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Shoota_McG
Sep 8, 2004

Captain Invictus posted:

Name a game on the N64 that wasn't ugly. Star Fox 64? Maybe???

And that's your choice, but it's a poor one!

I don’t think you’ll catch me defending or praising the N64 in this lifetime.

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ExcessBLarg!
Sep 1, 2001

Waltzing Along posted:

Why was the SNES clocked so slow?
The SNES used an unusual CPU, the Ricoh 5A22 which was based on the WDC 65C816. The 65C816 was basically a 16-bit extension of the MOS 6502, the basis of the NES CPU (Ricoh 2A03). The only other (somewhat popular) machine that used the 65C816 was the Apple IIGS, and probably both used it, at least in part, because the 65C816 was backwards compatible with the 6502.

Now, clock speed with both the 6502 and 65C816 is a bit funny. Both CPUs could run at a relatively wide range of clock speeds, but the CPUs only have one general purpose register, and so nearly every computation requires reading from and writing the result to RAM. In the mid 70s, RAM access times were faster than CPU clock speeds so that wasn't a problem, but by the late 80s CPU clock speeds were faster than RAM access times. The SNES CPU runs at the same frequency as the NTSC colorburst, which probably has to do with timing the entire machine and its various busses to output pixels at the correct dot-clock rate. If they made the CPU faster it would've been pointless without faster (and more expensive) RAM. In fact, the SA1 accelerator chip (Super Mario RPG) was a faster clocked 65C816 with fast RAM.

In contrast, most consoles contemporary to the SNES used CPUs based on the Motorola 68000, which was also very popular in arcade hardware (Sega System 16, Capcom CPS, Neo Geo, etc.) and home computers (Amiga, Atari ST, Macintosh, etc.). The 68000 was generally a more capable CPU that had a plethora of registers, and so its clock speed wasn't so tightly coupled with RAM access times. At the time it was definitely the CPU of choice for systems that were expected to have significant computational requirements.

So why did Nintendo go with an oddball "underpowered" CPU in the SNES? It was probably a combination of reasons. For one, the SNES wasn't designed to have a fast CPU. It needed a 16-bit processor to access large ROM chips without having to resort to bank switching, but the "heavy lifting" was expected to be on the graphics and sound processors which were, at the time, superior to everything else on the market. They weren't planning on doing any "software rendering" like the kind done by early 3D polygonal games. Backwards compatibility with the 6502 was probably viewed as a benefit, both because they could reuse existing (assembly-based) logic routines from NES titles but also because it was a CPU architecture for which Nintendo programmers were already familiar.

As a business decision, Nintendo had a strong relationship with Ricoh as a CPU supplier, and Ricoh was probably able to source or fabricate the 65C816 core for cheaper or with a faster turnaround time, given that they already processes for producing 6502-based CPUs. Although the 68000 was ubiquitous, I don't think Ricoh ever produced one, and Nintendo moving to another supplier would put them at greater risk of chip shortages and potential strong-arming from their competitors.

ExcessBLarg! fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Oct 17, 2017

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk


Fuzz posted:

Level variety. Turtles in Time was loving crazy. I mean, come on, you fight ninja cowboys and a Cajun gator on a train in the old west, followed by fighting dinosaurs in a volcano, followed by hover boarding in a futuristic city, followed by...

The game is just batshit, even if you aren't like all of us 80s and 90s kids and love TMNT. There's a boss you fight by throwing dudes at the camera, it was literally the pinnacle of creative ideas applied to that era's beat em ups.

I always wished that TMNT 3: Manhattan Project on NES would have gotten a 16 bit port over to the SNES. it came out around the same time as TMNT IV hit the SNES but it was like twice as long and was even crazier than TMNT IV. it was a love letter to everything that was ever included in the TMNT canon up to that point, and was packed full of bosses and monsters, some of which maybe only had a cameo appearance in the TV show or comics. if you haven't played it before and you've got an NES classic laying around, give it a shot. IMO it's the best side-scrolling beat 'em up on the NES.

TheMadMilkman
Dec 10, 2007


I love this thread. This was honestly very interesting to read.

Manky
Mar 20, 2007


Fun Shoe
Agreed, thanks ExcessBLarg! Anything you want to post going into detail on the other chips the SNES used would be well-received :allears:

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here

Well, that makes sense. Thanks.

Rupert Buttermilk
Apr 15, 2007

🚣RowboatMan: ❄️Freezing time🕰️ is an old P.I. 🥧trick...

