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SpacePig posted:I'm sure that's part of it, but my guess is that it's probably more because Skylar was a woman. Personally, I always put it down to Walter being the protagonist. If the show had been from Skyler's perspective I imagine that the reaction would've been the reverse as we see her trying to get ahold of her husband multiple times over and over throughout the day and getting more frazzled as he starts getting more and more closed off from her as well.
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Sep 29, 2017 17:11
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Last Chance posted:What? Walter Jr.: Dad where'd all this money come from? Walter W:  Anonymous donators?
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Sep 29, 2017 17:11
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RareAcumen posted:Personally, I always put it down to Walter being the protagonist. If the show had been from Skyler's perspective I imagine that the reaction would've been the reverse as we see her trying to get ahold of her husband multiple times over and over throughout the day and getting more frazzled as he starts getting more and more closed off from her as well. It's kind of like Dory from the Nemo movies - in the first one her scatterbrained nature can be a bit irritating at times, with her constantly getting in the way and being a source of frustration - however in the second movie we see what it's like from her perspective, so the frustration comes across in a different way. It goes from "Dory! What the hell! What do you do?  " to "Oooh, Dory you were so close to a thing before it triggered again at the worst possible time... Sorry. "
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Sep 29, 2017 17:41
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as far as BB goes it also helps to keep in mind that walter was undergoing an immense transformation during the course of the show; if he were as loathsome in the early seasons as he was in the later i doubt there would have been such stark disapproval of skyler and maybe the show wouldn't have even taken off with that kind of lead a lot of his earlier decisions reflected the man he used to be in that walter genuinely just wanted to leave something for his family once learning of his costly terminal illness, he didn't know he liked the thrill of crime & danger, the swagger of being a crime boss or the empowerment of being a terrifically influential underground figure until he experienced those things in his otherwise marginalized life, even then they were largely acquired tastes he didn't care for at first, and only then did they sort of overshadow his original feelings for his family and become its own monster; early on tho skyler reasoned that walter didn't care about his family and, dramatically, that seemed to be at odds with the sacrifices walter was undertaking on their behalf or the person he was back then so it makes sense that she wouldn't have been a fan favorite taking it to outright hatred tho is too far and probably only happened to basement dwellers who at least had to eat their words in the later seasons
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Sep 29, 2017 18:14
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Wasn't there a point where Walter almost gave it all up but Skyler did something stupid and cruel? I can't remember the details except it was pretty lovely. Although that still shows a double standard because Skyler isn't even allowed one gently caress up, but Walter devastated lives continuously throughout the show independent of what he was doing with drug use.
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Sep 29, 2017 18:33
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hard counter posted:as far as BB goes it also helps to keep in mind that walter was undergoing an immense transformation during the course of the show; if he were as loathsome in the early seasons as he was in the later i doubt there would have been such stark disapproval of skyler and maybe the show wouldn't have even taken off with that kind of lead
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Sep 29, 2017 19:13
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Honk was only grating at the start when he was the bumbling cop and Breaking Bad was a high-concept black-comedy, then he shot Tuco, got PTSD, and underwent real character-development. Saul was brought in to fill in his comic-relief spot.
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Sep 29, 2017 19:19
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Tiggum posted:He was. He never gave a single poo poo about his family or he would have just taken the money from his rich friend. It was absolutely 100% all about him from day one and he never changed one bit. That's the thing I don't get about that show - it's supposed to be about how he slowly becomes this terrible person, but he was a loving shithead from episode one and I don't know how that could have been any clearer. It's the facade he puts on, I think. Even if he's cooking meth, and doing it for selfish reasons, he's still this feeble, cancer-ridden man that everybody feels bad for. Then they stop showing people feeling bad for him, and he drops the feebleness act, and even though nothing has changed, it's just more obvious at that point.
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Sep 29, 2017 19:27
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Tiggum posted:He was. He never gave a single poo poo about his family or he would have just taken the money from his rich friend. It was absolutely 100% all about him from day one and he never changed one bit. That's the thing I don't get about that show - it's supposed to be about how he slowly becomes this terrible person, but he was a loving shithead from episode one and I don't know how that could have been any clearer. He absolutely gave a poo poo about his family, he just was too prideful to want them to feel beholden to the people he felt stabbed him in the back. The whole show is about how he has so little self pride in the beginning that high schoolers are walking all over him, and by the end he sees himself as some untouchable kingpin even though in reality his whole life is in shambles. One of the last episodes is titled Ozymandias. It's pretty much the opposite of subtle.
