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So it turns out I can actually enjoy this show when half of every episode isn't filled with divorce jokes!
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Sep 24, 2017 05:11
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Having just gotten around to watching the episode... it was kind of great. The only criticism that makes sense to me is the way it didn't really get into gender identity vs biological sex. Yeah, that's not what the issue was about, but it was tangentially related. The idea that letting the girl make the decision when she's old enough not being acceptable because "the damage would have already been done" is one that can only really be evaluated by considering what their gender identity means for the child. I also accept the idea that it kind of accepted the gender binary a bit too thoroughly. Was there no way to raise the child in a gender neutral way? The most obvious parallel I could think of was the way intersex babies are assigned a gender at birth, rather than being left as they are to figure it out on their own. Basically the modern version of this problem is that we're stuck on gender binaries, but this episode which seemed to allegorically address why that's wrong... was also stuck on gender binaries. But ultimately those are nitpicks. I'm thrilled that they even attempted to address this kind of issue, and ended up addressing the issue depicted (even if they left out some pertinent real life issues) in a really humane and emotionally resonant way. Bortas's arc this episode was great. Moclan society was really interestingly built up in such a short episode. Industrial planet, enforced mon-gender, no-nonsense weapons manufacturers... who value stories. Bortas is deeply affected by a human children's story, and while it is a pretty funny scenario on the face of it, it ends up characterizing him and his people in a way that gets you further into this society, rather than being a silly gag that takes you out of things. And it's paid off when the literary giant of their society turns out to be a woman. Very few episodes in I already get the impression that there's a really solid sense of what all these worlds are supposed to be like. The red guys from episode 2 who look down on the Union species, but respect the robot are another example. Not a complicated one, but there's definitely the sense that here's an idea, it makes sense, and it's depicted well and important to the plot. I was holding off getting too invested in the series until this episode based on the reviews and my preconceptions about MacFarlane, but having done a pretty drat solid Social Issues episode, and generally having solid characters, I feel I can actually relax and just enjoy this good show. It can always gently caress up and turn terrible, but I'm not actively worried about that anymore. Fake edit: Kibayasu posted:So it turns out I can actually enjoy this show when half of every episode isn't filled with divorce jokes!
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Sep 24, 2017 05:15
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The conflict in this episode was really good, but we're all in agreement that Grayson's arguments were embarrassingly stupid, right? The writers came up with a good plot but were really lazy with fleshing it out.Flobbster posted:I'll say it: The Orville is the more progressive than every previous Star Trek series Jesus christ reel it in a little. Between the jelly monster sprouting a dick and Grayson taking 90% of the blame for the divorce (but seeming to pine for the captain), maybe we should give it a little more time before worrying about this
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Sep 24, 2017 06:02
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WHY BONER NOW posted:The conflict in this episode was really good, but we're all in agreement that Grayson's arguments were embarrassingly stupid, right? The writers came up with a good plot but were really lazy with fleshing it out. Again, not so lazy that they don't address it in the episode and lose the case as a direct result
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Sep 24, 2017 06:50
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Rocksicles posted:That was literally in the last century. And I'm old. Your point?
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Sep 24, 2017 06:58
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Kibayasu posted:So it turns out I can actually enjoy this show when half of every episode isn't filled with divorce jokes! It's a good thing that no episodes thus far have neared that, huh? I read it as a kind of like Troi and Riker's thing, where it they used it in TNG to establish a past between them, (similar in some ways to Crusher and Picard, too) to give you a bunch of backstory at once that your mind could fill in the blanks with. They didn't harp on Troi and Riker being exes or Picard feeling guilty for or Crusher resenting Picard getting Jack killed, after all.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:03
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Chop Sunni posted:Again, not so lazy that they don't address it in the episode and lose the case as a direct result I mean I guess, there's a term for that "we know this is poo poo but since we acknowledge it, you can't criticise us" thing but I don't remember if it's lampshading or gaslighting or whatever. Still should've been handled better imo. Based on McFarlanes characters reaction, he thought the case was a slam dunk, but the final argument was lazy as poo poo too. The boxing match was incredibly lazy as well, why the hell didn't they pick some kind of combat sport from bortusworld? It would give the audience a peek at his culture and having him beaten at his own game by a girl would've driven the point better. Instead they pick an old earth sport neither have been alive to see. Come on! I want to like this show but there are some missed opportunities that I hope the writers recognise
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Sep 24, 2017 07:40
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It's pretty clear that Seth McFarlane (who wrote the episode) thought they were good arguments.