Freaking Crumbum posted:

I always wished that TMNT 3: Manhattan Project on NES would have gotten a 16 bit port over to the SNES. it came out around the same time as TMNT IV hit the SNES but it was like twice as long and was even crazier than TMNT IV. it was a love letter to everything that was ever included in the TMNT canon up to that point, and was packed full of bosses and monsters, some of which maybe only had a cameo appearance in the TV show or comics. if you haven't played it before and you've got an NES classic laying around, give it a shot. IMO it's the best side-scrolling beat 'em up on the NES.

THANK YOU!

Everyone seems to forget this one, instead opting for the 2nd. TMNT 3 took everything good from 2, made it better, and then lifted Manhattan up into the sky with it all. Great game, great music, and I agree; I wish it had gotten a 16-bit remake.

Shoota_McG
Sep 8, 2004
Great post Blarg, love reading about this stuff

Pablo Nergigante
Apr 16, 2002

I'm pretty sure the SNES was originally intended to be backwards compatible with the NES via a second cartridge slot or a cart adapter so that could also explain why they went with the Ricoh

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

Avatar brought to you by the TG Sanity fund

Pablo Gigante posted:

I'm pretty sure the SNES was originally intended to be backwards compatible with the NES via a second cartridge slot or a cart adapter so that could also explain why they went with the Ricoh

This was planned, yes. The Super Famicom almost had a Famicom adapter addition greenlit for it, and there are prototype photos floating around.


The SNES was odd in that it proved to Nintendo that hardware power wasn't what made a console successful, it was software and polish. This is the same methodology that continued to (and basically still espouse) for everything afterward, to varying levels of success.

ProjektorBoy
Jun 18, 2002

I FUCK LINEN IN MY SPARE TIME!
Grimey Drawer

ExcessBLarg! posted:

The SNES used an unusual CPU, the Ricoh 5A22 which was based on the WDC 65C816. The 65C816 was basically a 16-bit extension of the MOS 6502, the basis of the NES CPU (Ricoh 2A03). The only other (somewhat popular) machine that used the 65C816 was the Apple IIGS, and probably both used it, at least in part, because the 65C816 was backwards compatible with the 6502.

This makes me a bit salty that there was never any official backwards compatibility with the NES, as information like this suggests that the entire hardware-level operation of the NES was a mere subset of what the SNES could do.

Pablo Nergigante
Apr 16, 2002

Fuzz posted:

The SNES was odd in that it proved to Nintendo that hardware power wasn't what made a console successful, it was software and polish. This is the same methodology that continued to (and basically still espouse) for everything afterward, to varying levels of success.

Well clock speed is only a part of "hardware power", the SNES's graphical and sound capabilities were way beyond the competition at the time. Imagine releasing console with a sound chip based on real time interpolation of actual sound samples in TYOOL 1990.

Pablo Nergigante
Apr 16, 2002

Honestly the SNES sound chip is probably one of the most astonishing things ever put in a released console

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser


Nintendo asked a guy from Sony to make it, the guy brought it up to his bosses and they nixed it because they didn't want to be involved with the gaming market which they still saw as a fad.

He developed it anyway, on company time. They almost fired him, but he convinced some really high up this was worth pursuing. They made the deal with Nintendo and a couple years later the same guy is put in charge of PlayStation.

Nullsmack
Dec 7, 2001
Digital apocalypse

Pablo Gigante posted:

Honestly the SNES sound chip is probably one of the most astonishing things ever put in a released console

How so? Was it really that special?

Rupert Buttermilk
Apr 15, 2007

🚣RowboatMan: ❄️Freezing time🕰️ is an old P.I. 🥧trick...

Al Borland Corp. posted:

Nintendo asked a guy from Sony to make it, the guy brought it up to his bosses and they nixed it because they didn't want to be involved with the gaming market which they still saw as a fad.

He developed it anyway, on company time. They almost fired him, but he convinced some really high up this was worth pursuing. They made the deal with Nintendo and a couple years later the same guy is put in charge of PlayStation.

Ken Kutaragi? I literally watched this yesterday, for the first time, weird:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsJVqC0pPFY

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club



Nullsmack posted:

How so? Was it really that special?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leeU3ULOWII

YOU MAY BE MISSING SOME OF THE BENEFITS THAT STEREO COULD PROVIDE

kefkafloyd
Jun 8, 2006

What really knocked me out
Was her cheap sunglasses

Nullsmack posted:

How so? Was it really that special?

