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HerStuddMuffin posted:I know you're being facetious, but ham's tried that argument (and you are making fun of that) and it was bullshit even then. If you need another currency to handle day-to-day transaction, then that coin would displace bitcoin and remove it from the marketplace. It would only be good for bitcoin in the sense that it would put it out of its misery. Doing business in cryptocoin, whatever specific one you use, is already a hassle because it's like doing business in a foreign currency inside your own country, which is simply insane to expect of the general public. Have you seen tourists handling foreign currencies, regardless of nationality and country visited? To affirm that people would voluntarily use not one, but two or more kinds of weirdollars in their daily life is moronic beyond words. mining is a net loss, usually, once you factor in hardware costs and electricity. there is a specific amount generated per day, and you have to keep buying more and more hardware to keep your chances of winning some of them the same. if there's a gap between the "cost of production" and the "price" of a bitcoin that gets narrowed by people buying a ton more miners until the production cost is about the same as the price (because the amount generated is a constant, it can't crash to the price of production because the price of production doesn't dictate the amount of production)
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Oct 14, 2017 19:30
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Exactly how many tons of coal does it take to mine a bitcoin these days if a $5000 price tag is a net loss, holy loving poo poo!?
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Oct 14, 2017 19:34
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Here's a joke for you. How many Ham Sandwiches does it take to buy a bitcoin? None, because he's a lying cowardly bastard. Here's another joke. Bitcoin. Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:40
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HerStuddMuffin posted:Exactly how many tons of coal does it take to mine a bitcoin these days if a $5000 price tag is a net loss, holy loving poo poo!? its possible it's a net profit right now, but won't be for long but the bitcoin network wastes more electricity doing nothing than many small countries
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Oct 14, 2017 19:51
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HerStuddMuffin posted:I know you're being facetious, but ham's tried that argument (and you are making fun of that) and it was bullshit even then. If you need another currency to handle day-to-day transaction, then that coin would displace bitcoin and remove it from the marketplace. It would only be good for bitcoin in the sense that it would put it out of its misery. Doing business in cryptocoin, whatever specific one you use, is already a hassle because it's like doing business in a foreign currency inside your own country, which is simply insane to expect of the general public. Have you seen tourists handling foreign currencies, regardless of nationality and country visited? To affirm that people would voluntarily use not one, but two or more kinds of weirdollars in their daily life is moronic beyond words.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:15
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evilweasel posted:its possible it's a net profit right now, but won't be for long 100 years from now our great-grandchildren will hold up charts of the power usage of Bitcoin as a demonstration of the wasteful nature of previous generations right before the enemy cavalry charges their position defending one of the last stores of fresh water..
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Oct 14, 2017 20:16
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evilweasel posted:mining is a net loss, usually, once you factor in hardware costs and electricity. there is a specific amount generated per day, and you have to keep buying more and more hardware to keep your chances of winning some of them the same. if there's a gap between the "cost of production" and the "price" of a bitcoin that gets narrowed by people buying a ton more miners until the production cost is about the same as the price (because the amount generated is a constant, it can't crash to the price of production because the price of production doesn't dictate the amount of production)
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Oct 14, 2017 20:16
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Uranium 235 posted:Why do you assume that the Chinese want USD and not yuan? When he said "they want USD" he meant "they want their money outside of China", and usually when they want it outside of China this means "in the United States", which generally uses USD and not Yuan.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:21
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Uranium 235 posted:Why do you assume that the Chinese want USD and not yuan?
