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XK posted:Derek likes chumming the waters. We all know what happens when Goons smell blood in the water. Not sure about chumming the waters, I think he's more like the thread fluffer tbh, or even a mix of both depending on which way things are going. He's got his craft down to an admirably fine art form though, I can't think of any other person on the internet or anywhere who can stir whole communities up and wreak havoc and nerd wars just by existing.
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XK posted:Derek likes chumming the waters. We all know what happens when Goons smell blood in the water.... We go out for White Castle?
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Aug 19, 2017 06:46
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DuckDynasty posted:This is where I may diverge from some in this thread. I view backers as victims through and through. They are in the midst of having what I believe is a massive fraud perpetrated on them. Each person reading this needs to decide if they feel that backers are victims or not. Victims deserve our support and empathy, not scorn and derision. Catching up from very far behind (and it sounds like there's some  to be had in the intervening pages), but I feel like I have to comment on this ahead of time-- by comparing them to OPCA litigants, aka sovcits.  This stems from that probably-well-known write-up by Justice Rooke that's the origin of the term OPCA in the first place (and a good, if long, read if you've got some spare cycles), but one of the referenced cases regarding gurus, tax evasion, and a claim of "I'm innocent because I'm gullible" stood out: Judge Meyer, R. v. Sydel posted:At the tax seminars most of the lecturers used aliases, as opposed to their real names. ... She did not regard this as suspicious or unusual, even though one of the lecturers went by the alias, “Sir Larry Loophole”. How could an intelligent, well educated, worldly, 39 year old professional, not be suspicious? (Emphasis mine). Justice Rooke closes the excerpt with the thought: quote:It appears this is not atypical. The justices of this Court routinely encounter OPCA litigants who seem quite willing to ‘pull the wool over their own eyes’. There's some obvious parallels there, both with Chris "We're not doing what a publisher would do because they're all terrified wusses, I'm not a publisher but I know more about publishing and could make more money than GTAV" Roberts, and a victim-cum-true-believer who's a worldly professional making enough to drop big bucks, yet willfully oblivious enough to ignore every red flag in favor of clinging to the reality they want to be true with regards to tax law (or game development). This is why backers, at this point, can be both victims in a legal sense, and still worthy of scorn and mockery. There's been years of evidence of a project going well and truly off the rails, even just looking at what's coming out of the horse's mouth: quote:If you have followed Star Citizen from our kickoff in October, 2012, you know that the game we’re building today is a bigger and more technically accomplished project than I thought was possible back then. The original crowd funding goal was to raise enough money to deliver regular community updates, access to the multiplayer dogfighting alpha and a single player campaign called Squadron 42. You can see the first goal, which was achieved on 25th of October 2012 here. It’s no secret that I originally thought I would have to build a smaller game first and then over time add features and content to get close to the full living universe that I have always wanted to realize. This community came together and, both through your financial support and your belief in the project, made something incredible possible. You went above and beyond in backing our dream and so we are going to, also. Because of you, we’re building cities where I had hoped for just landing pads, we’re building armadas of starships where I asked for squadrons and we’re populating a living, breathing world in ways I didn’t dare to dream of in 2012. (Emphasis mine, again). Says the man whose last success literally involved a 3rd party publisher showing up, ripping his project out of his hands, enforcing some of those "artificial deadlines" and extracting it from a scope creep development hell. But I digress. Threads hyping SC and banning naysayers were common on SA initially, but as more and more stories came out, more backers started looking at the evidence and saying "wait a second..." Beer went from venerated to estranged and banned entirely because he dared to be critical in public and was visible enough for that to be A Problem. Bootcha invested real loving money, then heard what the thread was saying, looked into it himself, and pulled it asap. Derek Smart('s legal beagle) was probably a large part of why so many people were actually able to get refunds, instead of the dead air, closed-with-no-response 6-month-old tickets and "no refunds unless you've got a really good sob story" responses from CIG. It's been years since that point. Years of rational people capable of changing their mind ejecting themselves from the fringes of the lunacy, while the smaller, denser core