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Sep 24, 2017 09:30
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Comrade Fakename posted:It's pretty clear that Seth McFarlane (who wrote the episode) thought they were good arguments. And it's pretty clear you're posting in this thread just to complain about the show for having the audacity to have been created by Seth MacFarlane. Show us on the TV Guide where the comedian touched you.
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Sep 24, 2017 10:51
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Comrade Fakename posted:It's pretty clear that Seth McFarlane (who wrote the episode) thought they were good arguments. Nope. Not at all.
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Sep 24, 2017 10:59
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Kazinsal posted:And it's pretty clear you're posting in this thread just to complain about the show for having the audacity to have been created by Seth MacFarlane. He woke up one morning to a pilot going "Giggity giggity"
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Sep 24, 2017 11:15
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Just watched this episode and think this is a really confused show. So much of the episode was about 20th/21th century western sexes/gender relations, but the alien culture is never actually explained enough to make me relate to it. The impression I got is that Maclan society used to have two sexes, but then combined the two into one through generic engineering and this new sex adopted a male inspired patriarchal culture? So, what are the actual consequences of being born with half a sex/old female? You are just physically weaker, have tits for some reason and a harder time to fit into society due to your looks? That's not at all what being a woman is about. A lot of our modern gender relations are due to things like women being the only sex that can bear children, us mostly only being attracted to one sex, etc. If you take that out of the equation, the whole dynamic changes completely. Then you only have humans, some tall, some with tits. That's completely missing what produced our patiarchial society in the first place. Like, I remember there is some TNG episode with the exact same plot, but it actually made sense. The aliens combined two sexes into a new androgynous one and the conflict wasn't some nonsense bullshit about women being born weaker or dumber, it was much more explicit about conformity and appearance. Also, I don't remember Picard or whoever making a retarded argument about how some alien species have physically strong woman, therefore, ipsum lorem, all women should be treated equally by society. Gonna go watch the rest of the episodes now. This is actually not that horrible. GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 11:33
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Comrade Fakename posted:It's pretty clear that Seth McFarlane (who wrote the episode) thought they were good arguments. I read it as 'these are the kinds of arguments Star Trek characters would make' It's a pretty good show. Even if I expected MacFarlane to thoroughly understand modern sex/gender theory and politics, I don't think he'd be able to repackage it in to a 40 minute episode of TV. Overall it tried to have its heart in the right place, it didn't lazily go with 'both sides' South Park logic, and had a pretty bitter ending. It's a shame Fox will probably cancel the show once it realizes they don't have a MacFarlane comedy and instead a love letter to TNG.
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Sep 24, 2017 12:26
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Jesus christ reel it in a little. Between the jelly monster sprouting a dick and Grayson taking 90% of the blame for the divorce (but seeming to pine for the captain), maybe we should give it a little more time before worrying about this In no way does she take 90% of the blame, she has been very clear that Mercer's workaholism severely strained their relationship.
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Sep 24, 2017 12:52
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Emerson Cod posted:I was kind of hoping when they did the scan they would have found out that half of the civilization was born female. It was a very literal homage to The Measure of a Man and while it definitely misstepped on quite a few things it was actually pretty decent. I was surprised. That's where I thought they were going as well- that they'd find that there were thousands of Maklans who never had sex-reassignment, secretly living in fear.
