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Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000

divabot posted:

still pretty sure ham sandwiches is a serial victim, who's been burnt repeatedly on bitcoins, and it's all OUR FAULT for not believing HARD ENOUGH.

and it's still clear that I have made more money from bitcoins than HS

Which people do you think got burned with Bitcoin at $5000 you dunce

quote:

every post you make is your gold fringed consent. also, i've made more money from cryptocurrencies than you.

I can't tell you how much I enjoyed your author page and seeing your photo. It made all your posts so much better. I couldn't understand why you were such an unpleasant prick, but now I do.

quote:

actually, i think you're incorrect there: at this stage they don't even care about the massive and blatant centralisation of mining, as long as the number might go up. also, i've made more money from crypto pog coin bits than Ham Sandwiches.

Wait a minute, are you making money from crypto pog bits while warning people off of them? What is your position in coins, have you disclosed it?

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Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

he wrote a book, i think you previously complained about it

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!
Uhm, pretty sure bitcoin sells GPUs.

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009

Oh wow over 100 new replies in the buttcoin thread, I hope a new laffblock was mined.




:smith:

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

Ham Sandwiches posted:

Which people do you think got burned with Bitcoin at $5000 you dunce

the people buying it now obviously, the people who don't sell, also the overwhelming majority of "investors" many people who got scammed, lost money, etc

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005
hey ham sandwiches. psssst ham sandwiches i got something i want to tell you

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005
shitcoins

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

spitcoins

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000

Blade Runner posted:

1. Sure, but the only reason Bitcoin can currently easily do that is because of lack of oversight. That's why the use case of criminal activity is just not a good one; if it gets any attention, it's pretty much gonna end up being as difficult as using banks to get things out of it. Or, alternatively, the government will just say it can no longer be used. If you want what specific agencies would be stenciled on the backs of the guys kicking in your door, I mean, I donno.

2. Any of them, really. It was a basic rundown of why there's a fundamental difference between gambling and investing. Loss mitigation, regulation, etc.;

3. Because you're insisting that it is new and better, when it is really neither. The comparison comes in as a semantics thing only because you insist that Bitcoin is different from unregulated securities despite being unregulated securities with some fancier paint on it to distract people from that. There isn't much that's all that special about how it actually works.

4. Cryptocoins are not an alternative because there is no possible way to have trust in them. The REPUBLIC OF BITCOIN may not be able to buy a bunch of nukes, but Exchanges can get loving robbed to poo poo and all the owners of those can do is shrug. If the nation state that you are in ceases to work, you have much bigger issues than your loving Bitcoins, because you probably cannot use them for much. Buy some cans of beans, if you're going to go that route.

5. That's not a good thing, and if you sincerely believe that this valuation on something that is inherently worthless can continue forever, I have no idea what to tell you beyond that you should take an economics course. It's not doomsaying, it's just blunt economics. The valuation of the coin is nonsense. I've explained why to you several times,
with the main issue being difficulties in extracting large amounts of coins from the marketplace in USD along with inflations from false "USD" amounts on Exchanges which cannot be withdrawn from, and you've mostly just dodged past that.

6. I'm acting entirely in good faith in the sense that I honestly believe what I'm saying. The "Good for Bitcoin" quote was a joke. The rest of it was 100% my beliefs, tempered with academic knowledge(I read a book once, furthermore)alongside work experience. There are a lot of hangers-on who refuse to acknowledge that Bitcoin is an immensely volatile thing that's pretty much a scam, primarily shoving their points forward with the sunk cost fallacy. Bitcoin prices crash all the loving time, it's ridiculously volatile and its price is based on pretty much nothing because no real world market forces can effect it, as it has no product.

7. You've ignored the point entirely. Please stop doing that. The whole point is that it is nation free only by choice of those nations. There is nothing that inherently stops a nation from just loving taking over Bitcoin entirely on a whim. Calling it a nation free currency under those circumstances is silly.