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Oct 14, 2017 20:25
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univbee posted:When he said "they want USD" he meant "they want their money outside of China", and usually when they want it outside of China this means "in the United States", which generally uses USD and not Yuan. I'm not doubting that wealthy Chinese hedge by investing in USD. Obviously they do. edit: also you're adding an unnecessary step... if you think they're buying BTC with yuan so they can then use BTC to buy a foreign currency, why do the latter? They can just hold BTC instead as a hedge against yuan and then buy more yuan back if it falls against BTC. Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 20:30
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Uranium 235 posted:Why do you assume that the Chinese want USD and not yuan? why do you assume all chinese want the same thing its not like everyone in china is buttmining
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Oct 14, 2017 20:47
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Why the gently caress do you think the law that Bitcoin laundering is circumventing exists?! Huge sums of money and people pour out of China constantly (and yes, a country of a billion people does also have a substantial number of people who are content staying put). It's been happening for so long America's first anti-immigration laws were targeting Chinese people specifically, and it's also a big part of the reason why so few can afford houses in places like San Francisco and Vancouver now. The Chinese people getting their assets out of China might not even know all that much about Bitcoin and just be using a service which has people doing the backend steps, with all they see or care about being "spend Yuan in China, get USD in America, no export controls". The creamy Bitcoin middle they don't know or care about, and if they do their only interest in it is getting it into the normal US financial system, they're not holding.
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Oct 14, 2017 20:54
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HerStuddMuffin posted:Why does it have to crash? The coins aren't going anywhere, they don't go bad like tulip bulbs, they're already not anywhere anyway since they're virtual, what's stopping them from sitting, unwanted, in a ghost town of an exchange, forever on offer at a high price nobody will ever pay because nobody even remembers they exist? Asking seriously, here. What's the effective difference then? A widget no one will buy is a worthless widget. The longer the widget sits unsold at that price the more people will then sell theirs at a lower price which will probably cause a domino effect as everyone rushes to undercut each other. If that goes on for a bit then suddenly everyone is in a panic and are rushing to liquidate at any price. Assuming anyone is buying at all ofc. There's usually a few bulls that get pulled in on the way down. COMRADES fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 21:16
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ITT: Goons masturbating for something that will never happen (btc collapsing), as I'm sure they've been doing continuously for 3 or more years. Meanwhile demand for Bitcoin has increased exponentially, which they continue to ignore or handwave away, naming anyone with a demand for this new asset an idiot.
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Oct 14, 2017 21:45
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evilweasel posted:why do you assume all chinese want the same thing
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Oct 14, 2017 21:45
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univbee posted:(and yes, a country of a billion people does also have a substantial number of people who are content staying put)
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Oct 14, 2017 21:58
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Ham Sandwitch posted:naming anyone with a demand for this new asset an idiot. I thought it was a currency...
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Oct 14, 2017 22:35
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Steen71 posted:I thought it was a currency...
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Oct 14, 2017 22:50
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Uranium 235 posted:Why do you assume that the Chinese want USD and not yuan? They want a fully convertible currency which the yuan isn't. iceaim fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 00:04
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Steen71 posted:I thought it was a currency... Sort of, as long as you can buy things with it it's a currency I guess. More importantly though it's a currency that's limited to 7 transactions per second. People might argue that it's somewhat more with Segwit, etc, but the reality is that Visa alone handled 1000 times that over 10 years ago. (I can't be arsed to google more recent numbers because it's not relevant.) And looking at (say) 1bn transactions per day for a truly global currency, there's no way to put that on a distributed blockchain like Bitcoin. And before I get shot down by zealots with stuff like Lightning, etc: none of that is in production. It's really more of a purely digital asset then, not unlike property in an MMO. As long as enough people believe it has value, you can exchange it for real currency or barter it for goods.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:05
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HerStuddMuffin posted:They're using mining as a way to get their wealth out of China. Why would anyone have to go through the trouble of running a mining operation for that? Just buy BTC for Yuan on one of the Chinese exchanges.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:10
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Ham Sandwitch posted:ITT: Goons masturbating for something that will never happen (btc collapsing), as I'm sure they've been doing continuously for 3 or more years. Meanwhile demand for Bitcoin has increased exponentially, which they continue to ignore or handwave away, naming anyone with a demand for this new asset an idiot. Pretty much. Plus nobody was buying products and services on the informal market with tulips. Will crypto-currency ever have mass appeal? Probably not, but there will be a niche of people who will use it for their needs. Like VR, it's not going to go away. Hi Jinx posted:Why would anyone have to go through the trouble of running a mining operation for that? Just buy BTC for Yuan on one of the Chinese exchanges. You mean the Chinese exchanges that Beijing just banned because they're freaked out about capital outflows? iceaim fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 00:10
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Paladinus posted:Here's a joke for you. How many Ham Sandwiches does it take to buy a bitcoin? None, because he's a lying cowardly bastard. Why'd the bitcoiner cross the road, roll in the mud, and cross back over? Because bitcoiners are dirty double crossers!  
