on the record.
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Aug 16, 2017 04:57
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nm posted:I tried to speak over him loudly advising him not do it. Made the record slightly harder to record. Describe the facial expressions of the relevant parties.
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Aug 16, 2017 05:09
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Platystemon posted:Describe the facial expressions of the relevant parties.  ?
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Aug 16, 2017 05:34
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nm posted:I tried to speak over him loudly advising him not do it. Made the record slightly harder to record. lol.... I assumed it was in private, not in open court!
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Aug 16, 2017 06:19
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I was honestly trying so hard to shut him the gently caress up that I didn't get their faces. I imagine the DA was amused, the judge slowly realized why I didn't want him to talk, and the court reporter was probably pissed that I kept talking over my client. He was recently convicted of this murder. He was representing himself at that time. In the meantime he had been found incompetent to stand trial but was restored to competency fairly quickly apparently. then did the craziest thing you can do: represent yourself in a murder trial. I'd link the case, as it is kinda interesting, but it would dox me a bit more than I'd like to. I was representing him for allegedly stabbing a man with a fork. I think that case just kinda disappeared after the confession.
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Aug 16, 2017 06:29
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How does that even come up in court? "Oh no, I wasn't trying to kill the guy I stabbed with a fork, not like that time when I actually killed this other dude and am totally getting away with it! Good times..."
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Aug 16, 2017 08:26
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I'm guessing yeah, "I cannot have been intending to kill him with a fork because if I had wanted to kill him, he'd be dead... and I can prove it because the last time I wanted someone dead..." etc etc
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Aug 16, 2017 08:48
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nm posted:I was representing him for allegedly stabbing a man with a fork. I think that case just kinda disappeared after the confession. So technically, you won and can claim it as a victory. Related note: I've discovered that in the UK, you can report someone to the police if you have a dashcam video of a traffic offence and they even have an online form to upload it. https://www.cheshire.police.uk/advice-and-support/roads-and-vehicle-safety/submit-dashcam-footage/ The only silliness is that you have to keep the original memory card with the video on it and not overwrite it, but apart from that, it seems a very sensible idea.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:56
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Rewarding people for submitting video would be the best way to encourage it. I had a similar idea today.
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Aug 16, 2017 11:32
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Budgie posted:How does that even come up in court? "Oh no, I wasn't trying to kill the guy I stabbed with a fork, not like that time when I actually killed this other dude and am totally getting away with it! Good times..." He told the court that he felt bad about it and also the CIA made him do it, so could the judge please call obama and make them stop. Did I mention he was found incompetent for a while?
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Aug 16, 2017 14:18
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Oh, yuck. I am not down with prosecuting the mentally ill. 
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Aug 16, 2017 19:43
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nm posted:He told the court that he felt bad about it and also the CIA made him do it, so could the judge please call obama and make them stop. Did I mention he was found incompetent for a while? Ah, I wasn't sure what 'incompetent' meant in that context. That's a little sad.
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Aug 16, 2017 22:52
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Leperflesh posted:Oh, yuck. I am not down with prosecuting the mentally ill. Budgie posted:Ah, I wasn't sure what 'incompetent' meant in that context. That's a little sad. It is sad, but given that he actually did a very bad thing to someone, he really does need to not be free in order to do very bad things to other people.
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Aug 16, 2017 23:12
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The Locator posted:It is sad, but given that he actually did a very bad thing to someone, he really does need to not be free in order to do very bad things to other people. Yeah there's a process in place for securing the mentally ill who are dangerous to others, though.
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Aug 16, 2017 23:17
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Leperflesh posted:Yeah there's a process in place for securing the mentally ill who are dangerous to others, though. Presidential elections?
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Aug 16, 2017 23:19
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Leperflesh posted:Yeah there's a process in place for securing the mentally ill who are dangerous to others, though. In this case, he killed someone. Do you think that it's ok for the victim's family for him not to be convicted for that? That's an honest question that I myself am personally torn on, because in my brain you have to be insane at some level to take another human's life (other than war or self defense), but I think that as a society we have to punish those who commit those crimes. I would like to see those people get proper treatment for their brain issues, but I understand the need for the victim's family to have justice too.
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Aug 16, 2017 23:20
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spog posted:Presidential elections? 
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Aug 16, 2017 23:20
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The Locator posted:In this case, he killed someone. Do you think that it's ok for the victim's family for him not to be convicted for that? That's an honest question that I myself am personally torn on, because in my brain you have to be insane at some level to take another human's life (other than war or self defense), but I think that as a society we have to punish those who commit those crimes. Consider what you really mean by words like "punishment" and "justice." I don't want to engage in a lengthy debate about crime and punishment in the dashcam thread, so instead I'll point you to a resource that surprised me with how well it addressed some of these issues: the Illustrated Guide to Law. For the immediately relevant content, start here: http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=41
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Aug 16, 2017 23:27
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nm, say someone was injured in an accident that wasn't their fault. The injuries took a couple months to heal at which time they were unable to do their job, missed out on a vacation, and were unable to perform their normal hobbies such as hiking, etc. It was also deemed that the injuries caused permanent wear and tear to the body, nothing serious at the moment, but could lead to issues down the road sooner than later. Besides obviously compensation for wages and medical bills, is this a case worth a lawyer to seek compensation for pain and suffering, and all that stuff you can go after?
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Aug 17, 2017 01:37
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