of rabid fans cling to each other with all the more fervor. At some point, though, you have to say "Yes, these are grown adults that have to take responsibility for themselves." There comes a point where "But I didn't know" just isn't an excuse anymore, because you should have known, you had it paraded in front of you and you closed your eyes, stuck your fingers in your ears and yelled "la la la" until the bad people trying to pull you out of the well looked at each other, shrugged, and left. But they only went as far as the microwave, to get some popcorn, and to set up some lawn chairs. Some of them have towels and umbrellas ready, for when the well finally erupts in a gigantic backwash from the sewer line and deposits the wet, stinking, and confused well-dwellers on the lawn. Some will probably even help going after the people who dug the well in the first place in court, if it comes to that. But that's not going to make all of the current well residents yelling "THIS IS FINE, AND IF ANYTHING SUCKS IT'S DEREK SMART'S FAULT" any less entertaining in the meantime, and mocking them even provides a valuable public service-- if one of the neckbearded well-sirens manages to croon someone uninitiated close enough to the well to start trying to pull them down into their collective funky embrace, having a bunch of people next to the well yelling "poo poo DON'T DO IT" interspersed with "HOLY poo poo THOSE DUDES IN THE WELL ARE HILARIOUSLY STUPID" helps. I mean hell, the latter is where I found out about Star Citizen in the first place, secondhand. Later an ad came up and I said "Star Citizen, I know that name from somewhere. Wait, poo poo, is that the kickstarter with $15,000 ship packages? Holy poo poo gently caress that." Very few things in this life are as effective at dissuading people from joining organizations as the public mockery of said organization is, and doubly so if the mockery is both factual and hilariously stupid. And, after all, intervention for people in a cult is significantly more difficult and less effective than preventing them from joining the cult in the first place. Ursine Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 06:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jFvAw-WFHE&t=2m50s
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Aug 19, 2017 07:11
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:A really very good post of Gorf-like quality  and 
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Aug 19, 2017 07:16
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:-really long good post- Hell I didn't even get the full picture until I ended up on the SA forums (luckily it was just before it got paywalled, otherwise I would have missed it). The first thing I did when I was looking into SC was go to the RSI website, and at first glance it really looks like there is a game AND that it's almost done! Again, luck for me because it was just before they switched to Spectrum and I was able to find Chris's meltdown about Derek and that rabbit hole not only prevented me from getting scammed but provided the greatest adventure of my life. Now, I don't think you'd be able to find poo poo on there. I guess my point is sometimes it's just pure luck that you aren't the idiot praising a fat lazy abusive failure for his innovative wheel reinventing. Once they get you to make that first payment (which is pretty easy to do if you're a fan of the genre) they're already in your brain rewriting poo poo like loving malware. 
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Aug 19, 2017 07:44
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I just can't get over how after five years, cig produces a video showing you not being able to use the shop, not being able to talk to NPCs, doors flying off into space, and not being able to get up from a chair without a cup of water clipping you through the map and they call it progress.
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Aug 19, 2017 07:47
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Nicholas posted:Aug 18th Schedule Report Nicholas posted:Last year everyone was saying they had simultanious 2.6 and 3.0 branches. they just NOW created the 3.0 branch. First of all: HOLY poo poo. But then, this is what happens when a bunch of newbies fresh out of whatever school or working on their solo projects get hired to work without a project manager (or without any who know what they are doing). But yeah, HOLY poo poo, they were talking about branches last year and they were lying about that too (or more possibly, they had a branch for the fake demo poo poo which they discarded quickly after because it was .. .well badly put together only for demo purposes, and could not be merged back with anything. A sea of red flags and people still trust the thumb-man.
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Aug 19, 2017 08:06
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Corn Nuts posted:
outstanding.
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Aug 19, 2017 08:10
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Sappo569 posted:So uhh did he go blind again... or? According to a reddit post he made he apparently had a genetic disease called Stickler Syndrome that means his retina can just...detach.
