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Ham Sandwiches posted:What I'm curious about is why funds, hedge funds, and financial institutions have started using Bitcoins if it is gambling? These companies are not in the business of gambling so presumably if that's what they are doing, they are violating their fiduciary duty to their shareholders. Like, I'm not aware of the Fidelity CEO taking a few billion down to Vegas to invest in roulette and then posting those returns. I've never heard of such a thing, maybe you have some recent examples. I have an example it is called the 2008 mortgage crisis.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:43 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 11:06 |
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I just bought 500 bitcoins based on the title of this thread I have not read any posts how do I get rich???
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:44 |
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Real talk though the entities you mention gamble all the time because they know they will get a taxpayer bailout and do it again and this has happened over and over and over. Why wouldn't they gamble on BTC? The potential wins are large and if they lose it doesn't matter. ALSO though, there are many speculative gamble trades like that but you will not find a major fund that is heavily invested into BTC as a % of their portfolio. You just won't.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:44 |
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Ham Sandwiches sounds like someone who, pre-crash, would mock people questioning Bernie Madoff's investment firm. "You idiots, it's gone up 15% EVERY YEAR! But here you are, still calling it a scam and telling people not to invest. You said the same thing LAST year but it's still going up!" The fact that people have not yet en masse realised that the emperor has no clothes does not, in fact, mean that the people pointing out that they can see his dick are the idiots.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:44 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Ok David I'll give you an effortpost reply to your efforpost but I will need a bit, please check back later tonight or tomorrow and we can continue arguing. Ok I’m convinced, but what are your financial advising certifications and licensing? I’m in 10k
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:44 |
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quote:So clearly real companies with real executives and real people are allowed to speculate in currency, but if any regular person should consider, then it is Gambling and imprudent. Every time you call it a currency you reveal how little you are informed in this area. Like I'm not trying to be a dick or anything but just something to keep in mind for future BTC threads idk. You can't pay taxes with it. They are not pegged to any useful commodity. It isn't a currency.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:46 |
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COMRADES posted:Real talk though the entities you mention gamble all the time because they know they will get a taxpayer bailout and do it again and this has happened over and over and over. It's only gambling if individuals do it, these are real companies investing real money so they don't gamble. quote:Why wouldn't they gamble on BTC? The potential wins are large and if they lose it doesn't matter. No dude an investment is not a gamble, that guy wrote out so many words to explain the difference. I'm just asking why using his definitions none of the big financials do "gambling" the way people understand it, ie going to a casino and betting on games of chance. And yet they mine and invest in bitcoins. Clearly it's different but he doesn't recognize the difference, which is loving rhetorical garbage that he uses to browbeat individuals into investing his way.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:47 |
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COMRADES posted:Every time you call it a currency you reveal how little you are informed in this area. Like I'm not trying to be a dick or anything but just something to keep in mind for future BTC threads idk. I see, I can't pay my taxes in Yen either, clearly not a real currency right???
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:48 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:It's only gambling if individuals do it, these are real companies investing real money so they don't gamble. Because you think dropping .01% of a portfolio on a total longshot trade is akin to going and spinning the roulette wheel with the principal and that makes you a giblet head Dale.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:48 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:I see, I can't pay my taxes in Yen either, clearly not a real currency right??? You can pay Japanese taxes in Yen lmao. Thus Yen carries value because everyone in Japan needs Yen to pay their taxes. This is called a fiat currency.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:49 |
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Moola posted:I just bought 500 bitcoins based on the title of this thread Send your bitcoins to this website to get rich.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:49 |
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Chitin posted:Ham Sandwiches sounds like someone who, pre-crash, would mock people questioning Bernie Madoff's investment firm. "You idiots, it's gone up 15% EVERY YEAR! But here you are, still calling it a scam and telling people not to invest. You said the same thing LAST year but it's still going up!" Things bitcoins are like: Tulips Ponzi Schemes Gambling in las Vegas Things bitcoins are NOT like: sound financial instruments stocks - those have INHERENT VALUE currency Repeat this at $700 And then at $1500 And then at $2500 and then at $4k And then go "umm just because the numbers, hedge funds, countries, retailers, and people using this keep going up doesn't mean I'm wrong" and you have the formula the SA forums have enjoyed the past few years. It's loving great.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:49 |
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EorayMel posted:Send your bitcoins to this website to get rich. Excuse me my Jita scams are PATENTED YOU CANNOT DO THIS
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:50 |
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COMRADES posted:You can pay Japanese taxes in Yen lmao. Thus Yen carries value because everyone in Japan needs Yen to pay their taxes. This is called a fiat currency. Yeah but as an American I can still buy and trade it even though I can't pay my taxes in it... now what That also applies for Japanese people that own US dollars are you loving with me here dude!!!! They can't pay their taxes with these things!!
