Post the very best in obsolete and failed technology

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Resident Idiot: May 11, 2007; Maxine13; Grimey Drawer

Plinkey posted:

Weren't there a series of really long effort posts in this thread about how far emulator programers are going to get the CRT look on modern LCDs?

Almost exactly a year ago, starting around page 428, with the same comparisons to wooden knobs for audiophiles and the same Zelda image:

KozmoNaut posted:

By virtue of CRT TVs being ubiquitous and dominant for decades, old game consoles and VHS were designed to work around or even exploit their quirks and limitations. So yes, in that sense you could say that retro games look "better" on a CRT than on an LCD or Plasma, though I would prefer the term "period correct".

Certain games exploited both NTSC/PAL and the nature of the CRT itself, to achieve transparency effects on hardware that was incapable of handling an alpha channel, and other similar effects. You could even use the inherent color handling of NTSC to generate significantly more colors on screen than the console was actually capable of outputting. A lot of really neat tricks were/are possible, demo codes in particular have been really adept at discovering and using them.

This is a really fantastic explanation of one of the most impressive demos ever: https://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your-emulators/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXx3orN35Y

All that you see in the video and the pictures was done on a 4.77MHz IBM PC-XT, with a CGA graphics adapter. You know, graphics that could only do 4 simultanous colors, and usually looked like this:

That's why a lot of us retro-nerd gamers like to either use CRT/scanline emulation screen filters, or play on actual CRTs. Not because it's "better", but because the games were designed with that monitor technology in mind. On an LCD with no filters apart from straight pixel upscaling, old games look extremely pixelated and low-res, because that's what they are. But the graphics weren't meant to be seen as sharp square pixels, they were meant to be slightly fuzzy.

(This all basically ended when 3D games became dominant. Unlike fixed-resolution 2D "pixel art" games, 3D games scale well with resolution and display technology.)

By virtue of the way it works, a CRT imparts a bit of softness to the image, a basic form of antialiasing and dithering/filtering. This helps older pixelated graphics look a lot better than they really are.

Here's an example that's maybe a bit extreme:

And some games just don't look right at all if the monitor is too modern or too sharp. On the left is a Sonic game, as it would look in an emulator on your PC. On the right, a basic CRT simulation is applied, which simply blurs the image a bit horizontally. The difference is quite noticeable, and much closer to how the game looks on a CRT.

Getting back to VHS, I wouldn't say they look "good" on a CRT, but they certainly look "less poo poo". VHS was designed to be "good enough" on a common CRT TV. Once we got better monitor technology, we started to see all the warts that were hidden by the limitations of CRTs.

And VHS is severely limited by its nature. If you've ever compared hooking up a game console with RF versus Composite versus S-Video versus RGB (Component/SCART), there's a bit difference in sharpness and color. VHS is Composite video by nature, that's how the signal is encoded onto tape. You can never get better quality than that out of VHS, no matter what you do. And a lot of people even hooked up their VCRs using RF, which just made everything even worse.

DVD was a gigantic step up in both video and sound quality, even if you were stuck with a Composite connection. And if you had S-Video or RGB, the difference from VHS was mind-blowing, much larger than the difference from DVD to Bluray/HD-DVD.

E: Here are some more good examples of what a CRT (or CRT simulation) can do:

# ? Oct 5, 2017 12:04

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 01:33

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

sebmojo posted:

random question: could you do me a favor and explain what a di box does in extremely simple terms? I'm a pro musician and i'm not a dunce technically but for some reason explanations about that particular piece of kit never stick in my brain.

I play cello so I'm pretty sure I need to use them but I still have no idea why.

In essence, a DI takes a loud (or line level) audio signal and makes it quieter (mic level), while also hopefully eliminating any AC hiss. This is important because a lot of mixing boards don't have line/mic level pads (built in volume reduction similar to what a DI does, although it won't help with hiss) on their inputs, and another lot of boards, especially older ones, only have XLR inputs. So if you're going from, say, a computer to a board, you'd go out through your headphone jack to separate stereo 1/4" heads>stereo DI>two XLR cables>your board. If quality's an issue/your device has no headphone jack you might use a USB or Bluetooth DI, which work the same way but skip (some of) the cabling.

What kind of cello do you play? If you're using an acoustic cello then I assume you'd just mic it and none of this would apply. If you're doing electric cello through an amp then you'd have to check the amp itself to see what kind of outs it had. If it only had line-level outs then yes, you'd either want a DI or a board with a built in -20DB pad.