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Aug 19, 2017 08:13
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Corn Nuts posted:
it was worth it commando
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Aug 19, 2017 08:25
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Welcome to the
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Crazypoops posted:I guess my point is sometimes it's just pure luck that you aren't the idiot praising a fat lazy abusive failure for his innovative wheel reinventing. Once they get you to make that first payment (which is pretty easy to do if you're a fan of the genre) they're already in your brain rewriting poo poo like loving malware. It's certainly luck initially, sometimes the pitch sounds good and you don't necessarily go digging for stuff off the bat. My only point is that it's becoming harder and harder to not come across something to make you  a bit the longer this goes on, and the only way to avoid it entirely is to either stick to the echo chamber or pretend like every negative thing about Star Citizen that's ever been printed in the last 5 years was actually Derek Smart ghostwriting it, which is L Ron Hubbard levels of "They actually believe that?  " to anyone who's not suicidally naïve.Arms_Akimbo posted:I just can't get over how after five years, cig produces a video showing you not being able to use the shop, not being able to talk to NPCs, doors flying off into space, and not being able to get up from a chair without a cup of water clipping you through the map and they call it progress. In their defense, cleaning up and refactoring legacy 5-year-old code rarely has visible improvements, which is why it's always such a hassle to get clearance from management to do it-- given the option between "we should redo this existing feature properly before it gets to a point where we can't move forward anymore" and "ooh, new feature, just pile it on top of the old poo poo, we've got duct tape to hold it there", most non-developers want the latter until a situation occurs where the former can't be avoided anymore. It's obvious the former has happened and paying that particular piper is...well, this is basically the result. Their codebase had issues to begin with, but they've run the car for 150k miles with no maintenance and trying to fix it after the front's fallen off is always more ugly and time consuming than if you had just gotten the oil checked when you were supposed to. To me the real funny part is thinking about all this with the old 90-10 rule of software development in mind-- 90% of the project takes 90% of the time, then the last 10% takes 90% of the time. It sounds like hyperbole, but the grain of truth is that it's exceptionally easy to get most projects into a state where it seems mostly done, even potentially from the perspective of the developers working on the project. And it's also exceptionally easy to fall into the trap of thinking "oh, that was the hard part". The problem is that the last 10% is "details that aren't necessarily visible and so you don't think about it". Edge cases, input validation, hardware compatibility, screen ratios. Latency, dropped packets, exponentially increasing cross-talk if you're doing multiplayer. Merge collisions, code reviews, rewrites to handle features that are doing things in a different way than you expected because the features are relying on other things that do things in a way it's developers weren't expecting. Any computer science student can bang out a simple 3d platformer in unity by themselves over a weekend if they're sufficiently motivated, but turning it into a game takes a lot longer, and that complexity increases exponentially if you're not the only person doing it. And all of this, all of this, is just for a project that had defined requirements ahead of time. Throwing in more requirements because "well it's 90% done and we've got plenty of money left, so we'll just add this in real quick and--"  you've just restarted all of that and doubled the complexity, you're probably better off scrapping it and starting over now because otherwise you're going to end up with a legacy-level pile of spaghetti poo poo before it's even been released. "Oh we should make this single player game we've been working on an MMO!" "Oh it's a space sim but we should make it an FPS too!" "Oh and we need to add a player-based economy!" "Oh and we need to model blood systems for individual players for realism!" "Oh and the ship thrusters need to individually modify ship thrust!" "Oh and we need planetary landings, but no loading screens!" "Oh and we need ships that require more people to fly than we'll be able to keep track of in an instance, so every ship should be an instance but it can still talk directly with other instances and also the rest of the galaxy, and also that needs to have seamless transitions!" "Oh and grabby hands cargo!" "Oh and passenger ships and drink minigames for them!" "Oh and we can do VR after the fact!" So, bearing all of that in mind, and their current development rate, and current completion percent, if "10% done overall" is where they're falling into a rabbit hole of details that they need to clean up, it's going to keep happening again and again as they turn to other game mechanics that they haven't even started yet and say "poo poo, this is impossible to work as-is with our current tech stack and we need to refactor half of the codebase to make this new thing work at all". And again when they try to increase any of those features in scale to anything close to what they originally promised. I think the literal only thing going in their favor is that PC hardware has started to plateau, and even that's double edged-- they probably won't have the same "better graphics, new engine, clean cup, move down" temptation that killed Duke Nukem, but they also won't be able to rely on more powerful hardware to paper over optimization issues. Anyways I think the tl;dr is "I feel bad for anyone who's stuck doing development at CIG and hope they bail before this turns into even more of a black mark on their resume than it already is".