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:50 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Things bitcoins are like: lol Be one of the owners of 70% of the BTCs stolen by Mt Gox.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:51 |
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COMRADES posted:Excuse me my Jita scams are PATENTED YOU CANNOT DO THIS actual lol irl was thus achieved
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:52 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Yeah but as an American I can still buy and trade it even though I can't pay my taxes in it... now what I mean this is like basic definitions of terms in 101 classes idk what to tell you. Fiat currency = currencies backed by a sovereign gov't that require payment of that currency for their taxes. Commodity currency = currencies whose value is derived from a specific unit of the commodity itself. Gold/silver/salt/etc. BTC is which?
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:53 |
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COMRADES posted:I have an example it is called the 2008 mortgage crisis.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:53 |
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COMRADES posted:I mean this is like basic definitions of terms in 101 classes idk what to tell you. Ok. You are telling me that you can't pay taxes in bitcoin and that makes it fake. If an American holds US Dollars that's great because they can pay their taxes in US Dollars to the US, where they live. That checks out. Except an American can also buy Yen, and they can't pay their US taxes in Yen. And Japanese people can buy Dollars, which they also can't pay Japanese taxes in. How does the yen become more real to Japanese people since they can pay taxes in it and less real to Americans since they can't??
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:55 |
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The nature of my job means that it's prudent for me to be on the up and up about how finance stuff works, but I don't think that's directly relevant to the discussion. I can accept that it's very possible that large scale financial institutions may invest in Bitcoin, but I would also sincerely advise wariness about the why of that. I'd always advise wariness about any investment if you do not understand why that is happening; that something is going to go up really can't be enough. These banks are indeed willing to simply gamble because they can re-acquire their investments through tax dollars very easily, but it's also important to understand that the core concepts of Bitcoin are not well protected against the scale of force that large financial institutions can bring to bear. The Bitcoin market is very easy to manipulate; simple scams can very easily drive the price up or down(Typically up.)by market manipulation which is used to put out sell or buy orders never intended to be fulfilled. A system like this simply cannot weather the force of wealth a bank can bring to bear; consider my last post, when I laid out the point that someone must lose in Bitcoin. Do you really want to put your investment knowledge and ability to manipulate financial markets against that of an entire financial institution? Relative to your above point about the nature of currency, currency has valuation because it's directly representative of the worth and/or wealth of a nation which has printed it. An American dollar is backed by the American government, and its use worth thereby enforced by said government's economic production. It's similar to a company which produces valued products, in this sense; for a simplistic view, think of an American dollar as a share in the United States. By holding this currency, you are directly investing in the US. Blade Runner fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Oct 5, 2017 |
# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:55 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Ok. You are telling me that you can't pay taxes in bitcoin and that makes it fake. Are you having a stroke? Ham Sandwiches posted:How does the yen become more real to Japanese people since they can pay taxes in it and less real to Americans since they can't?? If you are Japanese and without sufficient Yen you get arrested and imprisoned. If you are American without sufficient USD, same. I can buy LEGO with my USD that doesn't mean LEGO are now a currency.