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Sep 29, 2017 19:32
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People also lost their poo poo in Anna gunn after she put on weight in season four, even though she had seriously just had a baby. A lot of the hate towards her was totally misogynistic. But yeah from the start Walt has a HUGE ego, and it's evident that he can't stand the idea of anyone knowing he isn't a genius. Plus going in over a second rewatch you notice a lot more of how he is just so abusive to Jesse off the hop. Such a good show though, does not belong here. I don't find Archer aged well, but that's largely due to the fan base over quoting it.
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Sep 29, 2017 20:31
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I was surprised on the first watch that Walt nearly commits marital rape in episode 8 and its never overtly mentioned again. Dude was bad from the start.
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Sep 29, 2017 21:09
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RareAcumen posted:Walter Jr.: Dad where'd all this money come from? And Walter White was always a turd. He walked away from Grey Matter over something that was probably stupid, and probably hosed up every other opportunity he had in his field until the only gig he could get was teaching high school and scrubbing hubcaps.
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Sep 29, 2017 21:09
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54 40 or gently caress posted:People also lost their poo poo in Anna gunn after she put on weight in season four, even though she had seriously just had a baby. A lot of the hate towards her was totally misogynistic. But yeah from the start Walt has a HUGE ego, and it's evident that he can't stand the idea of anyone knowing he isn't a genius. Plus going in over a second rewatch you notice a lot more of how he is just so abusive to Jesse off the hop. Archer's weird identity crisis-styled prolonged death where they're throwing new ideas at the wall each season to figure out if they can salvage the show somehow is kind of fascinating from a meta-sense. It's not often that you see the spasming death rattle of a popular show drawn out like this.
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Sep 29, 2017 21:09
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I really loving loved Dreamland tho. Then again, that's cause I'm a massive Noir Nerd, and got all the loving references. ALL OF THEM
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Sep 29, 2017 21:38
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Yeah I'm fascinated by the idea of a show that just throws the same cast into a wacky new setting each season and goes with it. I just wish it wasn't archer that did it because I am indeed burned out of that one.
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Sep 29, 2017 21:48
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Tiggum posted:He was. He never gave a single poo poo about his family or he would have just taken the money from his rich friend. It was absolutely 100% all about him from day one and he never changed one bit. That's the thing I don't get about that show - it's supposed to be about how he slowly becomes this terrible person, but he was a loving shithead from episode one and I don't know how that could have been any clearer. i think you're confusing a character having influential flaws grounded in their backstory that mutate into something more vicious later on with always having been a monster as tho there were nothing else to the character either in their original or final form; these characters aren't 1-dimensional at any point in their lives, they have internal conflicts when different aspects of their personality oppose and over the show's course there's an ebb and flow of which traits rise to prominence to determine what wins in that internal conflict to eventually influence a character's actions and motivations - this is the change the show is all about - and it does that change without having to invent wildly new personality traits for a person to suddenly develop; alongside the fragile ego the feelings walter has for his family are also one of those things that ebbs and flows but it never disappears even when he's at his most monstrous, he breaks down watching hank die despite their mutual antagonism, he makes risky calls just to hear his kids' voices and his one thought left in the world when he had nothing left was finding a way for the money to reach his family, for e.g.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:24
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Krispy Wafer posted:Wasn't there a point where Walter almost gave it all up but Skyler did something stupid and cruel? Was it when Skyler gave the money to Ted?
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Sep 29, 2017 22:26
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[quote="“bean_shadow”" post="“476898334”"] Was it when Skyler gave the money to Ted? [/quote] I don't remember money, but I recall the affair. So yeah, that's probably it. Skyler also got grief about the car for Walt Jr. She was the show killjoy or the adult in the room, depending on your viewpoint.
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Sep 30, 2017 01:52
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Inspector Gesicht posted:I was surprised on the first watch that Walt nearly commits marital rape in episode 8 and its never overtly mentioned again. Dude was bad from the start. RareAcumen posted:Personally, I always put it down to Walter being the protagonist. If the show had been from Skyler's perspective I imagine that the reaction would've been the reverse as we see her trying to get ahold of her husband multiple times over and over throughout the day and getting more frazzled as he starts getting more and more closed off from her as well. Walt was terrible and there is no possible way to justify hating Skyler for responding to his shittiness. She did smoke during her pregnancy though which ain't good but lol her husband is literally an emotionally distant, drug dealer who really doesn't give a poo poo about her or her son's well being as long as he gets RESPECT. Oh god, I sound like Pick.