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Aug 19, 2017 08:26
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Arms_Akimbo posted:I just can't get over how after five years, cig produces a video showing you not being able to use the shop, not being able to talk to NPCs, doors flying off into space, and not being able to get up from a chair without a cup of water clipping you through the map and they call it progress. Six.
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Aug 19, 2017 08:42
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D_Smart posted:Yes I was. And I only ever had to ban two people, Mr Tophat being one of them - regularly. You are a goon now Derek and your parents are real proud of you.
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Aug 19, 2017 08:48
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Rest assured, the coffee in that cup is being realistically simulated with full fluid dynamics.
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Aug 19, 2017 08:54
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quote:This week we have also moved the code onto its own 3.0 branch. “Branching” is when we copy the code from our main repository, where all the developers send their fixes and implementations at any time, to a separate “branch” and start looking more closely at what is changing, to make sure that any activity happening is absolutely necessary for our target build. Copy the code? So, they are most likely using TFS or SVN and branching with large code bases in those VCS are loving expensive, but lol. Branching now, 9 months after this patch was 'right around the corner', wtf. Also, the 'start looking more closely at what is changing' part is sounding really fishy to me - almost as people check random poo poo in, because they have no idea what they should be working on and someone needs to janitor the code base. Corn Nuts posted:
 The Titanic posted:The problem with Derek is that he does great and plays along and is really chummy and seems to not be being old usenet Derek. But then something happens. Dude, this sounds like you are talking about 5 year old kid. Toblakai fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 09:12
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Not every time you can see a 5 year old kid on the internet with such...force. 5 year old kids usually just move on to the next shiny thing
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Aug 19, 2017 09:15
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There's a reason I suggested jingling keys
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Aug 19, 2017 09:36
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Corn Nuts posted:
holy poo poo
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Aug 19, 2017 09:40
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BurtLington posted:Rest assured, the coffee in that cup is being realistically simulated with full fluid dynamics. I got to that ATV and quote:So the frustrating thing about this is that quite a few of those things USED to work before, but are now broken again. basically sums up that entire effortpost I made 
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Aug 19, 2017 09:45
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MarcusSA posted:I'm very curious which roads it would be in the middle of. The one leading to the loony bin and the one they use when they take you behind the shed because you are beyond help.
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Aug 19, 2017 09:46
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https://twitter.com/AirstrikeIvanov/status/898708634783195136
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Aug 19, 2017 09:47
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I must have missed it because it's news to me that some pathetic loser is making weekly forecasts predicting when 3.0 will be finished, with the help of an excessively detailed Google sheet: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6unav3/no_bamboozles_release_forecast_for_august_18th/ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u0o7rUOPwTXsiEdWC7Mkr20byGC3Eze4YVl5DwWftXc Apparently, all of the core tech and network backend stuff is completely done, but there's still a 0% chance of anything being ready for Gamescom. Good news, everybody!
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Aug 19, 2017 09:53
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In terms of game programming, how hard would it be to make a "VR offshoot" of something? Do you have to start the entire code for VR from scratch, or is there a certain amount of work that you've done from the non-VR games that you can 'move' or use for the VR game? I'm just wondering, if SC go VR, if the delays would be massive or incredibly massive.
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Aug 19, 2017 09:55
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Toblakai posted:Dude, this sounds like you are talking about 5 year old kid. People with Autism/Asperger are know to be emotionally as well developed as young children. So they're forever young!
