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That's what I love; they seem to be thoughtful, spiritual, gracious, mannered, and in a quest to better themselves and their knowledge. It's just nobody else can do that, in their view, and should gently caress off and die somewhere else
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Oct 17, 2017 18:47
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In a situation where they need to defend themselves and their people, killing everyone onboard but saving and returning the children is the best they could probably do. Every adult on that ship was a valid target in regards to defending Rana 3. The Krill can look into it however they want, but Mercer can clear his conscience knowing that he saved those children. Perhaps the Krill would see it as dishonorable that the children didn't die with the rest of the crew, or maybe they see the children as warriors, thus valid targets.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:51
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WampaLord posted:I'm kinda playing Devil's Advocate a bit, obviously I'm not condoning child murder, but it's a pretty interesting ethical question. If you can be effectively 100% sure that they're going to become your enemy, why not just deal with it now? Even if a child is 100% guaranteed to be an "enemy," say by perfect brainwashing or something, they are still, currently, children. They do not have developed moral senses, and they do not have any agency. They do what adults tell them and don't have the ability to tell when they're being told something wrong. Therefore they have no culpability, and there's no justification to kill them. All the adults on that ship were soldiers. Soldiers are typically cognizant of what they are complicit with. We don't know the Krill system, but it's likely they signed up and essentially agreed to make themselves legitimate targets by engaging in violent action against other people. Personally, I'm sympathetic to more radical pacifism- even though they're soldiers killing them needlessly is not good, perhaps they could have just fried the bridge crew and taken over the ship that way? Though a lot of that runs into issues of unknown ability. Maybe a plan like that wasn't possible. If you get down to it, if there was no way to save the children and the colony... Mercer probably would have killed the children to save the colony. And in any case all of this ignores the fact that their mission was an attempt at establishing peaceful relations with the Krill. It was built entirely on the notion that the future does not have to be like the present, so the premise that the kids will definitely grow up to be "enemies" is not the one presented in the show. You acknowledge that, but it's kind of the real crux of the moral dilemma in the show. But even outside of that context, killing kids is bad.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:23
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evilmiera posted:It is verifiably true in the sense that the Prophets are freaky timeless aliens with no proper concept of good and evil that messed with Bajorans for inscrutable purposes and somehow the moment this was revealed Bajorans didn't do a complete turn away from worshipping them but doubled down. I remember the time the Federation was like "No, Bajor, you can't become a member until you become euphoric because you are enlightened by your own intelligence." That was a good episode!  WampaLord posted:Ironically, TNG's Enterprise does the exact same thing. True. Galaxy-class spacecraft are not warships by design, however. Not officially. They're just so big that all that power can be rerouted for war purposes when required. You know, through the main deflector dish. Ooh yeah, and the whole separating the Saucer Section thing they hardly ever did. Probably the dish thing, though, with an inverted tachyon pulse Al Borland Corp. posted:No culture with Kira Nerys can be all that bad.  Cojawfee posted:In a situation where they need to defend themselves and their people, killing everyone onboard but saving and returning the children is the best they could probably do. Every adult on that ship was a valid target in regards to defending Rana 3. The Krill can look into it however they want, but Mercer can clear his conscience knowing that he saved those children. Perhaps the Krill would see it as dishonorable that the children didn't die with the rest of the crew, or maybe they see the children as warriors, thus valid targets. We will almost certainly revisit this plot point later. 