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Oct 15, 2017 00:14
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Just remember if Bitcoin crashes and you aren't sure of how to buy drugs afterwards, always remember
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Oct 15, 2017 00:17
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iceaim posted:You mean the Chinese exchanges that Beijing just banned because they're freaked out about capital outflows? I meant those, yeah. I didn't know they were actually closed. If trading BTC is illegal though, I'd question the legality of mining Bitcoins as well. After all, if you can't buy BTC for Yuan, how is it legal to use Yuan to buy electricity to generate Bitcoins? But even if mining is not outright illegal, it still takes 3-4 months to get $1bn in mining rewards at current exchange rates (assuming they all go to the same person); it's a lot of money for sure but hardly THE way for the Chinese upper class to diversify. Forbes says the top 1.5m hold something like $24 trillion. Anyway, my point is that mining in China isn't likely to be some money-laundering scheme: it's actually reasonably profitable with cheap electricity.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:39
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Hi Jinx posted:Sort of, as long as you can buy things with it it's a currency I guess. More importantly though it's a currency that's limited to 7 transactions per second. People might argue that it's somewhat more with Segwit, etc, but the reality is that Visa alone handled 1000 times that over 10 years ago. (I can't be arsed to google more recent numbers because it's not relevant.) And looking at (say) 1bn transactions per day for a truly global currency, there's no way to put that on a distributed blockchain like Bitcoin. And before I get shot down by zealots with stuff like Lightning, etc: none of that is in production. Just some real simple math here to put the Bitcoin network into perspective. In real world terms the Bitcoin network is only able to handle about 3.2-3.5 transactions per second. If we assume that a cashier will average a single transaction every 60 seconds, then 210 cashiers (less than working a good size mall during a holiday rush) would generate about 3.5 transactions per second. So quite literally a larger mall in an urban area during a holiday rush could very easily generate 2x-3x what the entire Bitcoin network can handle.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:42
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Hi Jinx posted:I meant those, yeah. I didn't know they were actually closed. China told all the owners of the mining firms not to leave the country about a month ago. China is getting ready to clamp down on the miners the same way they did the exchanges. The Chinese state clearly does not approve of Bitcoin and is not going to simply turn a blind eye to such obvious organized crime.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:44
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Bardeh posted:So what is the critical event needed to make Bitcoin crash into the ground? It's poo poo, it's slow, it's bad as a store of value....but the price keeps going up. When or why is it going to crash? It probably won't ever "crash into the ground" ie become 0. There will always be a dedicated core of bag holders making wild price estimates, just as there are still people with "valuable" beanie babies
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Oct 15, 2017 00:53
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Hi Jinx posted:Why would anyone have to go through the trouble of running a mining operation for that? Just buy BTC for Yuan on one of the Chinese exchanges. The people with bitcoins don't want Yuan.
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Oct 15, 2017 00:54
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Prester Jane posted:China told all the owners of the mining firms not to leave the country about a month ago. China is getting ready to clamp down on the miners the same way they did the exchanges. The Chinese state clearly does not approve of Bitcoin and is not going to simply turn a blind eye to such obvious organized crime. Well that sucks for them. (The miners I mean.) It's going to be interesting to see what stance other large governments develop as BTC and shitcoins mature. The more they look like currency, the less likely they will be allowed to exist. No state would cede the fiat currency's power to something they can't control. I like the idea of cryptocurrencies and it'd be fun to see them succeed but I just don't see how that'd ever happen.