8. You literally just cut off the second portion of that point, which is how it applies to Bitcoin; it doesn't matter if you know you're a scammer or not, you're still scamming people. Bitcoin does not and never can have any value. It has made nothing and represents nothing. The total pool of USD in circulation in Bitcoin is only what those who have put money into Bitcoin have put into it. This fundamentally differs from stocks because companies have other ways to make money. If you put money into a company which then starts making dildos, then sells those dildos for a profit, then your stocks are more valuable because more money has been brought into the system of that company by sales, so the company can pay increased dividends or has more assets to sell off in the event of closure. In Bitcoin, the only money that can ever exist in it is money that has been put into it. There is no "Mr. Bitcoin", but the confidence scam is something run by all of its users on one another; you cannot make money off of Bitcoin without that money having come from someone else that you have sold Bitcoin to. This is the fundamental problem. If you make a dollar from Bitcoin, someone else in the world must have one less dollar. If you make a dollar off a stock in Microsoft because they sold a certain amount of products and their stock has increased, then people have gained an item or service from them for their money. Bitcoin does not deal in products or investments, it does not make anything, it purely and only deals with taking money from one person and shoving it into another person's pocket. This is why it is a scam/scheme/whatever. When the valuation is based on nothing and there is nothing of worth being produced, numbers go up in a vacuum, but because it is a sealed off system of currency, it's just you throwing money into a pot with other people and hoping you take all the money out of the pot before everyone else does.

1. It feels like you are trying to not get the point here. The current existing system which is tracked to hell by banks, regulators, the fed , the secret service (they're the guys that go after counterfeit money), the transfer exchanges, Visa, the IRS is used for fraud and theft all the time. Do you know what people used to buy drugs and child porn before Coins? Money. I think you'll either need to provide some explanation of why you think increased scrutiny will make transactions impossible because I don't think you understand what you're saying, just repeating yourself here. What is going to change in 6-12 months with wider adoption that will suddenly make Bitcoin transactions not viable for gray market goods?

2. Please provide a point for me to respond to and I will

3. I went through the Tesla example, are you just ignoring that? The Tesla is 'new' if you're talking about "Can I use it for transport in a place there's no gas." Maybe you've got one of the fancy solar setups and guess what you can now tool around in your Tesla for a while, even if the pumps are dry. That's different from most cars. Is that scenario likely? Not really, but the difference is there. Now this was the example you provided to show that the Tesla is not new (we're talking about Bitcoins right) and then provided as proof that Bitcoins are the same as other investments. I'm really not following your point here, do you have one or are you just repeating that "Bitcoins are not new" without any substantive arguments?

4. This seems like you agreeing with me, I'm glad you understand that Cryptocurrencies are an alternative to nation state currency even though it was most presented in the most negative way possible ;)

5. I see it as an intangible, you see it as worthless. Exchanges were absolutely having issues doing withdrawals in USD about 6 months ago when that all went down. I haven't heard about any such issues for a long time, there haven't been disruptions to the exchanges in a while. The volume and valuation continues to grow. I guess we'll find out if / when the next round of Exchange shocks will occur, but I don't buy into it being a foregone conclusion.

6. Well in that case I agree that Bitcoin is very volatile, I do not feel that volatility makes it a scam.

7. No I feel the Nation Free point is quite important. Every single other currency is tied to the economy of some nation state. If you end up with some horrible circa 2008 level event where financial markets are freezing, Cryptocurrencies are pretty much the only thing outside of that ecosystem. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be affected, but it is precisely this difference that I'm trying to draw attention to.

8. Well I'm glad we actually got to a core disagreement, because that feels substantive: "If you make a dollar from Bitcoin, someone else in the world must have one less dollar." No. If you make a dollar from Bitcoin, a Dollar has been transferred from the Nation State monetary system into the cryptocurrency monetary system. That's what makes it different. Let me use your own sentence here. Bitcoin does not deal in products or investments, it does not make anything, it purely and only deals with taking money from one person and shoving it into another person's pocket. And that makes it better as a currency than those other ones that do entangle with all those secondary concerns.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000

evilweasel posted:

the people buying it now obviously, the people who don't sell, also the overwhelming majority of "investors" many people who got scammed, lost money, etc

Ok got it, made up people that don't exist for the sake of internet arguments!