# ? Oct 5, 2017 12:41

Keiya: Aug 22, 2009; Come with me if you want to not die.

Neito posted:

It's a way they can feel superior to others. It happens in every fandom. See: slapfights on /r/anime about which sub group is the best, Retro gaming enthusists complaining about lack of pixel fuzzing, any time a Smash Bros. Melee player hears about someone playing on an LCD tv....

As long as you're not running games intended for CGA composite displays without faking the artifact colors, whatever.

Top left: Composite mode on an RGB monitor (or direct unfiltered output), top right: Composite mode with artifact color simulation

Kwyndig posted:

I was trying to imagine why this needs to be underground when all he really needs is sound baffling and the faraday cage if he's that concerned about EM interference, but then I realized I was starting to think like an audiophile.

Cosmic radiation protection clearly.

Keiya has a new favorite as of 13:43 on Oct 5, 2017

# ? Oct 5, 2017 13:38

Queen_Combat: Jan 15, 2011

sebmojo posted:

random question: could you do me a favor and explain what a di box does in extremely simple terms? I'm a pro musician and i'm not a dunce technically but for some reason explanations about that particular piece of kit never stick in my brain.

I play cello so I'm pretty sure I need to use them but I still have no idea why.

So you don't fucker the studio audio equipment with your cello pickup. And as step 1 in balancing all the inputs. Think of it as an adapter that goes from phono level to line level, but for instruments.

Platystemon posted:

Solid state step‐down? As in switch mode power supplies!?

Power must be supplied at 5 V logic level. Only diodes and resistors may be used to regulate the voltage.

Nah nah. Purely resistive :byoscience:

# ? Oct 5, 2017 18:23

Snow Cone Capone: Jul 31, 2003

If we're talking audio recording gear I have an extremely newbie question: is a DI box a valid replacement for an amp? I bought this little Line6 DI thingy, and it comes with a bunch of amp/effect modeling stuff, but plugging in directly to it, it sounds kind of weak and crappy. But if I plug into my amp and out to the DI box, what's the point of modelling a different amp?

Really I just want to play my electrics but I don't have a convenient spot to put an amp, and I have decent studio monitors hooked up to my computer :shrug:

# ? Oct 5, 2017 21:15

RoyKeen: Jul 24, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Geoj posted:

Never enter the home of an audiophile with money. I was doing some freelance IT work for a client working out of his home office and he couldn't wait to show me his setup. All of his equipment was perched on Sterrett precision surfaces, which were in turn surrounded by quartz crystals and had pyramids made from carbon fiber rods over them (can't recall his reasoning for the crystals or pyramids.)

Power was supplied by a gang of AC-DC-AC converters (as in, he was feeding one out of the other to remove all "noise" from the pole) and his speaker cables were some crazy 1" thick shielded lines that ran across the floor suspended from ceramic supports that were (like the Sterrett surfaces) surrounded by quartz crystals.

Apparently all of that wasn't enough, because he was talking about building an underground ~~bunker~~ listening room 50' below ground, with 2' concrete walls and a Faraday cage to remove all electromagnetic interference for "the optimal listening experience"

As a recording engineer I have a distant fear that an audiophile will know that I recorded that snare with a cheap SM57 through the most garbage mic cables into a Mackie and then to the cheapest AD converter in a basement. Are there audiophile recordings? I just think I learned how to make a mint if it wouldn't cost ten times that to make an Audiophile studio...

# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:44

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

The Ape of Naples posted:

As a recording engineer I have a distant fear that an audiophile will know that I recorded that snare with a cheap SM57 through the most garbage mic cables into a Mackie and then to the cheapest AD converter in a basement. Are there audiophile recordings? I just think I learned how to make a mint if it wouldn't cost ten times that to make an Audiophile studio...

GLS ES57, yea or nay

i've seen decent performance out of one but it broke real easy compared to a shure

# ? Oct 6, 2017 00:47

BogDew: Jun 14, 2006; E:\FILES>quickfli clown.fli

The Ape of Naples posted:

Are there audiophile recordings?

Discussed earlier in the thread were SACD and DVD-A formats designed for surround setups and the audiophile market.

These have been replaced by High Fidelity Pure Audio which are blurays that have nearly lossless quality.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 01:21

roffels: Jul 27, 2004; Yo Taxi!

WebDog posted:

Discussed earlier in the thread were SACD and DVD-A formats designed for surround setups and the audiophile market.