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Oct 17, 2017 19:26
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Why were there kids on a warship, in space
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Oct 17, 2017 19:26
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Zzulu posted:Why were there kids on a warship, in space Bad guys bad
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Oct 17, 2017 19:27
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So what, every warship has a drat school on it? Every warship they blow up has a ton of kids on it? what the gently caress
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Oct 17, 2017 19:30
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Perhaps it's a certain size or type? Or maybe that was even a science vessel of sorts, just the science they're doing is making a big experimental bomb and showing kids how effectively it cleans up human
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Oct 17, 2017 19:32
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Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Krill Destroyer. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out non Krills and destroy them, to boldly go, where no Krill has gone before.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:45
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adhuin posted:Space: the final frontier. Doing one-offs like this would own.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:49
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Majority Rule (Season 1, Episode 7) Thursday 26th October When two Union anthropologists go missing on a planet similar to 21st-century Earth, Ed sends a team led by Kelly to find them, but the mission quickly goes awry when they realize the society’s government is completely based on a public voting system to determine punishment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beLAuHcxlnY Looks like Lamarr’s spotlight episode.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:50
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Zzulu posted:So what, every warship has a drat school on it? Every warship they blow up has a ton of kids on it? what the gently caress If you are warlike religious zealots every ship is a warship. Why children are onboard can be answered by any one of dozens of social reasons.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:51
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I like when they were saying there were *FAMILIES* on the colony and one of the comic relief dudes was like "and I'm sure plenty of single people who don't want to die either" or something along those lines. Like some how human life has more value if you've formed a traditional family, or less if you have not, that's always felt like a pretty outdated view.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:52
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The_Doctor posted:Majority Rule One more episode, where everything would have been
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Oct 17, 2017 20:02
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It does feel weird that the Krill aren't willing to consider peace from a purely self-serving perspective. History is littered with peace treaties and even alliances between groups who thought each other to be subhuman devils Surely at least some Krill argue that the resources on Union-held worlds aren't worth the cost in lives obtaining those resources, even if they don't object to humans dying in the slightest
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Oct 17, 2017 20:44
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cheetah7071 posted:It does feel weird that the Krill aren't willing to consider peace from a purely self-serving perspective. History is littered with peace treaties and even alliances between groups who thought each other to be subhuman devils I mean, they just invented the verteron cascade, right? So clearly they aren't worried about whiping out all life on a planet from orbit. Now if only they could figure out how to defeat a mid-size science vessel with a huge destroyer.
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Oct 17, 2017 20:56
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Zzulu posted:Why were there kids on a warship, in space Didn't she refer to them as cadets?
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Oct 17, 2017 21:01
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cheetah7071 posted:Surely at least some Krill argue that the resources on Union-held worlds aren't worth the cost in lives obtaining those resources, even if they don't object to humans dying in the slightest Maybe there are like 20 quadrillion Krill around, so the cost of lives is comparatively small. Krill are konda notorious for that. Besides, a lot of wars are based on the sunk cost fallacity. “We lost way to much in this war to give up. We owe it to our fallen comrades to see it trough. Their deaths shall not be meaningless! We will avenge them.“ It's actually quite sad how many petty skirmishes grew into massive causalities like that. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 21:01
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Snak posted:Now if only they could figure out how to defeat a mid-size science vessel with a huge destroyer. I feel like the Krill don't really understand ingenuity when it comes to combat. They seem to be interested in just sitting still, facing the other ship, and lazily exchanging fire until one of them goes boom. Compare this to the Orville, whose bridge crew comes up with such plans as "do nutty piloting tricks, thread the needle, get some shots off, then throw a metric ton of nukes at the problem". In more horribly goony terms, the Krill are playing EVE Online, and the Union is a big fan of Freespace 2.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:07
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Why bother doing crazy rear end maneuvers if you're going to win handily in a slug fest and your opponent is currently engaged in one with you?