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

Ham Sandwiches posted:

If you make a dollar from Bitcoin, a Dollar has been transferred from the Nation State monetary system into the cryptocurrency monetary system.

lol

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000

*Goon watches parade go by, confetti is falling, everyone is celebrating*

"look at all that suffering... I have to warn others"

Blade Runner
Aug 14, 2015

Ham Sandwiches posted:

1. It feels like you are trying to not get the point here. The current existing system which is tracked to hell by banks, regulators, the fed , the secret service (they're the guys that go after counterfeit money), the transfer exchanges, Visa, the IRS is used for fraud and theft all the time. Do you know what people used to buy drugs and child porn before Coins? Money. I think you'll either need to provide some explanation of why you think increased scrutiny will make transactions impossible because I don't think you understand what you're saying, just repeating yourself here. What is going to change in 6-12 months with wider adoption that will suddenly make Bitcoin transactions not viable for gray market goods?

2. Please provide a point for me to respond to and I will

3. I went through the Tesla example, are you just ignoring that? The Tesla is 'new' if you're talking about "Can I use it for transport in a place there's no gas." Maybe you've got one of the fancy solar setups and guess what you can now tool around in your Tesla for a while, even if the pumps are dry. That's different from most cars. Is that scenario likely? Not really, but the difference is there. Now this was the example you provided to show that the Tesla is not new (we're talking about Bitcoins right) and then provided as proof that Bitcoins are the same as other investments. I'm really not following your point here, do you have one or are you just repeating that "Bitcoins are not new" without any substantive arguments?

4. This seems like you agreeing with me, I'm glad you understand that Cryptocurrencies are an alternative to nation state currency even though it was most presented in the most negative way possible ;)

5. I see it as an intangible, you see it as worthless. Exchanges were absolutely having issues doing withdrawals in USD about 6 months ago when that all went down. I haven't heard about any such issues for a long time, there haven't been disruptions to the exchanges in a while. The volume and valuation continues to grow. I guess we'll find out if / when the next round of Exchange shocks will occur, but I don't buy into it being a foregone conclusion.

6. Well in that case I agree that Bitcoin is very volatile, I do not feel that volatility makes it a scam.

7. No I feel the Nation Free point is quite important. Every single other currency is tied to the economy of some nation state. If you end up with some horrible circa 2008 level event where financial markets are freezing, Cryptocurrencies are pretty much the only thing outside of that ecosystem. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be affected, but it is precisely this difference that I'm trying to draw attention to.

8. Well I'm glad we actually got to a core disagreement, because that feels substantive: "If you make a dollar from Bitcoin, someone else in the world must have one less dollar." No. If you make a dollar from Bitcoin, a Dollar has been transferred from the Nation State monetary system into the cryptocurrency monetary system. That's what makes it different. Let me use your own sentence here. Bitcoin does not deal in products or investments, it does not make anything, it purely and only deals with taking money from one person and shoving it into another person's pocket. And that makes it better as a currency than those other ones that do entangle with all those secondary concerns.

1. I work for one of the regulatory agencies in that list, so yes, I assure you, I know how the system works. Increased scrutiny will not make the system stop working, it will make the system just as good in that particular respect as any other currency. It will still be able to be used, but why would you if it works just as well(Or poorly.)as anything else for these transactions?

2.

quote:

In Bitcoin, there are no real loss mitigation strategies other than ceasing your use of Bitcoin; it's backed by nothing, and you have no recourse if people just...stop wanting to buy it, which is more likely than not considering there's really no reason to do so. The lack of regulation also rings of a gambling sort of situation.

3. You don't seem to want to understand the difference between something being categorically new and superficially new. Bitcoin is superficially new in that Bitcoin itself has not existed before, but not actually new because things exactly like Bitcoin have existed before and still exist. Bitcoins are indeed new in the most superficial and pedantic way of it, but they're not new in the sense of being an original idea. They're literally just rebranded securities with a bunch of retarded steps involved in buying them.

4. [Explains why what you're describing is stupid as poo poo and makes sense] "Ha ha thanks for agreeing with me! Looks like this is one of those 'self-owns' as the kids call them! Ha ha!"
Bitcoin is worthless as an alternative to currency because currency only works if it has some amount of confidence and trust behind it to back it(Say, a nation state who backs the integrity of it with their military and economy), or a certain amount of use inherent to it.(Say, bartering using cans of beans) Bitcoin has neither of these things, and you may as well be trying to go back to Wampum. At least you can touch that.

5. You don't, economics and the basic logic of trends in economic systems such as this does. Hard to decide who to trust, but "Number go up!!!!!!!!!!" is not and never will be a compelling argument after the realization of the actual details of the situation.