I can't think of another machine at the time that had 8 channel stereo hardware wavetable synthesis (except the Apple IIgs). The Neo-Geo's was closest, but it was still a souped up FM chip with some ADPCM channels. A powerful synth in its own right, but not quite the same, and the Neo-Geo cost a lot more.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!


Clever Betty
The snes sound chip pulling off stuff like pokey means business or dancing mad blew my god damned mind as a kid

Then again the NES soundchip could do this, so it had good breeding stock to be bred from :v:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZW_IecPNYk

Still one of the most impressive things I've ever seen a video game console do, is play that theme despite being, well, a fuckin' nintendo

Scrublord Prime
Nov 27, 2007


The SNES can play nigh-CD quality music too! ...except one minute of the stuff took up the entire cart and you wouldn't have any room for the game :v:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_60V8UdYEY

kefkafloyd
Jun 8, 2006

What really knocked me out
Was her cheap sunglasses
Also the Ensoniq chip in the IIgs was more powerful than the SNES, because it was basically a professional MIDI synth chip. The most common use of the SNES' sound chip was to make something analogous to trackers, which were more like self-contained music programs versus MIDI music that was played back with a wavetable. Trackers were made obsolete by large programmable wavetables (e.g. soundfonts in the AWE32/64 era) but I spent a lot of time in the 90s loving around with tracker software trying to program my own synths before I realized I had no talent for it.

SeANMcBAY
Jun 28, 2006

Look on the bright side.



Has anyone played around with Earthbound patches that restore cut/censored stuff from Mother 2? I just read a book that detailed the differences (which I’m now selling here in SA-Mart) and I’m interested in trying one. Would I replace the built in Earthbound rom or install it as an additional game?

Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it
Thanks for the tip way earlier in the thread about checking Target's store locator. The one near me randomly had it in stock this AM and I managed to snag the very last one. Early Christmas for me, and my kid who loves playing Mario Kart and SMW on the WiiU is going to go NUTS.

Rupert Buttermilk
Apr 15, 2007

🚣RowboatMan: ❄️Freezing time🕰️ is an old P.I. 🥧trick...

Captain Invictus posted:

The snes sound chip pulling off stuff like pokey means business or dancing mad blew my god damned mind as a kid

Then again the NES soundchip could do this, so it had good breeding stock to be bred from :v:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZW_IecPNYk

Still one of the most impressive things I've ever seen a video game console do, is play that theme despite being, well, a fuckin' nintendo

I have to give an insane amount of credit to the composer, though; This theme doesn't seem to be doing anything that the NES chip couldn't do with any other game, but it's composed and arranged in such a way that it takes full advantage of everything.

Check this one out, also expertly composed (and I'm only referring to the NA release, not the JP one with extra channels):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBYOpfpGilQ

EDIT: A better example of the composer just going nuts with the whole thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoblm9iTM3g

Rupert Buttermilk fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Oct 17, 2017

Dejawesp
Jan 8, 2017

You have to follow the beat!
Oh boy playing secret of mana again. I guess young me just killed every enemy on every screen because by the time I got to the second boss I was level 4 and had no GP for new armor so the boss knocked me down and then killed me before I could get up. 3 hits total I think.

enojy
Sep 11, 2001

bass rattle
stars out
the sky

TheMadMilkman posted:

I love this thread. This was honestly very interesting to read.

I got to "general purpose register" and started having Computer Architecture PTSD flashbacks.

Adeline Weishaupt
Oct 16, 2013

by Lowtax

Captain Invictus posted:

The snes sound chip pulling off stuff like pokey means business or dancing mad blew my god damned mind as a kid

Then again the NES soundchip could do this, so it had good breeding stock to be bred from :v:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZW_IecPNYk

Still one of the most impressive things I've ever seen a video game console do, is play that theme despite being, well, a fuckin' nintendo

Well, you shouldn't give too much credit to the NES' sound capabilities. A genius of Tim Follin's caliber could make a calculator sound incredible; and in a sense he actually did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-D24A_N4d4

And to get this thead back on topic, how about a sample of his SNES work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ODKKILZiYY

And on another on-topic note, the Sony published SNES sequel to Soltice is great, not as mind-blowing but its direction is equally as impressive considering how hardly any of its contemporaries wouldn't even approach this kind of atmospheric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW3bsU_9rwY


Seeing how he can take full advantage of how the SNES sound chip works; lets see if ha can prove that the SNES is what the Genesisn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqyEbu8cmMg

...well poo poo.