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Oct 17, 2017 21:13
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Kazinsal posted:thread the needle I'm sure you meant to post hug the donkey.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:23
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The_Doctor posted:Majority Rule Very interesting by the look of it. Though I would've hoped for more "alien" looks to things.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:54
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Yeah you can have 100% modern day earth just give everyone spots or something.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:18
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Zzulu posted:Why were there kids on a warship, in space Powder monkeys were aboard ships during the age of sail since they could fit in places larger crew members couldn't and avoid being shot while transporting gunpowder to cannon on deck. Midshipmen and cadets in the Royal Navy were also mostly minors.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:23
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah you can have 100% modern day earth just give everyone spots or something. Perhaps they have spots in... other places.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:36
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Zzulu posted:Why were there kids on a warship, in space We put 11 year olds on sailing ships going into battle. I have no problem whatsoever wrapping my head around an alien race taking kids that young and giving them real experience on a warship as a sort of military academy. EDIT: I can go either way on if their parents were on board. I can see them having their families on board, or just sending their kids off at that age for military experience. Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 22:53
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The Bloop posted:If you are warlike religious zealots every ship is a warship. Why children are onboard can be answered by any one of dozens of social reasons. Or biological. We don't know how Krill childhood works, maybe they need a substance excreted by their parents until they are 15 years old to live.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:14
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It's early, so hopefully they will give some of the other alien races some depth going forward.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:46
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I really liked the use of a handheld hologram for changing looks, instead of having a doctor perform cosmetic surgery to make you look like alien of the week.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:45
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Kingtheninja posted:I really liked the use of a handheld hologram for changing looks, instead of having a doctor perform cosmetic surgery to make you look like alien of the week. I think it's great that they're only using plot devices from tech they already explained OR tech they find in an episode. Very SG-1
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Oct 18, 2017 00:48
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Baronjutter posted:I like when they were saying there were *FAMILIES* on the colony and one of the comic relief dudes was like "and I'm sure plenty of single people who don't want to die either" or something along those lines. Like some how human life has more value if you've formed a traditional family, or less if you have not, that's always felt like a pretty outdated view. It's the presence of children at risk that heighten people's caution. Ed and Kelly's divorced-but-working-together is not traditional, but even childless me has become more protective of children in general as I get older. Like 20 year olds bumping sex parts definitely have a right to live. But kids even more so.
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Oct 18, 2017 01:03
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Brawnfire posted:I'll be honest, lots of times I don't even notice which thread I'm in anymore. That goes for more than just trek/Orville threads... It's all metadiscussion with repeat patterns now. Whatever you do, don't do an inverse tachyon pulse in any of the Trek/Orville/Discovery threads or we're all hosed.
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Oct 18, 2017 01:08
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If you cross the franchises, you'll collapse the timelines!
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Oct 18, 2017 01:19
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Too late!
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Oct 18, 2017 03:02
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Wow he looked even doughier then, usually that works in reverse for actors
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Oct 18, 2017 03:04
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Cojawfee posted:In a situation where they need to defend themselves and their people, killing everyone onboard but saving and returning the children is the best they could probably do. Every adult on that ship was a valid target in regards to defending Rana 3. The Krill can look into it however they want, but Mercer can clear his conscience knowing that he saved those children. Perhaps the Krill would see it as dishonorable that the children didn't die with the rest of the crew, or maybe they see the children as warriors, thus valid targets. Wasn't Rana 3 the planet slaughtered by the Husnock on TNG?
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Oct 18, 2017 03:35
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Cojawfee posted:In a situation where they need to defend themselves and their people, killing everyone onboard but saving and returning the children is the best they could probably do. Every adult on that ship was a valid target in regards to defending Rana 3. The Krill can look into it however they want, but Mercer can clear his conscience knowing that he saved those children. Perhaps the Krill would see it as dishonorable that the children didn't die with the rest of the crew, or maybe they see the children as warriors, thus valid targets. This sparked another thought, the kids might not actually know what happened. They kept the teacher as a POW and sent the kids back; the kids might only know that the crew was killed somehow because something went wrong somewhere, but they were spared because of the new guys. And then they were rescued or captured by a Union ship. I could be forgetting details or something though.
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Oct 18, 2017 03:40
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Wasn't Rana 3 the planet slaughtered by the Husnock on TNG? Rana 4, but drat, good eye. He really did them a favor.
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Oct 18, 2017 03:41
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Wasn't Rana 3 the planet slaughtered by the Husnock on TNG? That was Delta Rana 4 edit: ^ god damnit.
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Oct 18, 2017 03:48
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That is some next level Trek trivia knowhow.
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Oct 18, 2017 06:26
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