These have been replaced by High Fidelity Pure Audio which are blurays that have nearly lossless quality.

What do you mean by "nearly" lossless quality?

I though they were (mostly) PCM lossless music like DVDAs were, and sometimes include various other lossless codecs because reasons.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 02:01

RoyKeen: Jul 24, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Grand Prize Winner posted:

GLS ES57, yea or nay

i've seen decent performance out of one but it broke real easy compared to a shure

Part of (all) the beauty of a 57 is its ability to not break.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 02:08

RoyKeen: Jul 24, 2007; Grimey Drawer

WebDog posted:

Discussed earlier in the thread were SACD and DVD-A formats designed for surround setups and the audiophile market.

These have been replaced by High Fidelity Pure Audio which are blurays that have nearly lossless quality.

I think I mis-spoke. I meant audiophile recording studios. As in, those 1 inch thick silver speaker cables? Those are our mic cables. In the end it's hard for me to think of most microphones as being 'audiophile'. Maybe Earthworks. I've been out of the loop for a bit but you get the idea. For all this care from disc to speaker they seem to ignore everything that it went through to get made.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 02:11

KakerMix: Apr 8, 2004; 8.2 M.P.G.

The Ape of Naples posted:

I think I mis-spoke. I meant audiophile recording studios. As in, those 1 inch thick silver speaker cables? Those are our mic cables. In the end it's hard for me to think of most microphones as being 'audiophile'. Maybe Earthworks. I've been out of the loop for a bit but you get the idea. For all this care from disc to speaker they seem to ignore everything that it went through to get made.

The problem is you are trying to use logic.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 04:37

BogDew: Jun 14, 2006; E:\FILES>quickfli clown.fli

roffels posted:

What do you mean by "nearly" lossless quality?
I though they were (mostly) PCM lossless music like DVDAs were, and sometimes include various other lossless codecs because reasons.

My brain was thinking about DTS-HD which comes with a lossy version that plays on devices that can't support the full quality. The other flavor, Dolby TrueHD, also can get resampled into standard Dolby to help with performance.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 06:03

Samizdata: May 14, 2007

The Ape of Naples posted:

I think I mis-spoke. I meant audiophile recording studios. As in, those 1 inch thick silver speaker cables? Those are our mic cables. In the end it's hard for me to think of most microphones as being 'audiophile'. Maybe Earthworks. I've been out of the loop for a bit but you get the idea. For all this care from disc to speaker they seem to ignore everything that it went through to get made.

Like that Japanese idiot with his own power pole.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 06:11

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO: Feb 28, 1985

roffels posted:

DVDA

Heh

# ? Oct 6, 2017 06:24

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Grand Prize Winner posted:

In essence, a DI takes a loud (or line level) audio signal and makes it quieter (mic level), while also hopefully eliminating any AC hiss. This is important because a lot of mixing boards don't have line/mic level pads (built in volume reduction similar to what a DI does, although it won't help with hiss) on their inputs, and another lot of boards, especially older ones, only have XLR inputs. So if you're going from, say, a computer to a board, you'd go out through your headphone jack to separate stereo 1/4" heads>stereo DI>two XLR cables>your board. If quality's an issue/your device has no headphone jack you might use a USB or Bluetooth DI, which work the same way but skip (some of) the cabling.

What kind of cello do you play? If you're using an acoustic cello then I assume you'd just mic it and none of this would apply. If you're doing electric cello through an amp then you'd have to check the amp itself to see what kind of outs it had. If it only had line-level outs then yes, you'd either want a DI or a board with a built in -20DB pad.

thanks, that makes sense. I play with a pickup through a few pedals and into an amp, so presumably the same level as an electric guitar. I have a gig coming up and I was going to plug straight into the PA, but now I'm wondering if micing the amp into the PA with an sm57 would work better?

# ? Oct 6, 2017 07:46

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

sebmojo posted:

thanks, that makes sense. I play with a pickup through a few pedals and into an amp, so presumably the same level as an electric guitar. I have a gig coming up and I was going to plug straight into the PA, but now I'm wondering if micing the amp into the PA with an sm57 would work better?

Honestly I've never dealt with an electric cello before. Are you using effects or are you just trying to do trad cello but louder? If you're using effects, mic the amp, if you're going clean then just use the pickup as-is. What's your monitor situation like? Are you going to use your amp as a monitor?