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:57 |
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David Heinrich posted:The nature of my job means that it's prudent for me to be on the up and up about how finance stuff works, but I don't think that's directly relevant to the discussion. I can accept that it's very possible that large scale financial institutions may invest in Bitcoin, but I would also sincerely advise wariness about the why of that. I'd always advise wariness about any investment if you do not understand why that is happening; that something is going to go up really can't be enough. These banks are indeed willing to simply gamble because they can re-acquire their investments through tax dollars very easily, but it's also important to understand that the core concepts of Bitcoin are not well protected against the scale of force that large financial institutions can bring to bear. The Bitcoin market is very easy to manipulate; simple scams can very easily drive the price up or down(Typically up.)by market manipulation which is used to put out sell or buy orders never intended to be fulfilled. A system like this simply cannot weather the force of wealth a bank can bring to bear; consider my last post, when I laid out the point that someone must lose in Bitcoin. Nah man. Look at how owned you are. You are so loving stupid all these years because you're wrong about bitcoin. lol. Also, it is never a bad time to break out this:
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# ? Oct 5, 2017 23:58 |
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David Heinrich posted:The nature of my job means that it's prudent for me to be on the up and up about how finance stuff works, but I don't think that's directly relevant to the discussion. I can accept that it's very possible that large scale financial institutions may invest in Bitcoin, but I would also sincerely advise wariness about the why of that. I'd always advise wariness about any investment if you do not understand why that is happening; that something is going to go up really can't be enough. These banks are indeed willing to simply gamble because they can re-acquire their investments through tax dollars very easily, but it's also important to understand that the core concepts of Bitcoin are not well protected against the scale of force that large financial institutions can bring to bear. The Bitcoin market is very easy to manipulate; simple scams can very easily drive the price up or down(Typically up.)by market manipulation which is used to put out sell or buy orders never intended to be fulfilled. A system like this simply cannot weather the force of wealth a bank can bring to bear; consider my last post, when I laid out the point that someone must lose in Bitcoin. This seems to be trying very hard to avoid the narrow definition of gambling that was just established at length. I am accusing you of having a double standard that it's gambling if an individual does it, investment if an institution does it. If someone has faith that bitcoin will continue to legitimize as an investment it does not make them a gambler. Clearly these institutions think it could pan off and are hedging their bets. It's loving ridiculous that you are painting individuals as reckless gamblers for trying to mirror the behavior of major institutions if they so choose. It is literally this that bothers me so much about all the bitcoin discussions. People are meant to be kept away from potential things at all costs, because this guy knows its gambling and knows better. loving BS. quote:Do you really want to put your investment knowledge and ability to manipulate financial markets against that of an entire financial institution? You mean, what happens when you invest in wall street? Or is it not ok to imply that the hedge funds and wall street banks are largely concerned with their own well-being and not that of the overall market? HFT is great stuff, algorithms are great stuff, short selling is great stuff, stock manipulation is great stuff, and NONE OF THAT happens on Wall Street where major firms make billions systematically taking value from individual investors and weak hands
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:02 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:It is literally this that bothers me so much about all the bitcoin discussions. People are meant to be kept away from potential things at all costs, because this guy knows its gambling and knows better. loving BS. lol @ this comment alone
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:03 |
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EorayMel posted:lol @ this comment alone Yeah, what's your issue with it?
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:05 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:This seems to be trying very hard to avoid the narrow definition of gambling that was just established at length. I am accusing you of having a double standard that it's gambling if an individual does it, investment if an institution does it. If someone has faith that bitcoin will continue to legitimize as an investment it does not make them a gambler. Clearly these institutions think it could pan off and are hedging their bets. It's loving ridiculous that you are painting individuals as reckless gamblers for trying to mirror the behavior of major institutions if they so choose. It's gambling because you have a risk of total loss which isn't insignificant in exchange for maybe substantial returns based on nothing other than 'number go up people happy make number go up more.' There's no business plan to invest in, there's no revenues to buy a share of, there's literally nothing other than this widget which is valued highly simply because, in your own words, people value it highly. Ham Sandwiches posted:It is literally this that bothers me so much about all the bitcoin discussions. People are meant to be kept away from potential things at all costs, because this guy knows its gambling and knows better. loving BS. That's why you don't be a retail day trader and just stick your money into a diversified portfolio. I'd have similar advice about penny stocks as with BTC. Penny stocks are gambling too.
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:05 |
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COMRADES posted:Well but has there ever been a period where there wasn't some weird stuff happening with BTC? Change the time interval here to 4h https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bitfinex/btcusd September 14 A massive selloff that began triggering margin calls halted by $150m worth of coins being purchased. http://omniexplorer.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=3MbYQMMmSkC3AgWkj9FMo5LsPTW1zBTwXL $25m created on sept 3, 5, 7, 14.
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:07 |
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COMRADES posted:It's gambling because you have a risk of total loss which isn't insignificant in exchange for maybe substantial returns based on nothing other than 'number go up people happy make number go up more.' If you believe that countries may consider it as an alternative to a specific fiat currency, or that it will have some role in the upcoming global chaos / turmoil then no actually it means that your reasons are actually more detailed than "number go up people happy" even if other people disagree with those reasons
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:07 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:If you believe that countries may consider it as an alternative to a specific fiat currency Why would they ever do this? e: And why BTC, specifically?