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Sep 30, 2017 02:34
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Sarcopenia posted:Yes. If they'd put her as a protagonist those same people would complain that he show is focusing on this person's boring life instead of on her cool husband and his neato drug business.
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Sep 30, 2017 02:50
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hard counter posted:taking it to outright hatred tho is too far and probably only happened to basement dwellers who at least had to eat their words in the later seasons The internet isn't known for eating its words, and I swear most of the time when I see Breaking Bad brought up online it's in terms of "that show was so good, Walt is a badass and Skyler was such a bitch lol". It's depressing.
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Sep 30, 2017 03:02
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If they'd put her as a protagonist those same people would complain that he show is focusing on this person's boring life instead of on her cool husband and his neato drug business.
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Sep 30, 2017 03:11
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Sarcopenia posted:I don't think I get what you are trying to say here ? Kind of a verbose form of  ?
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Sep 30, 2017 03:26
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Your Computer posted:The internet isn't known for eating its words, and I swear most of the time when I see Breaking Bad brought up online it's in terms of "that show was so good, Walt is a badass and Skyler was such a bitch lol". It's depressing. I think it's because a lot of people mistake 'protagonist' for 'automatic good person.' And Walt isn't: for someone concerned about his family's welfare, taking their savings and buying a mobile lab is pretty loving lovely to start with. He even admits it at the end when he says it was all about him: it was, and it wasn't about curing his cancer or caring for his family, it was to be the big man he always wanted to be but never had the opportunity until he thought he had nothing to lose...even if it leaves his family as social pariahs and himself as being remembered as a violent druglord. And you see a lot of that in shows nowadays as well where disturbing people are given one hell of a pass because the show features them and the audience gets to know them more and more. TV storytelling has reached quite a new level, and it's stretching a lot of people who never put the thought into the shows they watched into going down some really weird mental paths. So instead of saying 'I should examine this more and more' they come off as thinking 'this is now okay.' One could make a valid point for this mentality becoming a reason why America is in the political state it is now, but that's beyond this thread's mandate. Needless to say, with Breaking Bad, you can see that Walt's behavior is not only made okay by his role as the lead but actively defended to the point of people relating to it far too much. It really makes me wonder how this will be seen as time goes on as people are either forced to examine TV shows in a deeper light or simply don't and we hit a point where some people really cannot deal with deep meaning in their TV and end up going down some really, really, REALLY dark paths. And in a way, this isn't anything really new. As we've discussed before, Married With Children dealt with this and eventually became consumed with it to the point where the Bundys weren't seen as losers but as relatable people that reflected a part of America that many of us don't see. Even Seinfeld had trouble breaking free from this when their finale revealed that maybe we shouldn't find any sort of relation with these people and their antics. For some reason a lot of people believe that the Glass Teat mentality of TV that Harlan Ellison used to write at length about cannot change so when it did the stretch of turning poo poo timefiller into an artform in its own right -- one that changed its own nature in such a subtle manner that people still have problems recognizing it -- we're still having trouble relating to it because it's not mindless enough. Quite an interesting situation, really.
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Sep 30, 2017 05:55
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Well, people who do dumb and bad things and make bad decisions based on poorly thought out ideas and whims are still pretty drat relatable.
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Sep 30, 2017 06:10
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The early pages of this thread don't age well because the same episodes of the same shows keep coming up every 5 or so
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Sep 30, 2017 06:13
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help, I can't watch a show without obsessing over what I would do in a characters place
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Sep 30, 2017 06:59
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food court bailiff posted:He absolutely gave a poo poo about his family, he just was too prideful to want them to feel beholden to the people he felt stabbed him in the back. The whole show is about how he has so little self pride in the beginning that high schoolers are walking all over him, and by the end he sees himself as some untouchable kingpin even though in reality his whole life is in shambles. One of the last episodes is titled Ozymandias. It's pretty much the opposite of subtle.
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Sep 30, 2017 09:43
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He internalized everything so bad it gave him cancer. He only started feeling better after he became a horrible monster. And I never 'got' Seinfeld. These people were horrible individuals. George indirectly killing his fiancé and being happy about it was kind of the end for me. Plus the Seinfeld universe was disconcertingly racially pure and I can't help but imagine all of them having some part in the reporting and deportation of undesirables to whatever dystopian government agency handled those matters. The Puerto Ricans were the last minorities left and I fear they didn't survive long after their parade.