Phyresis
Nov 2, 2004

I can't sleep, I hope I stay awake

Cause I've been running, running, running all day

Long nights, no peace

I feel like everybody's eyes on me
Tim Follin is a consummate artist.

the classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J0H5ah1G7A

my personal favorite Follin bros. track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx9uLg6pYc0

Phyresis
Nov 2, 2004

I can't sleep, I hope I stay awake

Cause I've been running, running, running all day

Long nights, no peace

I feel like everybody's eyes on me
seriously, listen to Gambit's theme. Follin was way, way too good for the garbage ljn was shoveling out

Rupert Buttermilk
Apr 15, 2007

🚣RowboatMan: ❄️Freezing time🕰️ is an old P.I. 🥧trick...

Phyresis posted:

the garbage ljn was shoveling out

Who did the music for Friday the 13th? Not their best work, whomever it was.

Phyresis
Nov 2, 2004

I can't sleep, I hope I stay awake

Cause I've been running, running, running all day

Long nights, no peace

I feel like everybody's eyes on me
Friday's an ljn for sure but believe it or not it was developed by Atlus. Hirohiko Takayama was the composer, and some other guy (along with a freelance programmer) did literally everything else, directed, produced, did all the art, etc. Takayama-san also did the music for the first Megami Tensei game.

Erebus
Jul 13, 2001

Okay... Keep your head, Steve boy...

Weirdly enough I was just looking at an old (mid-90s) interview with Tim Follin the other day. I hadn't heard of the guy before, and mostly he came off like a miserable poo poo who hated his job.

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club



Phyresis posted:

Tim Follin is a consummate artist.
my personal favorite Follin bros. track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx9uLg6pYc0

This is one of my most favorite games because of the soundtrack. Every single level loving SLAYS!!!!!!

It's a pretty bad game tho... at least some levels.

sinepost
Nov 16, 2004

four o'clock and all's well
If you like those, there’s a good primer of Follin’s music here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=GC1dTzyb5Gs

SeANMcBAY
Jun 28, 2006

Look on the bright side.



Never realized the same person did all those amazing tracks. A shame they were put into such poo poo games.

Echophonic
Sep 16, 2005

ha;lp
Gun Saliva
I have what is probably a dumb question. My Classic shows up tomorrow and I'm trying to get my romset ready in hakchi. Games that get flagged by hakchi as problematic get the emulator changed on the command line, which I can see and makes sense. Other stuff, from what I'm reading, needs a --retroarch argument added to the command line, but I can't seem to figure out if it's supposed to be added to the end of a /bin/snes or bin/clover emulator call, since people only show the back half of the command. Or should I be doing /bin/clover --retroarch for problem games and not /bin/snes?

Bluemillion
Aug 18, 2008

I got your dispensers
right here
Is it possible for a normal human being to just like, buy one of these at a store yet? Or are the Hyperscalper A.I.'s still snapping them up?

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
More are supposedly being sent to stores but I've been checking a few different places a few times a week to no avail :( I haven't received any instocknow alerts lately or whatever that site is called.

I don't even want to hack it, I just want to play cool old two-player games with my wife.

E: I probably need to start checking on my lunch break or something instead of on my way home from work, but the couple of times I tried the lunch break obviously didn't work either. But Target still has their display up so I haven't lost hope!

C-Euro fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Oct 17, 2017

Ballz
Dec 16, 2003

it's mario time

Luck of the draw. They’re popping up in brick and mortar stores, but seem to be gone within a day. Online stock seems to go ridiculously fast, so your best bet may be to give Target or Best Buy a call every morning to see what’s up.

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Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here

Echophonic posted:

I have what is probably a dumb question. My Classic shows up tomorrow and I'm trying to get my romset ready in hakchi. Games that get flagged by hakchi as problematic get the emulator changed on the command line, which I can see and makes sense. Other stuff, from what I'm reading, needs a --retroarch argument added to the command line, but I can't seem to figure out if it's supposed to be added to the end of a /bin/snes or bin/clover emulator call, since people only show the back half of the command. Or should I be doing /bin/clover --retroarch for problem games and not /bin/snes?

I'm curious about this, too. I haven't added the --retroarch command because the tutorial I saw just had you change the command line itself. Like /SNES rather than whatever is there for the Classic emulator in order to point to the retroarch package/emulator. And this works.

Is there a difference between the two?

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