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Aug 19, 2017 09:57
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Toblakai posted:Copy the code? So, they are most likely using TFS or SVN and branching with large code bases in those VCS are loving expensive, but lol. Branching now, 9 months after this patch was 'right around the corner', wtf. Also, the 'start looking more closely at what is changing' part is sounding really fishy to me - almost as people check random poo poo in, because they have no idea what they should be working on and someone needs to janitor the code base. Seriously, at least that Black Mesa mod person that they hired (recently?) would know how to use a CVS system efficiently. I think at some point they had to have used one. But, holy cow, it seems that CIG just now actually starts to develop something and they desperately go through stuff they should have set up years ago. Like 4 years ago. And the way they describe it, also indicates that they marginally understand why they should be doing this stuff in the first place. This is very amateuristic work as far as developing a game is concerned. I mean if I was involved in this project as a programmer I'd be furious all the time (and would be looking for the first opportunity to get out). Hell, people say "don't be mad at videogames", but this is not that. This is being mad at people committing crimes wrt developing a project.
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Aug 19, 2017 09:57
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doingitwrong posted:The way that mo-capped animations and player actions and the world interact should have been worked out *before* any mo-cap was done. From a game verb-perspective, there shouldn't be "a bunch of different counters" there should be a limited number of counter types with pretty tightly constrained rules about where the mobcap actors can exist and where the player's actions can change things. You can dress these counters up in a bunch of different ways so they look different, but they should always have the same functional height and geometry. That way your animations need the least tweaking a cleanup possible when you pull them from the session and put them in the game (and that way you also know what animations you actually need). It's amazing they haven't even looked at how real-world locations handle portable freight, like say, airport check-ins, where there's a clear place for the person to stand, a clear place for it to be delivered to, a conveyor belt that takes it out of sight without any effort from the staff.  And they don't seem to have planned for anything other than what they're currently doing, they're only aiming for a barebones implementation with 1x1 boxes that you place on desks, but no plans for anything bigger, which is going to make it a nightmare to actually flesh out that gameplay - I expect like every other aspect of the game, there will be no iteration and what you get in the patch it's introduced is basically final.
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Aug 19, 2017 10:00
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toanoradian posted:In terms of game programming, how hard would it be to make a "VR offshoot" of something? Do you have to start the entire code for VR from scratch, or is there a certain amount of work that you've done from the non-VR games that you can 'move' or use for the VR game? I'm just wondering, if SC go VR, if the delays would be massive or incredibly massive. Depends on wether there are available libraries for the engine you are using. If there are, getting VR to work can be rather easy. Note that I wrote "getting it to work", which means the camera position is now your head, you can move around and the controllers are ready to be implemented into your game. Of course this doesn't mean that every shader you are using will suddenly also work flawlessly in VR, that you won't face framerate drops that weren't there before, that you won't have to maybe rethink/redo your lightning code to get back to 90 fps. And of course that you don't have to rethink wether your whole game actually works in VR. If your game has you in a seated position like a racing sim, space sim etc., implementing VR with available libraries is a rather straight forward approach. Make sure you can reach 90 fps, overhaul the UI or implement a second, VR friendly UI, curse at yourself for using so much tiny little text in your game which is no unreadable etc. pp., but it's a achievable, and I would go as far to say that these kinds of games can have VR support retrofitted more easily than a FPS game, a RTS game etc. So for Star Citizen it's quite simple: get the engine to render at 90 fps in 4k, fix the "camera is stuck to the eye"-bullshit (IIRC, they already fixed this and called it "eye stabilization" or something like that and basically turn off all the loving animations that will make you sick in VR and completely redo item 2.0-stuff to make it work in VR. Straightforward. Two weeks. E: oh, and fix all the clipping issues that make you spin into space or fall through the floor or your ship...you don't want to experience that in VR tuo fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 10:07
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You're in for a long, looooooooooong wait there, buddy.