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Sep 30, 2017 10:28
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Krispy Wafer posted:He internalized everything so bad it gave him cancer. He only started feeling better after he became a horrible monster. I think that was the point
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Sep 30, 2017 11:17
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:I think it's because a lot of people mistake 'protagonist' for 'automatic good person.'
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Sep 30, 2017 15:32
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How has the Showtime/syndicated Brothers aged? Apart from the whole camp gay and sexless main gay character roommates dynamic that Will and Grace stole from it. That's one of those shows that has completely vanished, and I'm wondering if there's a reason why.
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Sep 30, 2017 19:36
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Krispy Wafer posted:And I never 'got' Seinfeld. These people were horrible individuals. Seinfeld has aged really well for the most part. The entire concept of the show was finding humor in the most mundane, every day things that people do, obsess over and get wrapped in and it was very good at it. I never even watched it until it got syndicated and only stopped because I'd seen them all but it was good, and I don't even really like Jerry Seinfeld that much as a stand up. I also don't get the hot new take on BB and Walter White not having a character arc or evolving (or devolving) because he most certainly did. The thing that people who say "he was always an rear end in a top hat" are missing is that, even if that's true, the fact that he was diagnosed with a death sentence gave him a "what have I got to lose" mindset and got him wondering why he'd wasted so much time playing it safe and following rules and poo poo just to leave his family dead broke. I definitely got his arc and saw a transformation. I think the reason that people often find him largely sympathetic relates to the idea of risk taking versus playing it safe, "what are you good at?" and "what would you do if you only had 6 months to live?" type of existential questions that we all face. It's easy to be brave when most of us aren't and knowing you're going to die anyway makes it easier to take huge risks. Yeah, he was stupid about it but he was also the BEST drug manufacturer in the country. I got it anyway.
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Sep 30, 2017 19:56
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Elaine was one of the main cast and she was Hispanic
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Sep 30, 2017 20:12
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hawowanlawow posted:help, I can't watch a show without obsessing over what I would do in a characters place Well that's... *looks at your avatar* ...oh dear. BiggerBoat posted:Seinfeld has aged really well for the most part. I'm starting to think that Seinfeld started making their characters sinister and then tried to use the final episode to explain that away. George's finance dying was a step too far and I think it ruined the fine line it used to tread. As for Breaking Bad, I think the whole 'what if you had to live six months' thing was pretty much erased by Season Two when his cancer went into remission.
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Sep 30, 2017 20:47
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when Susan died was a good episode society's arbitrary rules say you're supposed to be sad even when someone you don't care about dies, but there's no logical reason to that's why Seinfeld (and Curb) are so great. George and Larry don't obey society's arbitrary rules
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Sep 30, 2017 21:12
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:
Except that George was shown to be an idiot. selfish manchild throughout who was in no way ready to get married and only did so because Jerry told him him he was thinking about it. The whole arc was George feeling stuck with a promise he made, trapped in all the responsibilities of his choice and left stuck on an island without his best friend coming along. it was great. Him being secretly happy for getting a way out is totally in character. Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:As for Breaking Bad, I think the whole 'what if you had to live six months' thing was pretty much erased by Season Two when his cancer went into remission. Weird. I didn't read it that way at all. "cancer going into remission" = "you STILL have loving cancer" and are in no way in the clear. Plus by then, he'd already cast the die - caught up in a thing - and, in my opinion, was actually feeling more alive for the things he was doing, for better or for worse, and saw the money rolling in as well. My favorite thing about BB is how ALL of the characters are flawed and also likeable. No one is innocent. Most of my favorite shows and films are like that. I just take exception to the assertion that Walter was always an rear end in a top hat from the start, especially to the exception of all the other characters, and that he wasn't changing or evolving. That seems nuts to me and makes me wonder what loving show I watched twice. He seemed to me very much different by the end of the show than he was at the beginning and I find that hard to miss. Anyway, BB has aged great.
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Sep 30, 2017 21:24
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54 40 or gently caress posted:Plus going in over a second rewatch you notice a lot more of how he is just so abusive to Jesse off the hop.
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Sep 30, 2017 22:12
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BiggerBoat posted:Except that George was shown to be an idiot. selfish manchild throughout who was in no way ready to get married and only did so because Jerry told him him he was thinking about it. The whole arc was George feeling stuck with a promise he made, trapped in all the responsibilities of his choice and left stuck on an island without his best friend coming along. honestly, people just like hating on popular media. It doesn't matter if it's a good criticism
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Sep 30, 2017 22:42
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Elaine: can you spare a square?!
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Sep 30, 2017 22:59
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