6. Volatility does not make Bitcoin a scam. Bitcoin being a scam makes it a scam, as I described in post 3, subsection 8 of my retarded Bitcoin screeches.

7. Cryptocurrencies would not make it out of that system because nothing would make it out of any financial system if the overarching financial system collapsed. Again, buy some canned food and invest in a survival bunker if that's the poo poo you're worried about, nobody will accept Bitcoins if the USD goes down.

8. That is what makes it a scam. You refuse to comprehend this almost to an insane degree, but yes, if you sell any amount of Bitcoin for a dollar, someone has one less dollar and one more part of a Bitcoin. Your 'using my sentence' to try and turn it around on me does not work, because that sentence explains why Bitcoin is loving retarded and then you just append "And this makes it better, actually." It does not make it better. The fact that it is fundamentally preying on someone's willingness to buy tokens because maybe they'll be worth more tomorrow within a closed system does not make it any better. Those secondary things are not concerns, they are the basic fundamentals of a currency system.

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

in case you didn't understand why i laughed at that, if you buy a bitcoin, your dollar doesn't vanish into the air and become a bitcoin, it means that you just gave your dollar to someone else and they gave you their bitcoin. no money moved from the dollar economy to the bitcoin economy.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000

Blade Runner posted:

1. I work for one of the regulatory agencies in that list, so yes, I assure you, I know how the system works. Increased scrutiny will not make the system stop working, it will make the system just as good in that particular respect as any other currency. It will still be able to be used, but why would you if it works just as well(Or poorly.)as anything else for these transactions?

2.In Bitcoin, there are no real loss mitigation strategies other than ceasing your use of Bitcoin; it's backed by nothing, and you have no recourse if people just...stop wanting to buy it, which is more likely than not considering there's really no reason to do so. The lack of regulation also rings of a gambling sort of situation.

3. You don't seem to want to understand the difference between something being categorically new and superficially new. Bitcoin is superficially new in that Bitcoin itself has not existed before, but not actually new because things exactly like Bitcoin have existed before and still exist. Bitcoins are indeed new in the most superficial and pedantic way of it, but they're not new in the sense of being an original idea. They're literally just rebranded securities with a bunch of retarded steps involved in buying them.

4. [Explains why what you're describing is stupid as poo poo and makes sense] "Ha ha thanks for agreeing with me! Looks like this is one of those 'self-owns' as the kids call them! Ha ha!"
Bitcoin is worthless as an alternative to currency because currency only works if it has some amount of confidence and trust behind it to back it(Say, a nation state who backs the integrity of it with their military and economy), or a certain amount of use inherent to it.(Say, bartering using cans of beans) Bitcoin has neither of these things, and you may as well be trying to go back to Wampum. At least you can touch that.

5. You don't, economics and the basic logic of trends in economic systems such as this does. Hard to decide who to trust, but "Number go up!!!!!!!!!!" is not and never will be a compelling argument after the realization of the actual details of the situation.

6. Volatility does not make Bitcoin a scam. Bitcoin being a scam makes it a scam, as I described in post 3, subsection 8 of my retarded Bitcoin screeches.

7. Cryptocurrencies would not make it out of that system because nothing would make it out of any financial system if the overarching financial system collapsed. Again, buy some canned food and invest in a survival bunker if that's the poo poo you're worried about, nobody will accept Bitcoins if the USD goes down.

8. That is what makes it a scam. You refuse to comprehend this almost to an insane degree, but yes, if you sell any amount of Bitcoin for a dollar, someone has one less dollar and one more part of a Bitcoin. Your 'using my sentence' to try and turn it around on me does not work, because that sentence explains why Bitcoin is loving retarded and then you just append "And this makes it better, actually." It does not make it better. The fact that it is fundamentally preying on someone's willingness to buy tokens because maybe they'll be worth more tomorrow within a closed system does not make it any better. Those secondary things are not concerns, they are the basic fundamentals of a currency system.

1. Guy entirely beholden to existing financial systems and literally gets paid from the status quo is unable to be open minded about threat to his livelyhood. Well I'll be! What a surprise.

So your original point was that coins were somehow less suitable than money for these gray transactions, and now it's that they're equivalent. No, my original point is that they're slightly better because they are digital and intangible and not tied to any particular nation state that can decide it feels strongly about how you use those coins and which transactions they will allow. There is nobody to tell you no at that level, it has to come from someone further down the chain. Whereas nation state currency can be a problem a variety of ways.