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Sep 24, 2017 12:55
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Powered Descent posted:
I was assuming it's more that Moclans (Maklans? do they have a Memory Alpha for this show yet?) wouldn't bother looking for something that they know just doesn't exist and all right minded Moclans take care of when their kid is born. It's kind of like how some people treat LGBT issues as if they're unique to the last 30-40 years and therefore LGBT people are themselves just started existing in the last half-century.
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Sep 24, 2017 13:08
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:In no way does she take 90% of the blame, she has been very clear that Mercer's workaholism severely strained their relationship. It's clear he spent the majority of his career trying to get a ship but he just wasn't talented, smart enough, or competent enough. He ruined what was clearly a loving relationship by chasing a dream he was always going to lose. In the end I think it's less that she's blaming herself for putting the bullet in the head of a dying relationship and more that she pities him as much as she loved him. She couldn't make him a whole person through a relationship but she could get the Union to give him what would, a captain's chair.
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Sep 24, 2017 13:51
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:(Maklans? do they have a Memory Alpha for this show yet?) It's Moclans (I watch with closed captioning on). The planet is Moclus.
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Sep 24, 2017 13:58
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vermin posted:It's clear he spent the majority of his career trying to get a ship but he just wasn't talented, smart enough, or competent enough. Wait, what? Doesn't the admiral say in the very first episode that he was a rising star and only got sidelined for command because he turned into a total gently caress up after his divorce? Edit- Yeah, I just double checked and this is a total misread of Mercer's character. When the admiral is giving him command of the Orville he tells him that everyone was sure he'd be in command of a heavy cruiser before 40 until he went off the deep end over the last year. Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 14:24
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Yeah the admiral does say that. I don't think the show has made up its mind on that yet.
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Sep 24, 2017 14:29
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Comrade Fakename posted:It's pretty clear that Seth McFarlane (who wrote the episode) thought they were good arguments. There's a difference between the writers thinking the arguments are good, and the writers knowing those characters who have no experience in law thinking those arguments are good. Or do you also believe that Seth MacFarlane thinks the capital of the United States is Nabisco, since that was written into the show? The writers acknowledge that the arguments are bad by having the Moclans say they are bad, and deciding in favor of the state. You would have a valid argument if they brought in a prominent lawyer from the Union to help on this case, but they didn't. They gave the job to the first officer who only learned about law for a year.
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Sep 24, 2017 15:05
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:In no way does she take 90% of the blame, she has been very clear that Mercer's workaholism severely strained their relationship. Yeah but she's childish and petty about it at every turn. You can't say "I made a huge mistake and I'm so sorry can you forgive me?" and then turn around and three seconds later shift the blame for the thing you just apologized for. I'm glad that the show head faked them getting back together in the second episode and showed us they don't get along very well in a domestic situation.
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Sep 24, 2017 15:55
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Yeah the admiral does say that. I don't think the show has made up its mind on that yet. I think it has, it is just he has been out of it for so long he is rusty and unmotivated up until he starts dealing with his ex properly. He essentially dropped to the sidelines for years and is slowly remembering how to captain again.
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Sep 24, 2017 16:13
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:It's a good thing that no episodes thus far have neared that, huh? I'm obviously exaggerating. But there were two very substantial scenes in the second episode devoted entirely to the topic and the pilot could barely go a scene without one of them making a snippy comment. In this latest episode there was 1 joke that I noticed.
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Sep 24, 2017 16:27
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Paradoxish posted:Wait, what? Doesn't the admiral say in the very first episode that he was a rising star and only got sidelined for command because he turned into a total gently caress up after his divorce? poo poo, that's what I get for only watching the episodes once. And only really half watched that that. I completely forgot he was a rising star. I just remember he was a workaholic and that he always wanted command but never got it so I just assumed the Union thought he was inherently wrong for the position for his failings. vermin fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 16:35
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Hey I just thought of something. In the previous episode, the said that the Calivan buoy scans the target ship's computers to create a believable hologram. So, somewhere in the computers is a comment that Mercer is actually worried about his colon.