# ? Oct 6, 2017 08:10

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Grand Prize Winner posted:

Honestly I've never dealt with an electric cello before. Are you using effects or are you just trying to do trad cello but louder? If you're using effects, mic the amp, if you're going clean then just use the pickup as-is. What's your monitor situation like? Are you going to use your amp as a monitor?

Yeah, effects; delay/fuzz/tremolo. Cellos feedback very easily (big hollow body) so monitoring is tricky, but I guess the amp as monitor would work - will there be latency if I'm going amp->mic->pa->monitor?

(apologies to thread for the derail, I think we're nearly done)

# ? Oct 6, 2017 09:10

champagne posting: Apr 5, 2006; YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

just get one of those mics with a sticker on it you slap on the body and connect to a mixer or w/e

like this thing: https://www.amazon.com/Leegoal-Guitar-Violin-Contact-Quality/dp/B008YDTVW8

# ? Oct 6, 2017 09:29

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

sebmojo posted:

Yeah, effects; delay/fuzz/tremolo. Cellos feedback very easily (big hollow body) so monitoring is tricky, but I guess the amp as monitor would work - will there be latency if I'm going amp->mic->pa->monitor?

(apologies to thread for the derail, I think we're nearly done)

Ok, if you're using effects then just mic the amp with a 57 or comparable and you're done!

And don't let me tell you what to use as a monitor, I clearly don't know cellos. Was just kinda guessing. The signal chain you listed (amp->mic->pa->monitor) wouldn't give you significant latency and makes sense to me.

Fun fact vaguely on-topic: the SM-57 design is older than almost all of us. Still not obsolete.

e: you got a soundcloud/bandcamp or something? I'd love to hear what a cello with a bunch of effects sounds like. shoot me a line at norphar@gmail.com .

Grand Prize Winner has a new favorite as of 09:49 on Oct 6, 2017

# ? Oct 6, 2017 09:46

Samizdata: May 14, 2007

Grand Prize Winner posted:

Ok, if you're using effects then just mic the amp with a 57 or comparable and you're done!

And don't let me tell you what to use as a monitor, I clearly don't know cellos. Was just kinda guessing. The signal chain you listed (amp->mic->pa->monitor) wouldn't give you significant latency and makes sense to me.

Fun fact vaguely on-topic: the SM-57 design is older than almost all of us. Still not obsolete.

e: you got a soundcloud/bandcamp or something? I'd love to hear what a cello with a bunch of effects sounds like. shoot me a line at norphar@gmail.com .

You aren't the only one. PM me, Seb?

# ? Oct 6, 2017 10:18

impulse 7 effect: Jun 2, 2011

roffels posted:

What do you mean by "nearly" lossless quality?

I though they were (mostly) PCM lossless music like DVDAs were, and sometimes include various other lossless codecs because reasons.

Nearly lossless because *digital"

Yeah

# ? Oct 6, 2017 14:36

Keiya: Aug 22, 2009; Come with me if you want to not die.

The Ape of Naples posted:

As a recording engineer I have a distant fear that an audiophile will know that I recorded that snare with a cheap SM57 through the most garbage mic cables into a Mackie and then to the cheapest AD converter in a basement. Are there audiophile recordings? I just think I learned how to make a mint if it wouldn't cost ten times that to make an Audiophile studio...

Just claim any distortion or imperfection is part of your desired sound. You can do that on the recording end!

roffels posted:

What do you mean by "nearly" lossless quality?

I though they were (mostly) PCM lossless music like DVDAs were, and sometimes include various other lossless codecs because reasons.

There is literally no good reason to not use lossless compression. You can literally recreate the original, bit for bit. It isn't even theoretically distinguishable.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 15:04

Humphreys: Jan 26, 2013; We conceived a way to use my mother as a porn mule

Grand Prize Winner posted:

e: you got a soundcloud/bandcamp or something? I'd love to hear what a cello with a bunch of effects sounds like. shoot me a line at norphar@gmail.com .

I too would love to hear it

# ? Oct 7, 2017 04:08

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO: Feb 28, 1985

Same please. That's cool as.

# ? Oct 7, 2017 13:52

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Will do - I tried out an old Marshall valvestate but it had way too much feedback. i've got another one I'll try tomorrow.

# ? Oct 7, 2017 14:18

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

I love hearing processed classical instruments, a stand-up bass through a wah wah is amazing.

# ? Oct 7, 2017 17:49

roffels: Jul 27, 2004; Yo Taxi!