There was a time before the 1900s when nobody used fiat money. There may be a time in the future when fiat money is considered an anachronism. I can't say whether cryptocurrency will be the ones to displace it, but I sure wouldn't bet that the status quo created 100 / 200 years ago and that seems to be really really struggling to create wealth or value or anything resembling a good life for most people is going to remain exactly as it is. I guess you place your bets according to what you consider likely.

2. That's a risk you have to accept when choosing bitcoins, there is no loss mitigation strategy. I personally feel that there was no real loss mitigation strategy in 2008 when the financial system almost froze - everyone was almost hosed. How quickly people forget the savings and loan scandals of the 80s or how common bank collapse used to be. The existing financial system is fraught with all sorts of perils, so I don't buy into the idea that FDIC or whatever suddenly offsets how compromised the existing financial markets are, or how much existing nation states are struggling. I believe that the global economy is in fairly poor shape, and that countries are using various tools to try to prop up the numbers and mask the level of rot. I don't feel post 2008 we returned to a situation of health, we just exited the crisis. These are not good times, looking for alternatives is prudent not foolish.

3. Now there's a new term, categorically new and superficially new! Maybe we can stop arguing about whether cryptocoins are new because it doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. I am claiming that bitcoin is different than others forms of currency. I don't care whether it's new, just whether it has different strengths and weaknesses and whether that opens it up to different uses. I feel it does.

4. Bitcoin is an alternative to currency because it's more concrete than wampum despite not existing as a tangible good. Bitcoin's blockchain can be queried, the ledger that you tried to FUD up in 1. exists, all that stuff is absolutely different than barter or nation state currency. You may not be interested in using it for such transactions, but it's very odd to argue that other people don't see it differently - they do, and they use it for different things than traditional currency.

5. I'm not using number go up as an indicator of anything other than how much money people are taking out of their existing instruments and converting it to bitcoin. You can consider it as an indicator that more and more people are using it for more and more things. That's about all I get out of the rising price, that it represents increasing adoption and usefulness. So when it's worth twice as much I'd say it's about twice as widespread, from an "impact to the world" standpoint.

6. Ok and I guess we'll get back to arguing Bitcoin's scam status, but then let's stop using volatility as a sign that it's a scam since you just agreed that it's not a sign it's a scam

7. You don't know that, and having a few bitcoins in the case of a financial crisis is probably a sound hedge, just like keeping a few gold coins around is probably a good idea. In addition, for any local economies (like Venezula) that start suddenly imploding, there may be transactions that you can do with coins that would be difficult otherwise. Again, this is stuff that is actually happening in the real world and is a useful application, pretending otherwise does not change the fact that it is happening today, right now.

8. No I disagree with you and it's weird how vitriolic you're getting. I used your sentence presumably because you wouldn't disagree with the things you yourself just listed. And let me try appending a phrase again, hopefully it will be less upsetting this time: "And to me, that makes it different which means it may be a useful alternative in some situations, and something worth considering"

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!
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gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005
bitcoin is going to CHANGE EVERYTHING

gary oldmans diary
Sep 26, 2005
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.

“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”

“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”

“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”

The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”

“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”

“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”

He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”

“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”

I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.

“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.

“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.

“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”

It didn’t seem like they did.

“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”

Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.

I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.

“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.

Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.

“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.

I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”

He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.

“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”

“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.

“Because I was afraid.”

“Afraid?”

“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”

I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.

“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”

He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005

Ham Sandwiches posted:

Like I just wonder when you think back to this exchange months / years from now as people talk more and more about cryptocurrencies and use them and poo poo

I'll wish we had video of your cellphone ringing itself off the armrest of a empty recliner

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005

jon joe posted:

Hello I'd like to pitch my new crypto currency startup, sexcoin. The coins are currently not able to be exchanged for sex, but there are only 69 of them so buy now. The price per coin is "nice" repeated 3^^^^id# times.

you've missed the motorboat already friend

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titcoin

E:

wikipedia posted:

On May 29, 2017, Titcoin and its properties were acquired by the adult game development studio Joy-Toilet.

shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Oct 12, 2017

COMRADES
Apr 3, 2017

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
Tbh it's all about DogeCoin now.