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Sep 24, 2017 17:08
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Gynovore posted:Hey I just thought of something. In the previous episode, the said that the Calivan buoy scans the target ship's computers to create a believable hologram. So, somewhere in the computers is a comment that Mercer is actually worried about his colon. I smell a future episode.......(fart joke)
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Sep 24, 2017 17:22
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vermin posted:poo poo, that's what I get for only watching the episodes once. And only really half watched that that. Eh, I wasn't sure either when I made that post. I think the problem is that the first episode rushed through establishing anything about these characters way, way too fast. The opening scene being Grayson cheating on Mercer (both characters we know literally nothing about at this point) was a really weird choice. Then the scene immediately following that jumps a year forward and it's just one giant exposition dump about Mercer.
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Sep 24, 2017 17:23
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vermin posted:poo poo, that's what I get for only watching the episodes once. And only really half watched that that. It sounds pretty bad. I think the admiral said he was put on report six times for showing up hungover. And I bet that coworkers would have understood the first few times and not reported him, so probably double digit showing up drunk/hungover episodes. Not something you want in your resume. Second episode establishes that he drinks in the morning when he's in a bad mood and doesn't have to do anything. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 17:23
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Gynovore posted:Hey I just thought of something. In the previous episode, the said that the Calivan buoy scans the target ship's computers to create a believable hologram. So, somewhere in the computers is a comment that Mercer is actually worried about his colon. They probably scanned all his old skype chats with his parents where they no doubt had the exact same conversation several times. My parents always complain about the same drat things every time I ring them.
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Sep 24, 2017 17:49
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Every man over 40 is worried about their colon.
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Sep 24, 2017 18:41
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah but she's childish and petty about it at every turn. You can't say "I made a huge mistake and I'm so sorry can you forgive me?" and then turn around and three seconds later shift the blame for the thing you just apologized for. Sure you can, people do it all the time. She acknowledges she made a mistake and wants forgiveness, but also expects and hopes he will do likewise for his own part in the mess. She's neither taking the full blame nor shifting it all to him, she's just hoping for a little reciprocation, and when she doesn't get it she (as people do) gets upset.
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Sep 24, 2017 18:44
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I liked the detail of the final Moclus scene having paintings of their planet. As ugly landscape as it supposedly is, they still appreciate art and art of it.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:13
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In the next two-part Orville episode premiering tonight, Ice T and Soledad O'Brien lead an investigation into the unsolved murders of hip hop legends Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:13
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vermin posted:In the next two-part Orville episode premiering tonight, Ice T and Soledad O'Brien lead an investigation into the unsolved murders of hip hop legends Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls. Already a time travel episode? Actually, a time travel episode would have a ton of great jokes.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:15
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I love Star Trek and I've heard a lot of good things about this show. But I'm hesitant. I like humor in my sci-fi TV, so that's not the issue. I mean, Star Trek was often funny. But I think everything else Seth MacFarlane has done is shrill, wretched poo poo, including American Dad. I'm going to watch this anyway when I get a chance, but I just want to know how prevalent or reined in are the MacFarlane-isms exactly? I'm not going to stop watching if he talks in a funny Peter Griffin voice or some poo poo, I just want to know what's up, that's all.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:00
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There are actually way fewer jokes than you would imagine, and the McFarlaneisms are kept to a minimum. Please do not read this post as an endorsement of this show.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:02
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The pilot has some rough moments humor-wise but it gets markedly better over the next two episodes.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:06
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The closest contemporary comparison I'd have for the tone of the show as far as the humour goes is probably something like agents of shield.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:08
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It occasionally reaches a bit too far for a joke, but it isn't comparable to the Macfarlane cartoons where everything is built around forcing a punchline. I went in expecting the worst and while I'm not gonna make space on my calendar every week for this show, my verdict is quite watchable if I'm around anyway on a Thursday night.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:17
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