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Aug 19, 2017 10:14
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I used to view backers as victims too, until I saw the kind of things they say to each other. I've stopped reading Mrificus's reddit dumps because they're so horrifying; day after day after day of weird psuedo-fetishised dreams of violence against goons; against naysayers; against the ridiculous fantasy of Derek that exists only inside their skulls. All to make the cognitive dissonance go away. I went through the same thing with Ben Lesnick, until his website became public. The hardcore backers on this project have rotted into terrible, terrible people, often with CIG's tacit encouragement because it keeps the pledges flowing. One of the bleak pleasures of this whole mess is watching just how fast and viciously the Shitizens turn on their own for wrongthink. Seeing people sneak into starcitizen_refunds under assumed names because they've realised how quickly the knives will come out if they post under their real names. Watching some of the people who do refund then try to post back in the main community and no no what are you saying I'm not a filthy leaver I'm not with Derek why are you calling...oooooh. EDIT: AbstractNapper posted:holy cow, it seems that CIG just now actually starts to develop something and they desperately go through stuff they should have set up years ago. Like 4 years ago. And the way they describe it, also indicates that they marginally understand why they should be doing this stuff in the first place. Ironically, it's almost as if backer anger and declining pledge levels are forcing the development teams to begin getting systems "functioning" rather than "perfect". I wonder if we've considered the possibility of an internal revolt that gets the game released by sidelining the Crobbler themselves? Loxbourne fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 10:29
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CIG What are you doing https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14774-Classified-Report-Vanduul-Bomber-Identified Staaahp  lol, this looks like crap 
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Aug 19, 2017 10:33
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lol f the concept is another "bomber" because there are so many capital ships to bomb right now, and if there were capital ships in the game they too would spin on a dime and act like a noclip fps player thanks to the fidelity simulation care of roberts
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Aug 19, 2017 10:38
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Crazy_BlackParrot posted:CIG What are you doing whatever lieutenant is responsible for putting out the prose in release from Naval High Command should be demoted horrible
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Aug 19, 2017 11:00
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"Vanduul Bombers were able to maneuver past the station’s defenses and release a devastating mixture of missiles and boarding craft" "All 56 beings aboard at the time of the attack were killed." Not the loving cat, too!
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Aug 19, 2017 11:09
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As long as it punches above it's weight then i'm sold 
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Aug 19, 2017 11:38
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Crazy_BlackParrot posted:CIG What are you doing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC35CGrstAw&t=118s  https://www.streamline-studios.com/about-us/ https://www.facebook.com/StreamlineStudios/posts/941947849184893 AP fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 11:50
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Nicholas posted:Last year everyone was saying they had simultanious 2.6 and 3.0 branches. they just NOW created the 3.0 branch. This may come as a surprise to some, but really this is the best way to work. All your active code should go into one single branch as often as possible, as in daily. If everyone works in different branches, all the code gets out of sync and you end up in merge hell. This exact problem was directly responsible for Illfonic's Star Marine getting shitcanned. What you're suggesting is that every release version be developed in isolation from every other. Well, that's just not possible in practice. That means every time you check in code, you have to cross-commit your changes to every other branch, which is incredibly tedious and time-consuming, and will lead to your programmers spending a huge chunk of their capacity just merging all the time, which causes them to get pissed off, burn out, and quit. I've experienced this first-hand, it's a project-killer. Instead, you all work out of the same branch, and merge constantly. Yeah, the build breaks all the time, but it forces you to keep your code in a working state, and reveals merge conflicts early while the code is fresh in your mind, rather than at the very end. Then, when you are feature complete, you freeze the code, pull a release branch, test it, bugfix, and release.
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Aug 19, 2017 11:53
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AP posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC35CGrstAw&t=118s interesting that Nothing of CIG is listed in their portfolio... I wonder why that is.
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Aug 19, 2017 12:00
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Toops posted:This may come as a surprise to some, but really this is the best way to work. All your active code should go into one single branch as often as possible, as in daily. If everyone works in different branches, all the code gets out of sync and you end up in merge hell. This exact problem was directly responsible for Illfonic's Star Marine getting shitcanned. What you're suggesting is that every release version be developed in isolation from every other. Well, that's just not possible in practice. That means every time you check in code, you have to cross-commit your changes to every other branch, which is incredibly tedious and time-consuming, and will lead to your programmers spending a huge chunk of their capacity just merging all the time, which causes them to get pissed off, burn out, and quit. I've experienced this first-hand, it's a project-killer. But this doesn't sound like what they are doing. Best practice I've encountered and follow in current projects is keep a development branch where all the development work goes into, and where you branch out of and merge back for separate features being developed by sub groups. You merge with the main branch only for critical bug fixes and for new version releases. None of this is even close to what they are saying.
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Aug 19, 2017 12:02
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PC Gamer Article:  
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Aug 19, 2017 12:04
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