Blade Runner
Aug 14, 2015

Ham Sandwiches posted:

1. Guy entirely beholden to existing financial systems and literally gets paid from the status quo is unable to be open minded about threat to his livelyhood. Well I'll be! What a surprise.

So your original point was that coins were somehow less suitable than money for these gray transactions, and now it's that they're equivalent. No, my original point is that they're slightly better because they are digital and intangible and not tied to any particular nation state that can decide it feels strongly about how you use those coins and which transactions they will allow. There is nobody to tell you no at that level, it has to come from someone further down the chain. Whereas nation state currency can be a problem a variety of ways.

There was a time before the 1900s when nobody used fiat money. There may be a time in the future when fiat money is considered an anachronism. I can't say whether cryptocurrency will be the ones to displace it, but I sure wouldn't bet that the status quo created 100 / 200 years ago and that seems to be really really struggling to create wealth or value or anything resembling a good life for most people is going to remain exactly as it is. I guess you place your bets according to what you consider likely.

2. That's a risk you have to accept when choosing bitcoins, there is no loss mitigation strategy. I personally feel that there was no real loss mitigation strategy in 2008 when the financial system almost froze - everyone was almost hosed. How quickly people forget the savings and loan scandals of the 80s or how common bank collapse used to be. The existing financial system is fraught with all sorts of perils, so I don't buy into the idea that FDIC or whatever suddenly offsets how compromised the existing financial markets are, or how much existing nation states are struggling. I believe that the global economy is in fairly poor shape, and that countries are using various tools to try to prop up the numbers and mask the level of rot. I don't feel post 2008 we returned to a situation of health, we just exited the crisis. These are not good times, looking for alternatives is prudent not foolish.

3. Now there's a new term, categorically new and superficially new! Maybe we can stop arguing about whether cryptocoins are new because it doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. I am claiming that bitcoin is different than others forms of currency. I don't care whether it's new, just whether it has different strengths and weaknesses and whether that opens it up to different uses. I feel it does.

4. Bitcoin is an alternative to currency because it's more concrete than wampum despite not existing as a tangible good. Bitcoin's blockchain can be queried, the ledger that you tried to FUD up in 1. exists, all that stuff is absolutely different than barter or nation state currency. You may not be interested in using it for such transactions, but it's very odd to argue that other people don't see it differently - they do, and they use it for different things than traditional currency.

5. I'm not using number go up as an indicator of anything other than how much money people are taking out of their existing instruments and converting it to bitcoin. You can consider it as an indicator that more and more people are using it for more and more things. That's about all I get out of the rising price, that it represents increasing adoption and usefulness. So when it's worth twice as much I'd say it's about twice as widespread, from an "impact to the world" standpoint.

6. Ok and I guess we'll get back to arguing Bitcoin's scam status, but then let's stop using volatility as a sign that it's a scam since you just agreed that it's not a sign it's a scam

7. You don't know that, and having a few bitcoins in the case of a financial crisis is probably a sound hedge, just like keeping a few gold coins around is probably a good idea. In addition, for any local economies (like Venezula) that start suddenly imploding, there may be transactions that you can do with coins that would be difficult otherwise. Again, this is stuff that is actually happening in the real world and is a useful application, pretending otherwise does not change the fact that it is happening today, right now.

8. No I disagree with you and it's weird how vitriolic you're getting. I used your sentence presumably because you wouldn't disagree with the things you yourself just listed. And let me try appending a phrase again, hopefully it will be less upsetting this time: "And to me, that makes it different which means it may be a useful alternative in some situations, and something worth considering"

1. "Man who works professionally with finances claims to know more about finances than other man, and tells other man why his pog coins are loving moronic nonsense" is a better way to phrase that, in my opinion, but you do you. There being a time before the 1900s when nobody used fiat money is a diversionary point that does nothing to prove why Bitcoin would be a suitable replacement.

2. You feel that because you do not know enough about finances to go into the complexities of the crisis. The Big Short is a pretty decent introduction in it, but it goes a little deeper than that. Your whole thing makes it very clear that you should not be buying Bitcoins, you should be buying guns and canned food; if the government or economy collapses, your Bitcoin will be useless.

3. It is not fundamentally different from unregulated securities in the way its markets behave. Disagree with that if you want.

4. No it isn't. There is nothing concrete about Bitcoin. The fact that it is an unregulated currency system is inherently unworkable; currency only exists because of regulations upon it.