Keiya posted:

Just claim any distortion or imperfection is part of your desired sound. You can do that on the recording end!

There is literally no good reason to not use lossless compression. You can literally recreate the original, bit for bit. It isn't even theoretically distinguishable.

My point being is that they'd include more than one lossless codec. Like the equivalent of "here's the FLAC version and a PCM version!"

# ? Oct 7, 2017 21:05

titties: May 10, 2012; They're like two suicide notes stuffed into a glitter bra

Hi, did I miss the picture that was supposed to solve the turntable debate about which of them was wrong and dumb?

# ? Oct 7, 2017 21:21

FilthyImp: Sep 30, 2002; Anime Deviant

Grand Prize Winner posted:

I'd love to hear what a cello with a bunch of effects sounds like

Wasn't the badass Wonder Woman theme from BvS on an electric cello?

Content: gently caress me AIM (AOL Instant Messenger) will be shuttered in December. I remember telling my folks that I needed a new computer because my putzy Mac Performa couldnt handle AIM v3.52 :cry:

# ? Oct 7, 2017 21:52

Zemyla: Aug 6, 2008; I'll take her off your hands. Pleasure doing business with you!

titties posted:

Hi, did I miss the picture that was supposed to solve the turntable debate about which of them was wrong and dumb?

Answer: Vinyl is wrong and dumb.

# ? Oct 8, 2017 03:40

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

titties posted:

Hi, did I miss the picture that was supposed to solve the turntable debate about which of them was wrong and dumb?

Has HotCanadianChick posted anywhere since then?

# ? Oct 8, 2017 04:10

TITTIEKISSER69: Mar 19, 2005; SAVE THE BEES
PLANT MORE TREES
CLEAN THE SEAS
KISS TITTIESS

Monday will be 1 week since their last post.

# ? Oct 8, 2017 07:37

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

sebmojo posted:

Yeah, effects; delay/fuzz/tremolo. Cellos feedback very easily (big hollow body) so monitoring is tricky, but I guess the amp as monitor would work - will there be latency if I'm going amp->mic->pa->monitor?

(apologies to thread for the derail, I think we're nearly done)

so trip report, i ended up DIing into the PA and it sounded good, there was a bit of feedback but it was the good sort. Didn't record the gig b/c I'm a buffoon, but here's a jam i did a couple of weeks before that should give you the idea.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 14:45

Antioch: Apr 18, 2003

sebmojo posted:

so trip report, i ended up DIing into the PA and it sounded good, there was a bit of feedback but it was the good sort. Didn't record the gig b/c I'm a buffoon, but here's a jam i did a couple of weeks before that should give you the idea.

The opening few minutes of this are like the soundtrack to an arthouse flick about technologically advanced vikings fighting off aliens or something. Long sweeping shots of cold snowy landscapes, maybe a bear walks by in the mid distance, then Mads Mikkelsen in frame stage left, dressed like his character from Valhalla Rising.

All this to say I like it.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 17:20

Kirk Vikernes: Apr 26, 2004; Count Goatnackh

First few minutes sounds like Om if Al Cisneros ditched his bass for a cello.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 18:17

Krispy Wafer: Jul 26, 2002; I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat; Grimey Drawer

It does sound like techno Vikings. Like a version of Thor directed by Zach Snyder.

Also the beginning sounds a bit like REM's Crush with Eyeliner.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 19:37

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

It's like the end credits for a seventies sci-fi movie that doesn't make any sense. Diggin' it.

# ? Oct 11, 2017 23:48

Humphreys: Jan 26, 2013; We conceived a way to use my mother as a porn mule

sebmojo posted:

so trip report, i ended up DIing into the PA and it sounded good, there was a bit of feedback but it was the good sort. Didn't record the gig b/c I'm a buffoon, but here's a jam i did a couple of weeks before that should give you the idea.

I would buy an album of this. It's fantastic and I'm only half way through.

Reminds me of Liquid Tension Experiment.

Humphreys has a new favorite as of 08:54 on Oct 12, 2017

# ? Oct 12, 2017 08:33

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 01:33

Mr.Radar: Nov 5, 2005; You guys aren't going to believe this, but that guy is our games teacher.

Fran Blanche recently posted a video demonstrating a very rare numeric display tube that meets both of the criteria of the thread title:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmWg7CtN0Ac

# ? Oct 16, 2017 20:02

The Something Awful Forums > Main > Post Your Favorite: Carefully Curated > Post the very best in obsolete and failed technology

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