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Oct 15, 2017 01:06
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iceaim posted:You mean the Chinese exchanges that Beijing just banned because they're freaked out about capital outflows? edit: forever, that is Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 01:50
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Hey all, I'm beloved permabanned forums poster and actual bitcoin millionaire Seraph84. Here I am telling YOSPOS to buy Bitcoin back in August 2015, when they were worth only $231 each. They didn't listen then, and made their worthless "up Up UP!" comments, and that's exactly what bitcoin did. Most of you probably still won't listen now, but you should all buy Bitcoin and hold it so you can one day be rich like me. It only took 4 years of holding, it's not a long time really.
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Oct 15, 2017 02:39
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Uranium 235 posted:It's probably going to be a temporary ban to give the Chinese government time to figure out how to regulate the exchanges. They probably aren't closing the door to legal purchase of crypto assets. Apparently you have never even once observed how the Chinese state conducts business. China does not want its currency leaving its borders for a whole host of complicated reasons that the Chinese state views as essential to its ongoing existence. The Chinese state does not give the tiniest of fucks about "regulating" the exchanges because while the Chinese state may be corrupt and onerous it is not stupid and does not like its citizens subverting its will. Your assertion of the intentions of the Chinese state is based purely on hope and makes sense only if you understand literally nothing at all about what makes the Chinese state tick.
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Oct 15, 2017 02:50
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Prester Jane posted:Apparently you have never even once observed how the Chinese state conducts business. China does not want its currency leaving its borders for a whole host of complicated reasons that the Chinese state views as essential to its ongoing existence. The Chinese state does not give the tiniest of fucks about "regulating" the exchanges because while the Chinese state may be corrupt and onerous it is not stupid and does not like its citizens subverting its will. lol edit: btw it makes no difference to me whether china bans exchanges or not. i do not buy and hold bitcoin or other cryptos long term. i'm in USD 99% of the time and i trade, so volatility is good for me. i made money on the crash that was caused by the news breaking that china was going to force exchanges to close. my point here is that my opinion that china's ban is temporary is not based on wishful thinking, because china's ban was good for me in the short term and is neutral in the long term if it is permanent Uranium 235 fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 03:02
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Uranium 235 posted:my point here is that my opinion that china's ban is temporary is not based on wishful thinking, because china's ban was good for me in the short term and is neutral in the long term if it is permanent Your point is that China's ban is temporary because you profited off the ban is uhh...pretty much just strait up wishful thinking dude. Feel free to post a single piece of news or analysis from a mainstream source that gives any indication that the ban is temporary. If you are unable to do so it just means that all you have is wishful thinking. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 03:12
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Prester Jane posted:Your point is that China's ban is temporary because you profited off the ban is uhh...pretty much just strait up wishful thinking dude. quote:Feel free to post a single piece of news or analysis from a mainstream source that gives any indication that the ban is temporary. If you are unable to do so it just means that all you have is wishful thinking.
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Oct 15, 2017 03:36
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In the meantime, most Americans aren’t buying into bitcoin, but lots of mysterious foreigners — from far-away locations like Malaysia, Indonesia and other places where people go to disappear — are investing in it. also, the best part about bitcoin is bank of america can start using it to restart their failed drug money laundering system, because reasons. it is going to happen one day, maybe not today but one day. also, lol for money being backed by power bills to server farms.
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Oct 15, 2017 03:39
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Lime Tonics posted:In the meantime, most Americans aren’t buying into bitcoin, but lots of mysterious foreigners — from far-away locations like Malaysia, Indonesia and other places where people go to disappear — are investing in it. quote:also, lol for money being backed by power bills to server farms.
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Oct 15, 2017 03:46
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Okay you are correct Uranium, your assertion that the Chinese ban is temporary is not based on wishful thinking, it is instead based on literally nothing at all.
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Oct 15, 2017 04:00
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Hi Jinx posted:Well that sucks for them. (The miners I mean.) It's going to be interesting to see what stance other large governments develop as BTC and shitcoins mature. The more they look like currency, the less likely they will be allowed to exist. No state would cede the fiat currency's power to something they can't control. I like the idea of digital money that is secured by cryptographic signatures, but that is something that has already existed for half a century and is in use by all of the major financial institutions all around the world
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Oct 15, 2017 04:12
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