5. The Bitcoin price is not based on anything but fairy dust, magic, and how hard the bots the Exchanges use are working. The market is unregulated and has no real experienced financial firms involved in it, so it's ridiculously easy to manipulate. I've explained this to you before, I'm not doing it again. Read over my other posts again if you want that.

6. Bitcoin is a scam. Volatility is a sign of a scam, but does not in itself make it a scam. Penny stocks are not a scam, but investing in them is relatively dumb. Bitcoin is a scam for many other reasons.

7. My inability to concretely predict the future is not a good reason to tie up a substantial amount of funds in internet poker chips. Remaining obtuse to the point that Bitcoins will be useless in any scenario that the US collapses is silly, and you keep doing it.

8. I'm becoming vitriolic because I dislike repeating myself. I was happy to explain these things to you once; it didn't take, and so the second or third time became more annoying.

Essentially, this ties back into what I told you at the very start; this has all been explained to you before. I am not saying anything new to you about these things. You do not engage with people, you simply dodge past and cherry pick parts of posts that you cannot adequately retaliate against. You have responded to half of what I've said, comprehended a quarter, and given any sort of rebuttals to about a tenth. This is not me insulting you, this is me telling you why goons pretty much just come in here to make fun of you while you flail your arms and ask why nobody is willing to debate with you; nobody is willing to debate with you not because you are saying things that hit at the core of their rotten financial systems and threaten their livelihoods, it's because it's like pulling teeth to get you to comprehend concepts that people are taught in basic financial courses, and you have this weird Dunning-Kruger effect going on. Most of your responses to posts detailing why Bitcoin does not work are literally just "No, you see, Bitcoin is good." and then you move on entirely, pleased with yourself for the terrifying own you have dealt out. The only response to this is to repeat the argument again until you get it, but you will not get it. You just refuse to engage with the knowledge, disagreeing with it so fundamentally that the concept of accepting it is impossible to you, but you think that your willingness to not curse at other people is the only thing that matters in an argument.

I'm not calling you stupid, because being stupid would honestly be fine. Plenty of stupid people got pulled into Bitcoin, and I feel sorry for them, because they're pretty much getting scammed. I think you're just someone who has an opinion on a thing that isn't supported by facts, and so you've dug in to the point where no amount of facts or knowledge could possibly pull you up from that opinion. If John Galt himself came in and told you that Bitcoin was bad, if it were just a literal fact that Bitcoin was bad, you would still refuse to budge on that point because you've dug in so much that it would be humiliating for you to do so. I don't doubt that you believe the things you're saying, I doubt that these things make any sense, and I'm tired of repeating myself again and again just to have you post pithy 'bitcoin good fiat bad' posts that don't adequately rebut anything, then to get confused and irate when people tell you that you have not actually argued against my posts, you've just said a bunch of nonsense and acted as though it were holy writ.

e: I'm pretty much just gonna be trolling and/or making fun of you in this thread, from here on. Effort posting has completed, because people were pretty much right when I started in on the effort posting; you're never gonna understand because you really don't want to understand.

Blade Runner fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Oct 12, 2017

Computer Serf
May 14, 2005
Buglord

COMRADES posted:

Tbh it's all about DogeCoin now.

The funny part is dogecoin outpreforms bitcoin because someone just slightly modified the source code and launched a new blokechain meanwhile a bunch of the bitcoin core devs work for some company that's profiting off of keeping bitcoin slow to build the lightning contraption sideblockchain channel network for going to the moon

Sailor Viy
Aug 4, 2013

And when I can swim no longer, if I have not reached Aslan's country, or shot over the edge of the world into some vast cataract, I shall sink with my nose to the sunrise.

Hey Ham Sandwiches. I don't have any strong opinions about bitcoins but I'm curious about your purpose in posting in this thread. From your posts it seems like you don't really enjoy the thread, in fact it seems to make you angry, yet you keep coming back and seemingly spend a lot of time writing posts. A lot of people argue on the internet but I've rarely seen someone put so much energy into such an uphill battle as you're doing here. So what is your goal here? What outcome are you trying to achieve with your posts?

I promise this is not a setup for some kind of gotcha to prove you are a brainwashed zealot or whatever. I'm just honestly curious about your motivations.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!
I work for Big Fiat, and that's why I hate bitscoin. I am afraid I can lose my job, which is printing money and also burning money.