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:08 |
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COMRADES posted:Why would they ever do this? Here's one hypothetical out of many! Sometimes countries get into really weird debt spirals or have bizarre inflation issues, like the hyperinflation in Zimbabwe. You never know if or when that stuff will happen, but Bitcoin could be surprisingly useful if it does
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:10 |
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Uranium 235 posted:Not saying that chart is wrong, but it doesn't match this chart: yours is tracking currency traded in USD denominated markets, not markets for Chinese yuan.
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:10 |
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I've gone into this previously, about how it's essentially gambling because of the lack of anything meriting any valuation whatsoever. Bitcoins are basically chips to a non-existent casino. The reason that large financial institutions can do this is myriad: Firstly, they have the money not only to lose, but to individually manipulate the markets to allow a greater outcome for themselves and secondly because they have experienced financial advisors making their decisions. I would not typically advise any individual with no experience in stocks or finance to personally invest in the stock market, either. That said, no, I do not believe it is investment for a large firm to put their money in Bitcoin; it's still gambling, but gambling they can easily afford to do in a market that currently has no regulations(This will not last if any bank seriously investigates the use of Bitcoin, which will likely result in a massive crash because Bitcoin is primarily inferior to Securities, if regulated according to the laws that would likely be used.) My use of the term 'invest' there was primarily because it looked better composition-wise. If you take umbrage with it on word choice alone, I apologize. Bitcoin would not be useful in that scenario for many reasons, one of the bigger and more obvious ones being that it requires electronics and people in a debt spiraling African country probably aren't going to have the latest iPhone. Even past that, however, I severely doubt most governments would be willing to give up control of their currency to an external system, even if facing hyperinflation, and Bitcoin would quickly go back to being devalued if a stronger government took force and re-instated a trustworthy currency. Blade Runner fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Oct 6, 2017 |
# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:11 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Here's one hypothetical out of many! How would BTC be useful in that situation though? Like say I'm the president of Fuckistan and you're my economic advisor. We're experiencing hyperinflation and other things that we are blaming the US government for (the pigs). I call you in, and say 'alright you emailed me about these Bitcoin things. Explain what we need to do and why.' (I know the basic concept of the block chain so you can skip that and just go directly to how this helps us.)
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:11 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Here's one hypothetical out of many! What's your opinion on bitcoin in Venezuela?
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:15 |
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COMRADES posted:How would BTC be useful in that situation though? The scenario you are making up is loving bizarre. What i'm talking about is: The citizens of Fuckistan have Fuckdollars which suddenly become useless when Fuckistan goes to war with the united states. The citizens of Fuckistan may not be able to use Fuckdollars in any way but they can try using any Bitcoins they have for their transactions. The citizens of the neighboring countries may say "We don't want your worthless fuckdollars because they'll be gone when Fuckistan is gone but we'll accept Bitcoins for bread since we can convert those back into our currency" and that would generally cause the price to go up as more people started using it to do this
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:15 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Things bitcoins are like: Your defense against my making fun of you is literally the argument I was making fun of you for making. You didn't even state it in a different way.
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:16 |
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Chitin posted:Your defense against my making fun of you is literally the argument I was making fun of you for making. You didn't even state it in a different way. Indeed, it won't be wrong no matter what the price goes up to or how widely it gets accepted, you'll never be wrong. I just wanted to explain that this brilliant position of yours is absolutely representative of the forum consensus over the past few years.
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:17 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The scenario you are making up is loving bizarre. What i'm talking about is: I mean it's your scenario man you mentioned the hyperinflation and whatnot. Ham Sandwiches posted:The citizens of Fuckistan have Fuckdollars which suddenly become useless when Fuckistan goes to war with the united states. Well so my question here then is why would they want BTC... which they have to somehow digitally convert (let's say it is 50 years from now and that's not an issue fine)... instead of just USD?
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:17 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The scenario you are making up is loving bizarre. What i'm talking about is: The essential issue with this is, as I said, Bitcoin does not have anything that merits valuation. In a sense, all monetary goods are stocks, pieces of paper or electronic numbers which represent a certain amount of stake in a company; this also goes for currency, because you are investing in that country's wealth. There is no institution backing Bitcoin, which makes it inherently worthless by its very nature. You are investing in the stock of a company that does not exist.
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:19 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 11:06 |
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The scenario you are making up is loving bizarre. What i'm talking about is: Fucktoken is actually a real thing, and it's a pretty good introduction to something everybody is beginning to frown upon called Initial Coin Offerings(ICO) http://www.fucktoken.io/
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# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:21 |