Sentient Data
Aug 31, 2011

My molecule scrambler ray will disintegrate your armor with one blow!
This is a lot of words and too many posts for a bunch of nothing. Somebody pm me when my_crimes (Copy 1).rtf drops

Djeser
Mar 22, 2013


it's crow time again

mes_crimes.txt, file size: 0Kb

Satchel and Trunk
Nov 4, 2008
Please tell me more about the massive uptick in transactions that are now happening with Bitcoin, because from those graphs posted several days ago it looks like volume has completely flatlined.

divabot
Jun 17, 2015

A polite little mouse!

Ham Sandwiches posted:

I can't tell you how much I enjoyed your author page and seeing your photo. It made all your posts so much better. I couldn't understand why you were such an unpleasant prick, but now I do.

Wait a minute, are you making money from crypto pog bits while warning people off of them? What is your position in coins, have you disclosed it?

I posted about how I got £2100 from Amazon for the book, which is £2100 more than you have. It appears the way to make money from Bitcoin is not to touch it.

In one line above you're saying you saw the author page, in the second you're asking a question answered on it.

I asked you repeatedly (in this very thread) to disclose your own history with bitcoins and you demurred. This leads me to believe you have in fact lost repeatedly, which is why you're loudly blaming absolutely anyone other than yourself (e.g. "goons") for your failures in life. Because this is actually a completely standard pattern amongst the most fervent and argument-resistant Bitcoin advocates.

But, y'know, feel free to detail your personal Bitcoin success story. I've told you mine.

Pyromancer
Apr 29, 2011

This man must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart

divabot posted:

still pretty sure ham sandwiches is a serial victim, who's been burnt repeatedly on bitcoins, and it's all OUR FAULT for not believing HARD ENOUGH.

He's not wrong - since bitcoin is only worth as much as people think it is, by not believing in it hard enough we're all bringing the exchange rate down.

Pyromancer fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Oct 12, 2017

divabot
Jun 17, 2015

A polite little mouse!
if anyone here hasn't sufficiently suffered the wonder of Ham's argument style, start here, it's great.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Could be worse. He could pull a Seraph and continuously claim to have made millions of dollars. Then it turns out he's actually an unemployed child molester.

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009

I'll believe that shitcoins are worth several thousand dollars when someone proves that they have converted a significant amount (say $100k+ worth) of it into real, actual USD without getting robbed, stuck in limbo or crashing the market.

Powershift
Nov 23, 2009


Collateral Damage posted:

I'll believe that shitcoins are worth several thousand dollars when someone proves that they have converted a significant amount (say $100k+ worth) of it into real, actual USD without getting robbed, stuck in limbo or crashing the market.

Even if you can get money out you are, at best, directly facilitating drug money laundering and burning around 60 pounds of coal per on-blockchain bitcoin transaction.

divabot
Jun 17, 2015

A polite little mouse!

Terrible Opinions posted:

Could be worse. He could pull a Seraph and continuously claim to have made millions of dollars. Then it turns out he's actually an unemployed child molester.

[X] talks inane rubbish advocating bitcoins, continually self-owns
[X] talks inane rubbish about a video game, continually self-owns
[ ] has detailed and extensive views on age of consent issues
[ ] criminal record comes to light

completely unrelated

Blade Runner
Aug 14, 2015

Talking about your author picture is amusing because, as we all know, you must be handsome to be well versed in finance.

scott zoloft
Dec 7, 2015

yeah same
lol holy crap lois

divabot
Jun 17, 2015

A polite little mouse!

Blade Runner posted:

Talking about your author picture is amusing because, as we all know, you must be handsome to be well versed in finance.

i am tall and look convincing in a suit, but that photo was focus-grouped to be as boring-looking as possible

i literally don't know where i got that brown tie, it may be the most horrible item of clothing i own

i am not particularly well versed in finance and only avoided Gladwelling badly by virtue of knowing lots of smart people who do know their poo poo, but holy crap bitcoiners make it easy to be Einstein McHawking by comparison

scott zoloft
Dec 7, 2015

yeah same
could evenly coat a pretzel itt

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Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!
OP I would still love to buy a bit coin from you. I can pay in kind words and rock sticks (slightly licked).

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